I hope samclem the asshole moderator doesn’t shut this down again without even giving a reason (no, seriously, wtf is your problem?). However, I honestly would like to get this question answered.
sorry about the intro.
My aim is that I do not want to take my chances hoping that American food will supply me with all the nutrients my body needs. I mean in all likelihood I won’t develop any severe deficiency (although those happen often), but that’s like saying Americans exercise enough for their muscles not to dissolve. There is the bare minimum, and there’s healthy. And I really doubt that I’m receiving a sufficient dose in every single nutrient.
Of course I understand that science doesn’t know everything what the body needs. However, pets and lab animals seem to go through their whole lives eating only engineer food, so aparently nutritionists know quite a bit. I figure if i’ll take whatever it is science has established I need in the appropriate doses on top of what I’d be eating otherwise, I will be much better off that if I stick with a crapshoot diet. No one should disagree.
So what kind of regimen of supplements will provide me with (almost) everything I need? Currently I take Centrum and a calcium/magnesium mix because Centrum is missing that. I also think a protein shake will do me good. (Is there one especially focused on the amino acids my body doesn’t synthesize?) Other vitamins, such as potassium and phosphorus are also absent from Centrum. I’m sure there are many more, which is why I’m here asking. I’m sure there are also many substances whose value hasn’t been as overwhelmingly established but which have strong hints of being very important. I’d like to know about the definitive ones which Centrum is missing, but those well-supported others as well (just don’t go too health-nut on me).
(P.S. I think the OP to the other thread might have had a hint that I was referring to substituting food with supplements entirely. I am not, I eat plenty and have a normal weight. However, I do want to say that not getting ‘enough’ calories, aka calorie restriction, is likely to be the healthiest thing ever discovered by science. In almost every animal studied (and there’ve been many many studies, although not as much research has been conducted on humans), it extends both life and youth by 30-50%. Nothing that has ever been done to a lab rat has EVER had such a result. It is just ignorance of basic biology to think eating few calories while receiving proper nutrition otherwise is harmful. Complete ignorance. This isn’t even being debated by biologists. It’s just fact, a fact which is poorly understood. Again, I only wish I had the willpower for such a regimen, but I repeat… and it doesn’t make sense that I should have to… I do not. But samclem, you are fn idiot if that is the reason you shut the other thread down. But probably you’re more of a power-abusing asshole, because this has been probably the fourth thread you’ve come and shut down out of whim after I posted something.)
I’m sorry about my tone, it’s just samclem and I have a history. This time, thought, I think he really went too far. Maybe he needs to catch up on what his duties as moderator are. I don’t believe it is censoring things he personally doesn’t like reading. Nor using his powers to discriminate against individual posters (even if he wants to make up for all the times he really really wanted to shut me up but just didn’t have a reason).
I think that SDMB is nervous of members giving medical advice for legal reasons, which makes sense, also because they are not keen on getting the place hogged by hypochondriacs.
A few days ago I read some stuff by a nutritionist who writes for a comic (tabloid) in the UK.
Some of it made a lot of sense, for example the body simply rejects a surfeit of some supplements and is inefficient at using other supplements without other things being present.
Generally what she was saying is that supplements are a bit of a con, and that one is a lot better off eating fresh (or failing that) frozen produce and having a bit of variety in one’s diet.
I think the general principle is that the body treats incoming food as a smorgasbord, unless it is deprived or force fed.
Calorie deprivation rings a bell, something to do with mice or rats living longer.
However it is very possible that the control group was fed an inappropriate diet.
We know very little about the diet and lifespan of a feral rat, apart from the fact that they like chocolate - which is handy when baiting traps.
You might be interested in looking into the Macrobiotic diet, basically it is a repackaged version of Japanese food prior to McDonalds - the only reason why I suggest it is that my father got a virulent cancer (died age 70 in 1998) and that was one of the ways he fought it. Basically it is a wide variety of all foodstuffs, the downside is that it makes you fart, but the upside is that I and others found that it put a spring in our steps.
