That's me in the corner, losing my religion

In My Humble Opinion
1

I’m not going to turn this into one of those super-long OPs where I dump out the overstuffed wallet of my mind and go through the scraps one by one until somebody tells me to get a blog. I don’t want to get too personal, but I do want to hear from other people and maybe put some things on the table for a moment.

I was raised Catholic, lopsidedly, not heavily indoctrinated, but certainly I went to church and Sunday school at least half the time. (The rest of the time I lived with my mother, who loves Jesus in a vague, hippyish way; if she has any thoughts on organized religion, I’ve never heard them). I was quite faithful until around ten, when some things started happening in my mind/emotions and then my life that led to my ultimate rejection of all things holy by age thirteen - though not all things mystic and irrational, but nevermind.

At some point I picked it up again, and started to wonder if there was a place in it for me after all. I suppose since then, that’s what I’ve been wondering. I went to a liberal Episcopal church for a while but something itched at me that I belonged in a Catholic church, that even if it didn’t want me, quite plainly did not want me, I couldn’t turn my back on it. How would it ever change if everyone did so? I read a lot, intellectualized a lot, formed fancy arguments to support my going against almost everything a good Catholic is supposed to believe. (“The list of things you have to believe to be Catholic,” a Catholic Jew I know told me when I brought this up, “is very short.” True. And yet…)

Well. Lately it’s just all falling to pieces. I can’t go to church anymore, I feel like a liar and a hypocrite. I feel, frankly, like it’s part of my own attempt to “fix” myself, ever ongoing, so I’ll be normalized. See, didn’t I say this wasn’t one of those OPs? Now look what I’ve done. :rolleyes: There are other things going on that I’m definitely not getting into, but suffice to say it’s part of an upheaval in my life.

The question is this: have you lost your religion? This is not about losing faith in God, or a conviction that the irrational and imaginary can be a healthy thing for the human mind to embrace alongside science, or any of that, but specifically about leaving your religion, losing organized religion entirely or converting. How did it happen? What was the context? When did you know for sure?

2

I was raised Christian over the course of years, my faith has been slowely eroded. I haven’t been to church in nearly a decade. I didn’t see the point in it. Even now when I read literature about christainity my eyes begin glazing over when all the “Praise God” stuff begins.

Then there’s the incredible hypocracy of so many christians, particulary when they act like they have a god-given right to interfere in everyone else’s life because others aren’t living up to their interpretation of the bible.

The fact I’m having trouble reconcieling certain things about the bible with other things, within the bible and logically.

So it’s a number of things, but I’ve pretty much reached the point where I’m seriously debating wether I’m still a christian or should just admit it and become an agnostic.

3

Yes. I was raised Christian (Methodist). I remember wondering when I was eight or nine, “There are all these different religions in the world- how do we know which one is right?” I never could accept that whole “all non-Christians go to hell” thing, nor the idea that Christians ought to be trying to convert non-Christians.

Around age 16, I realized that I just didn’t believe in Christianity. I think we have a whole lot less control over what we believe than some people think we do- or maybe that’s just me. I tried to make myself believe in Christianity, but I couldn’t. I tried being an atheist in college, but I realized I couldn’t make myself believe that, either.

In my last year of college, I met Mr. Neville. He’s Jewish, and I started learning about Judaism. I decided that Judaism was a good religious fit for me, so that’s what I am now. I don’t believe that one religion is right and all the others are wrong- just that some religions are a better fit for some people than others are, and that people should go with the religion they feel most at home in.

4

If you’re bound and determined to be Catholic, you could find an Old Catholic congregation. There’s one or more in just about any medium-sized or larger metro area. The you’ll be in Catholic Church, although I believe you’ll be in schism. Still better than being a Protestant, right?
I personally gave up on the whole endeavor, learned to stop worrying and became a Unitarian.

5

I believe the same thing, though I’m not sure about whether we can control what we believe. I think it’s possible, over time, to make very significant changes to how one thinks and behaves, but some things seem to be rooted pretty deeply. Sometimes due to upbringing, I suppose - certainly part of my attachment to the Church comes from that, but how much? Why does it feel so terribly dangerous to consider walking away again, as if I’m turning my back on part of myself? Is that just how it feels to leave one’s childhood religion behind? It didn’t feel this way last time, but I was a lot younger and full of fire then.

Did you have to “make” yourself believe in Judaism?

6

I make a distinction between immutable beliefs and ones I can change. But my immutable beliefs don’t all come from my upbringing. My belief that there is a God does. I’m not sure where I picked up a belief in reincarnation, but I’d find them both just about equally hard to give up.

