I was quite shocked to find out today that there is apparently a large following to the idea that the the events of 9/11 were planned and intentional…by our own administration.
Now this comes off to me as even more wacky than most conspiracy jabber, but the guy I talked to seem to have some very specific “facts” about how the physics of the buildings collapse was not consistent with what would happen given the circumstances of planes crashing into them. The popular theory seems to be specifically placed and well timed explosives. I pretty much stopped listening after he said there was never even a plane crash at the pentagon and such…I find it pretty offensive.
My question is if there is ANY basis at all for the claims, is there anything the least bit sketchy about the way in which the buildings were destroyed? I am expecting a pretty resounding no, but any clues into the thought processes of these people would be great. If you are a theorist yourself your input would be especially helpful.
I do believe it is quite possible the administration ignored possible warnings, but if there is any indication that they were actually involved in it for political or economic gain, please throw it out there…humor me.
Watching this thing develop over the past five years has been amazing. I’ve seen people argue that the planes that hit the WTC/Pentagon’s were not the planes that were missing. Those planes are… elsewhere.
Here’s a site that is pro-conspiracy, but without too much of the overt kookiness: http://www.911research.com/ I will note that it uses links in the same way that conspiracy theorists used to use CAPITAL LETTERS to emphasise their POINTS.
You will note that the 911 conspriacy guys have been completely unable to get one single structural engineer to support them on their ‘should’na falling like that’ routine. The whole 911 conspiracy routine is based on most people not understanding how buildings fail.
I recall the OK city bombing conspiracy crowd lost a lot of steam with McVeigh admitted that he did the deed on nationwide television. Sadly, taking credit for the deed by OBl has only made some of the conspiracy believers stonger.
Here’s a good site to debunk a lot of the nonsense:
Are you sure about that?
See the Scholars for 9/11 Truth list of members, which includes engineers, architects, physicists, professors, attorneys, PhDs, etc. All of them support (or have attached their names to an organization that supports) the case that the airplane fuel fires do not explain the WTC towers’ collapse.
I am not going to argue in favor of or against a 9/11 conspiracy as I am not (yet) a professional engineer and have not thoroughly researched the issues surrounding the attacks. I just wanted to provide the information that some legitimate experts are on the side of the conspiracists. I was once employed by one the architects on the above linked list. He disputes the debunking attempts by Popular Mechanics and www.911myths.com and others. He claims the Bush administration was motivated to attack Afghanistan because the Taliban did not wish to cooperate with the US in building a trans-Afghanistan oil pipeline. IIRC, such a pipeline apparently would be crucial in providing industrialized nations access to petroleum reserves beneath the Caspian Sea. Email me and perhaps I can provide a link to the research of my former boss (the mods may not approve of me posting a link to a commercial site).
So, he’s basing his professional judgement because of a belief about a possible trans-Afghanistan oil pipeline not being built?
Well… since we’ve showed them that American oil interests are not to be thwarted (a message apparently delivered by blowing up two of our own office buildings (and damaging a third), if that makes any sense), has that pipeline been built already?
Apparently not, according to the link, last updated February 13th, 2006.
I can find no evidence that the pipeline has been built at all… all stories about it peeter out around 2004.
Absolutely. Find me the structural engineer amongst the ‘scholars’ and I will apoligze fully.
Whatkind of engineers? Not structural, probably not even civil. Any demolition experts? Sorry, but physics profs don’t impress me for dealing with this kind of stuff. Attorneys? Don’t make me laugh.
I notice they are rather coy about what their PHd’s are in. They seem to almost hiding it. One of them, David Ray Griffin, seems to be a Philosphy Phd. Excuse me, but I’ll get my building info from the guys that do it.
Architects? Closer, but not ones I would discuss building faiulure with. Also, being the son of an architect, I know that there are many fields of architecture.
Meaning nothing if they are not properly trained experts in a relevant field. I really am not impressed that a Philosophy professor says the buildings didn’t fall the way just about every structural engineer did.
And know this: Engineers study failure. They learn from it.
They are not really experts in the relevant fields.
Yes, I know. I took courses in failure analysis taught at an ABET accredited engineering program.
It is convenient that the rubble left by the WTC collapse was cleaned up fast enough that a detailed failure analysis was not possible.
Yep.
The focus of most of these ‘experts’ is not on the WTC collapse; many of them are ‘experts’ in other areas (such as communication, politics, history, whatever, etc) who believe there is more than meets the regarding the 9/11 attacks.
I know of a couple of them in real life actually, but they would be reluctant to stick their heads out publicly. Yes, I realize my statement will not be convincing to you and I don’t blame you, frankly.
Mark Loizeaux, president of Controlled Demoliton, Inc., doesn’t believe the buildings were imploded. This is a guy who implodes buildings for a living.
My personal belief : The Bushites didn’t actually do it; they just stood back and let it happen, so they would have a propaganda tool. It worked quite well.
Of all the stupid conspiracy theories out there, 9/11 conspiracy theories have got to be the stupidest. Thousands and thousands of people saw the planes hit the towers. Are they all making it up? I know someone who saw the plane hit the Pentagon. Is he making it up?
Jesus tap-dancing Christ, you’re making the moon hoax people look sane.