The Wellments “Pro-Rated” brand sold at Costco is actually a very good supplement with both whey and casein, and it tastes pretty good to me. I mix mine with water, but mixing it with milk makes it more palatable to most people.
One thing to consider is that supplements, in general, are expensive. I use mine mostly to help with recovery from massive twice a day workouts. If I weren’t training as hard as I do, I’d skip protein shakes altogether and stick to real food.
Supplements are not a shortcut to good nutrition. They can augment good nutrition in certain circumstances, but your best bet is to concentrate on learning what you’re doing at the market and in the kitchen. Whatever reason anyone thinks they have for not eating an exemplary diet is a bullshit reason. We live in a society where we have more variety of good foods available than have been available for the vast majority of human history and it would be crazy not to take advantage of it. Good nutrition is the cornerstone to good health and what is more important than your health?
That’s interesting. Yeah, I’m sure supplements are often inefficient (eg, I’m familiar with the problems calcium carbonate). However, why couldn’t such things be identified and combatted? Either with higher dosages or different intake forms? (eg, my calcium carbonate pills now come as pre-dissolved gelcaps.)
Anyway, where in the world would I get that Japanese diet? How can you even repackage something like that? Is it an extract, or a frozen dinner? Might be worth a shot, but also seems rather inconvenient.
daffyduck, thanks about the link regarding proteins.
However, what is your reason with my basic premise that, in theory, supplememnts could be the path to good nutrition? Thing is that I don’t cook. I don’t have much say about getting all the best ingredients and all that. And even if I did, statistics simply imply that of the hundred nutriets science knows well about, there’s gotta be a few I’m simply not getting. I think your premise that ordinary (both American ordinary but even “health food” ordinary) food is overflowing with nutrients is false.
You should look into. It is certainly not the case of the control group being given a poor diet, and we can discount that feral rats just live way longer and it’s science that’s making them die. The evidence comes from many, many animals and is overwhelming. ‘Anorexia’ with good nutrition boosts longevity and youth by 30-50%. No other treatment, including plain good nutrition and excercise, or an array of medical procedures, or drugs, has ever come close. Some increase longetivity, but almost none actually forestal aging. Our society twists and moralizes the issue of weight every which way and often doesn’t even look at the facts.
I don’t get your question. What do you mean by “American food”? :dubious: If this is an example of your OPs, I can’t say as I can blame “samclem the asshole moderator” for shutting them down.
You- we- us-me can get all the nutrients you need by eating a fairly well-balanced diet- here in America or anywhere. Taking a multi-vite is cheap insurance, but it’s probably not nessesary. Well, unless you are pregnant, nursing, a woman, a senior, don’t eat right,or have a medical condition. For that last- follow your MD’s advice on what supplements to take. Hell, that’s always good advice; ask your MD and follow what he says.
Most westerners don’t get anough fiber, and most of us can use more veggies, so eating more salads is often a good idea for most of us. Cut back on fats, esp trans-fats. Eat less “fast food”, less sugar.
Probiotics are getting some interest, so a serving of live culture yogurt a couple times a week might be a good idea. YMMV.
Popping a large handful of expensive *non-MD recommended * supplements is likely just making your urine very vitamin-rich, and lining the pockets of the dude you buy them from.
I take some glucosamine etc for my joints (per my MD), a multi-vite, and an anti-oxidant pill.
DrDeth, could you provide a cite that a typical American diet gives over 100% (or, say, over 70%) of all recognized nutrients? How about of 80% of nutrients? How about a “well-balanced” American diet? I think you are saying these things purely on faith.
“Popping a large handful of…supplements is likely just making your urine very vitamin-rich”
You are talking about mega-doses of vitamins. Don’t get things confused! I want regular doses.