Catholicism (as I understand it) isn’t just a faith, it’s a culture as well, kind of like Judaism. I didn’t really have that same experience, because Methodism doesn’t have that strong cultural component. There are a lot of Jews who self-identify as “cultural Jews”- they don’t believe in the religious aspects of Judaism, but they still identify themselves as Jews.

No, I found that it fit pretty well with the beliefs I have that I can’t change. I adopted a few new ones, and quite a few new practices, but at least Judaism is compatible with my beliefs.

7

See, the Unitarian thing is appealing, but again it feels ‘wrong’ to me. Not that I think even for a second there’s anything wrong with it for others, because I don’t. But for me it feels like…a cop-out, maybe? The Old Catholic thing is definitely the opposite of my direction. :wink:

8

I was raised in a very conservative Calvinist Protestant denomination (but not quite at the no dancing, no pants on women level of conservative). Even as a kid I was troubled at the thought that non-Christians went to hell - especially those who were raised in areas where there was no Christianity - and at the emphasis on predestination in our particular denomination. I was also sickened at the “traditional” gender roles emphasis, and began “escaping” from the sermons by reading the Bible over and over. Since our church believed in a fairly literal interpretation of the Bible and definitely its infalliability, this caused me to become even more troubled as I picked out inconsistencies. Finally in our teenage years, my sister and I started refusing to go to church any longer. We ended up joining a very liberal denomination of Christianity, the United Church of Christ, but I didn’t really bother attending church during and after college. I’m not entirely sure what I believe these days.

9

Does that bother you, or are you comfortable not knowing? For me, some days are easier than others. Kinda sounds like an addiction, doesn’t it? :eek:

10

I’ve moved in and out of religious observance throughout my life.

Background: My parents were not religiously observant in any way. They both distrust organized religion, although they both regard themselves as “spiritual” peoplw, i.e., one aware of themselves as part of something larger, and mindful that the world may move by the power of Something not entirely within their understanding. So, I didn’t grow up religious. I attended a religious school very briefly, until I was expelled halfway through kindergarten for being too much of a handful.

I tend to believe that if you undertake religious observance, you buy the whole thing or you don’t do it at all. This does NOT mean that I believe orthodoxy is the only valid form of religious observance or belief. I simply mean that it’s silly and counterproductive to say, “I’m a (X) but I don’t believe (core belief of X).” also have no patience for people who say, “Well, I don’t like that teaching either, but that’s just the way it is.” I also know that’s not how it works for a lot of people. There’s the dogma of a religion - the theory, if you will - and then there’s the culture, the practice, and the community. This is why cthiax can see the Catholic church as both unwelcoming and as home.

So, like I said, I came from a non-religious family, but I was also brought up with a pretty solid understanding of the core teachings of the most popular religions. I was simply never able to accept basic Christian theology as believable, so I wasn’t a very effective Christian. I can’t say I lost my religion then, because I never really had it. Overall I found Jewish theology more satisfying.

In college, I dated and planned to marry a Muslim. I tried to reconcile my own beliefs and understanding of the natural world with basic Islamic teaching. But I could not make myself comfortable with the cultural side of Islam as it was presented to me. I heard too many things which simply did not jibe with my own experience. I don’t think I had a “moment” where I lost that faith. Like a ring that doesn’t fit, it simply slipped off when I wasn’t paying attention.

cwPartner was beginning to get back into being conspicuously Jewish when we met. I was happy to go along, since I kept coming back to Judaism as the best fit for what I observed to be true. We worked our way through it together. Both of us find orthodoxy unsatisfactory both in its theology and the culture as it was presented to us. So we just didn’t go there. We were more comfortable as part of a Reform congregation. We had less trouble with the theology, but ultimately were not satisfied by the practice. We found Reconstructionist Judaism to be a good fit and we’ve been members of an RJ congregation for many years.

The past couple of years I’ve realized that even that “good fit” isn’t a good *enough * fit. Increasingly, I find that the things I love about religious observance don’t, or oughtn’t to, have much to do with G-d or the supernatural. I tend to use “it’s my religion” to justify things that I would believe or do even if I weren’t religious. Shabbat observance, for example. It’s good, in and of itself, to insist that one day a week I can refuse to obsess over money and work and concentrate on paying full attention to my family. But it’s a lot easier to say at work, “I can’t do that for you on Saturday because of my religion,” than it is to say, “I won’t do that for you on Saturday because that’s the day that I give to my family, and you can’t have it.”