Lute Skywatcher, I am well aware that most legit experts do not support an organized demolition theory. I personally don’t see strong evidence for the case of an organized demolition. However, I do not see that a WTC collapse caused by airplane fuel fires rules out a conspiracy.
I am not a conspiracy theorist myself, but am willing to remain open-minded. Many stories out there on the net supporting conspiracy theories are ridiculous. On the other hand some debunking attempts are incredibly weak as well…such as Popular Mechanic’s attempt to explain the collapse of WTC building #7.
So, your “rebuttal” is an admission that the Afghan pipeline did not, in fact, materialize.
What am I missing here? Because a pipeline deal was being thwarted, Bush “allows”/“blames” an Afghanistan terror organization for blowing up the WTC and Pentagon with hijacked (or not) airplanes (or not) so he can invade Afghanistan (and Iraq!) so that the pipeline can be…
cancelled?
And then you bring up another pipeline plan, one that is falling into the same bureaucratic morass?
Aren’t conspiracy plans… you know… successful? JFK was killed. The US was duped into believing we landed on the moon. Israel does exist.
One question that I’ve never been able to get a conspiracy theorist to provide an answer to (and I mean an answer, when I bring this up, they just stand there, gaped mouth and quickly change the subject): If there was a conspiracy of some kind, how is it that TPTB are able to keep it silenced up when they can’t conceal photographs from Abu Graib, torture accounts from Gitmo, the fact that the intel forces knew something (if not exactly what or when) was going to happen prior to 9/11, or even hide the ID of CIA agents? You can’t even realistically claim that all those are deliberate leaks, since they bring attention to the very things that TPTB would most like to keep quiet, and would add to the number of people who know “the secret” thus increasing the odds of someone blabbing “the truth.”
Finally, what good does it do to know “the truth” if there is, in fact, a conspiracy? Given the kind of power that TPTB would be able to wield were they able to accomplish such a thing, were someone to discover a document detailing everything and signed by GWB and somehow get it on to the net where everyone could see, there’d be a whole lotta nuthin’ anyone could do about it. TPTB would simply declare martal law (or whatever) and we’d all be helpless bitches. Even an illegally owned .50 cal machine gun with unlimited ammo is a pop-gun compared to the weapons that the military has access to, and if a government is willing to kill some 3K innocent people to further their aims, they’d have no problem dropping a nuke to maintain “order.”
I’m wondering; if they had bombs in the WTC, why bother with airplanes? Why not just blow it up with the bombs and blame that on the terrorists?
Or do you think maybe the THOUSANDS of engineers who DO think the WTC was destroyed by being hit by huge jetliners are right?
Hmmm, what to do, what to do… I’m going with the sane choice. 'Twas the planes. You see, I saw them hit the WTC. I saw no bombs and neither did anyone else.
Leaving out the “why’s” and “who’s”, the people who argue about the “how” are the ones that I don’t understand.
I’m still having difficulty trying to figure out what the difficulty is in seeing what would happen if you have a 45,000 ton object that is being held up on ever-weakening support beams, this object suddenly losing its support structure, falling straight down upon a structure that needed the 45,000-ton objects unceasing existence in its original, supported, state order to stand.
The roof was critical to the support of the WTC, far more than any other skyscraper. Once it went, the support beams had no ending-point to support them. Drop a 45,000 ton object directly on top of an unstable object like the WTC’s without a roof and what you’d see is precisely what happens.
The beams didn’t have to break, they just had to weaken… enough. That’s all.
NIST, the agency that is studying the matter in some detail has said it has all the material it requires. Other structral engineers have agreed with their conclusions, there has been little hard dissent.
As for the insinuiting ‘convenient’ comment, I would point out that the city of New York wanted the bodies recovered and their financial district back. We saw the planes fly into the buildings and the subsequent fire and collapse. The idea that we had to delay recovery for the sake of a few conspiracy cranks in the future was an idea that would have gotten you punched in the immediate days after 9/11.
None of which adds up to any evidence that explsives were used, and in fact reduces the ‘Scholars’ to a political group.
I’m not impressed. How is it that they manage to threaten engineers in countries that are not friendly with the US? How do they manage to threaten S.E.'s in China?! This does not add up, sorry
Yes. I really have my doubts that you are fully forthcoming about these people’s beliefs or expertise.
Say… maybe you’re on to something. 9/11 was engineered by the moon hoax folks so that people would develop conspiracy theories, thereby providing legitimacy for the moon hoax people by comparison!
Yeah that always seems to me the obvious response to 9/11 consp. I mean everything we know about the rank incompetence of this admin. What possibly gives you the idea they could run something like this, and keep it quiet. Though of course you then get into the realms of “well actually the TPTB aren’t really TPTB their just puppets for the REAL powers that be who are…”
Kinda like Princess Diana Conpiracies invovling Prince Prince Philip. I mean c’mon Prince Phillip ? like I’d beleive he could successfully plan and cover-up complex assination plot. If he’d planned it, he’d have been found in nearby gentlemen’s club sipping a G&T while carrying a still smoking shotgun, saying “I’m glad I killed them, the bloody slapper what sha***g a rag-head”.