P.S. regarding all this talk of “ask your doctor.” A doctor is just one man. Who went to school a long time ago. And presently his main source of advice on which things to feed you. Is brochures from pharmaceutical companies. It’s not that doctors know nothing. That is certainly not true. It’s just that they as hell don’t know everything and I’ll bet anything that a bunch of posters are gonna arive at a better list of the supplements I might want to take than a single man. Perhaps that line of reasoning is coming off as fishy. But really, think about it. How much can individual professional know. Most of you are professionals of equal intelligence with doctors. Could you claim that no one needs to go to anyone else for information but you? Could you come anywhere close to claiming that? Stop saying “ask one single doctor.”
The problem with the typical American diet isn’t the food available, it’s the choices made by the individual Americans. You can find all the same healthy food choices here that you can find anywhere else in the world.
fluiddruid, I’m not good at finding citations beside just plain Google searching. However, the wikipedia page has many, many references which you could look at.
A snipped from its introduction (which I think gracefully sidesteps that much more research has been done on animals than humans, but emphasizes that benefits for humans have been found as well):
There is debate of how much, when, to whom, etc. the benefits are. But there is enough data to conclude that the stance “not eating enough is harmful” is absolutely unsubstantiated by fact. We have to stop guilt-tripping our girls and instruct them on how to go about what they do responsibly. The contrast between scientific research and public attitude is rather mindboggling.
That’s the problem though. I hate it when doctors go on TV and poo-poo nutritional supplements and say, “you get all the nutrition you need from your healthy diet.”
Yeah, like have a healthy diet. That’s why America has the lowest obesity & diabetes rates in the world.
What a pain in the ass. I’m a pretty good cook and cook almost all my own meals, rarely eating out these days. But I know I sure as heck don’t carefully choose the recommended number of daily servings from each of the five major food groups on that damn pyramid.
No, 'cause it isn’t true. Most Americans- or Brits or Canadians, or Japanese eat too much fast food and snack crap and not enough fresh veggies and fruits. However, the FDA (and my MD) claims that you can eat a “well-balanced diet” without extreme sacrifices, and I agree.
Yes, your MD is “just one man”- who regulary keeps up to date with his CPE and tech reading, talks to other Drs and health professionals- and most importantly- knows yourmedical history and background. Thus- ask *your * MD- no one knows better than he does. Some advice you get on a website might just be the worst fucking thing for you. (For example, I have said Aspartame is harmless to most dudes- but it is dangerous to about 1/50000, and your MD will know that you’re in that 1/50000)
Sure, I am a Professional, and my MD and I talk as equals. He even asks for my advice*- in my field.* But he knows his field hwaaaay more than I do. Yes, sometimes I get a new medical journal at work, see something of interest, show it to him and we discuss it. That’s why I now take some supplements for my arthritus*- but I talked with the Pro who knows my medical history and my health, 1st.
Note that most Doctors won’t mind looking at a copy of that article from the NEJM you downloaded off the internet . But they often don’t want to hear “Hey, I saw this ad for this new drug, and it looks like it will cure me, I want it!”. :rolleyes: Do your research. That’s why I give links to such articles in Medical journals and sometimes say “Discuss this with your MD”. IMHO- that’s the only kind of “medical advice” you should listen to here or on any other MB.
Doc: “Couldn’t hurt, might help. Let’s give it a try.” YMMV.
For another page with great links (also linked in the wiki article), check out the Calorie Restriction Society. There really are massive amounts of impressive research indicating that a reduced calorie diet can lead to life extension and, more interestingly, healthier elder years (in research animals at least). The life extension does seem come with a trade off of reduced libido and lower energy levels and, for these reasons, most people believe it will never be popular for the public. But if researchers can determine why calorie restriction is effective, it’s possible they can duplicate the effect without onerous diet.
And, due to the length of the study time required, it’s never been tested in humans alhtogh there are volunteers who are currently following a CRON (calorie restriction with optimal nutrition) diet. Alex_Dubinsky,if you’re interested in the subject, you join the CRS mailing list. Those guys are pretty knowledgable about the subject (with the exception of a few cranks) and can point you in the right direction for research.
:dubious: If this is an example of your OPs, I can’t say as I can blame “samclem the asshole moderator” 
for shutting them down.
YMMV.