Again, there hasn’t been an “aha” moment here. If Islam was like a ring that didn’t fit, RJ is more like a shirt I’m outgrowing. Once it was too big for me, but I grew into it. For a while it fit perfectly and I wore it everywhere. One day I’ll put it on and discover that I just can’t get the front to button any more.

11

Does it seem like a cop-out because there’s less obvious observance and ritual? Perhaps you feel more like it’s “yours” if you have to work at it? From reading and talking, I’d say a lot of Orthodox Jewish people feel that all the extra work of observance makes them feel more engaged in their religion. Perhaps it’s the same way with you and Catholicism.

I found that one of the things that made Reconstructionist Judaism more satisfying to me was its acceptance of traditional ritual even as it departs from traditional theology and culture. When we were part of the Reform congregation, cwPartner and I were frustrated by the congregation’s pervasive distaste for ritual. Going to shul didn’t feel much different from going to an economics lecture, and our home life wasn’t distinctively Jewish, either. In the RJ congregation, we could immerse ourselves in ritual and really get the sense that our time in services was very different from our time outside of services. Home observance is also encouraged, and our home IS rather obviously Jewish now.

Is there a Christian equivalent to this? Could you find a stream of Christianity that has the ritual that you find comforting, but without the theology or culture that you find alienating?

12

I think I’m more uncomfortable with not “choosing”; it’s like I’ve left something undone. My old church provided a lot of structure in that you were supposed to just believe what you were taught, so at least there was some certainity there. At least, there was supposed to be, but I began questioning and doubting, and frankly not really liking their concept of God. I think there’s something out there, though I’m pretty sure it’s not the “big bearded guy on a throne” that you get from a lot of Christian teachings.

I’ve heard Catholicism can be especially hard to leave; that it’s like trying to reject a culture and heritage as well. My husband is a mostly-ex-Catholic but can’t seem to attend another church, at least not yet.

13

I was also raised unchurched-my mother a nominal Presbyterian, my Dad a lapsed Episcopalian. My husband I joined the local community church after the birth of our first child.

At first, I really liked it. It felt like a community and a home.

But then…that wasn’t enough. It was enough in and of itself–we were quite active and had a good network of friends etc. But it seemed so surface to me. I wanted more intellectual debate about religious principles and theology. I didn’t get it.

Sadly (and I mean that as a reflection on me) I grew tired of always being Martha and never Mary. God knows there is alot of work to be done, and volunteers are always needed, but to me it was just a replication of home (monitoring and helping 3 kids) and work(monitoring and helping pts). I didn’t feel fed–and the declarations of Jesus loving me were nice and all, but still.

So, I sort of stopped going. I fear we ahve become Chreasters–and I can take or leave Easter. I just never got the connection between Christ being a teacher and a prophet but also having to die for my sins. How that redeems me in any way (and why I would want to worship a God who requires such a sacrifice) does not resonate with me.

And yet, like the OP, I am drawn to a spiritual sense–I “get” transcendence and the power of myth and faith. I also am taken with the beauty of the remoteness of the Divine–something very out of step in today’s Christian world. It seems to me that folks want Jesus to be your friend, when instead they should be trembling at the idea of Him.

Sorry to ramble on, just some thoughts.

14

I believed in God until the rise of the Moral Majority. Then I couldn’t believe that God would in any way, shape or form associate with them and I became an atheist. (Hey, I was only 15 and given the choice between Jesus and Rock n’ Roll, guess what I was going to chose.)

Something happened, but I had a memory blankout. All I can remember was that, due to being a Led Zeppelin fan, I had read a great deal about Aliester Crowley and this had something to do with whatever incident that led me to believe in God again. A broken bedroom clock was also involved.

A year later I was sitting in my Latin class. I wondered “What is God, really?” Suddenly I felt that I was leaving my body and at the same time I was aware of something powerful beyond description. It was so powerful that I realized it would destroy me if I acknowledged it. Not wanting to be destroyed, I shut off my mind. I can’t even tell you how terrifying that thing was.

I’m an agnostic now.Several members of my family have found religion,but I’m still pretty wary.

15

Have you talked to your priest? Just because it isn’t feeling right, right now, doesn’t mean that you can’t regain what you’er losing. Introspection isn’t a bad thing - trying to figure out what is going on.

I’ve been having trouble recently with prayer, and am a little ticked off at God right now. My priest friend, who is my spiritual advisor, tells me to keep praying, but that seems a little weak.

In the end, you make make your way away from the Church, at least for a while. But if it’s something you feel is worthwhile, it’s worth working to save.

StG

16

I don’t have a priest. I haven’t known a priest I could even begin to feel comfortable talking to in years. What can I say? Sorry, Father, I don’t think God meant me to be straight. How do you go about finding a good priest, anyway? The churches in my town…yeah, I don’t exactly fit in, believe me.

17

My priest friend is actually an internet friend I met at the Bronze, the original Buffy the Vampire Slayer board. We’ve been corresponding for 8 years. He’s a teacher at Catholic prep school - I listen to him complain about the school administration, his travails with his publisher, he listens to me complain about my old parish priest, the awful choir at my new parish, my migraines, other stuff. We’re friends. Friends who can talk seriously about God.

I know you feel on the outs because of your sexual orientation, but I’ve had parish council presidents who were openly gay. Jim’s partner works for the Diocesan newspaper. If you feel unwelcome at your parish, you may need to find another.

StG

18

My eldest brother was the most important influence on me, spiritually. He was eight years my senior and an atheist, at least from the time at which I became mature enough to care about those things. I suppose that the above tells a good bit about my spiritual outlook by itself.

My parents were not devout Christians in the sense of partaking in many church activities, saying grace at meals, and thanking Jesus for every little thing that goes according to plan*. But we did go to church every week (protestant Disciples of Christ), I was baptized at ten or eleven, and my parents just assumed everyone was religious and that they’d done something wrong for my eldest brother to proclaim himself a believer of nothing.**

My memory of childhood – and in general – is pretty poor; I can’t tell you whether my loss of spirituality is something that happened gradually, in distinct doses, or all at once. Lord knows I never really talked about it with anyone, even with my brother; his influence was indirect. But this isn’t about loss of faith or spirituality – it’s about loss of religion.

I lost it as a young teenager. By whatever mechanism I had lost my faith in the Christian God, it had happened by the time I was thirteen; and at that point I saw no choice but to stop going to church. My parents tried to force me at first, but their own religion was not of a deep enough sort that they thought the battle much worth fighting.

Except at holidays. Heh. Those were fun.

  • We had a neighbor like this. She would thank Jesus for being able to walk up the stairs without incident. Am I joking? I wish. It was enough Jesus talk for a lifetime, for all of us.

** My whole family is like this; they don’t seem to care what sort of religion you have, as long as you have it. My protestant grandmother has pleaded with me to try other churches. Catholic, maybe? Judaism? If I told everyone tomorrow that I was following Shinto they’d all breathe a sigh of relief.

19

My mom is/was like this, especially when I was in college and newly not-attending. At one point I lived a half-block from a synagogue, and she asked if I wouldn’t at least go there and sit unnoticed in the back or something. Knowing how small the place was and at least enough about Judaism to realize I might run into problems with dress code and other issues, I just kind of raised my eyebrow and said I didn’t think that was a good idea.

20

It’s not just feeling on the outs because I’m queer, and I’ve tried other parishes. It’s feeling on the outs because I don’t agree with so many issues which I actually believe spring from important tenants, like birth control. In my quest to believe in the Church, believe me, I’ve bent my head around the issue. I know why Catholics think that way, and I know why it makes sense for them to, but the truth is I’ve never believed it was right or good. No matter how I try to make myself think otherwise, how I rationalize and say things like ‘well, it’s only necessary for Catholics’ or whatever, part of me just feels that being opposed to abortion and birth control and gay adoption is criminal. Admitting that feels kind of great, actually.

I could technically believe what I do and be a Catholic, and that is what I had been trying. But more and more it feels wrong. Either the magic (mysticism, ritual, etc, based in the principles behind the ban on ‘life-destroying’ acts) works or it doesn’t. If it does, then they’re right about queers and birth control and women priests. And I do not believe they are, so the magic must be broken.

Does that make sense as a line of thought? Because I know I’m confused as hell. Which of course I’m also afraid of, but frankly there’s actually very little fear in me that I’m letting God down if I do leave left…or is there?

Your gay friends in the Church, are they celibate? Do they repent? Could their marriages be blessed by a priest in their own faith, in a Church, with the approval of Rome? As long as the answer to this last question is ‘No’, how can I, how can I continue to be a Catholic?

Sorry. I told myself not to do this, and here I am doing it. But I really do want to pick the brains of other Dopers on this subject, because hanging out around here has actually been a part of my religious contemplations in the last couple years.