Relationships: how do you fight without hurting each other?

In My Humble Opinion
1

Well the title is pretty self-explanatory I think. I’m looking for advice from Dopers on how to argue without fighting, and how to fight without damaging the relationship.

I was raised in a family of people who all had very strict control of their emotions. Yelling was very, very rare and my parents worked all of their problems out behind closed doors. Conflicts between siblings were argued before the court in lawyer fashion: rationally and unemotionally. While I appreciate the calm and supportive environment that created, it also left me a bit unequipped to deal with different arguing styles, specifically that of my SO :o

I seem to remember a thread about this issue long ago but 20 minutes of searching yields nothing.

2

Padded, 11 ounce gloves and full head gear.

3

No history lessons, no mothers, no critiquing extraneous activities/abilities.

Stay focused on the argument at hand, and be prepared to lose gracefully. Then forget you ever fought.

4

Have agreements about the parameters of fighting that are developed beforehand, wehen you are not fighting.

No name calling, no sarcasm.

Praise each other for fighting effectively. Stop in mid-fight and collaboratively evaluate how the fight is going.

5

[QUOTE=silenus]
No history lessons, no mothers, no critiquing extraneous activities/abilities.

Stay focused on the argument at hand, and be prepared to lose gracefully. Then forget you ever fought.
[/QUOTE]
That’s just a great summary. Excellent points.

Also stay focused on common goals. Sometimes if you both just express your objective you can reach a conclusion faster. Instead of, “You spend too much money on crap!” say, “We earn this much, we need to save this much, the mortgage and bills are this much, let’s talk about how to spend what’s left.”

If things do get too emotional, take a break.

There’s a principle called the “fair fight” (Google it). Here’s one article.

6

I find that, in addition to the kind of upbringing you mentioned (are we related?), it helps to be shy, quiet, introverted and underconfident, with no measureable social skills. Oh, and you need to not give much of a rip about pretty much anything.

YMMV, of course.

7

First and foremost (for me, at least; YMMV) is: figure out if it’s worth fighting about at all. So much of what my kids and hubby do that annoys me, isn’t really their behavior annoying me. It’s me, projecting crap from my childhood onto their actions. So when I get really angry, the first thing I do is talk with myself about it. Is it really them, or is it me? If it’s me, no fighting ensues. I may ask them (politely) to try not to do that particular thing in the future. But I fully recognize it’s my problem, I’m just enlisting their help in dealing with it.

Second, if I’ve decided it is worth fighting about, I never make it “personal”. I don’t assume that they’re doing whatever-it-is as a personal attack on me. I stay calm. If I’m too upset to stay calm (I tend to cry when I’m angry), I tell them “I’m too emotional to deal with this right now; let’s table it until I calm down”.

Third, we do not keep score cards. If I approach mr. new about something heinous he’s done, he does not use that as a platform to launch “Oh, yeah, what about the time you did X?” I don’t do that either. The issue is what it is, and we don’t drag other issues into it.

Fourth, we always try to keep in mind that we’re not fighting to win, we’re fighting to fix something that’s broken. Fighting to win means one of us wins and one of us loses. Fighting to fix something means that, ultimately, the team of we wins.

But it’s paramount to discuss this stuff and agree to ground rules when you’re not fighting/angry/emotional. Otherwise, well, it’ll be like trying to get a plane off the ground by putting on a treadmill.

Good luck!

8

Attack the idea or the behavior. Don’t attack the other person. Be clear about what the problem is. Better yet, be clear about what the goal is. Both to yourself and to your partner.

Keep the arguement on topic. Don’t wander off into who didn’t change the toilet paper roll, or who has the most annoying friends/family.

Listen to yourself. Are you making coherent arguements? Are you making personal attacks? Are you disagreeing just to disagree?

Be willing to call a time out if you reach a dead end. Take some time to think over what was said. Sometimes the right answer has already been mentioned, but in the heat of the moment, it got passed right over.

9

If I’m arguing with my brother or my dad, we can quickly get to the point of talking very loudly (not yelling…well, except for my dad and brother) about any number of issues, because that’s how it was when I was littler. I grew up listening to my mom and dad fight a lot, and wondered how they managed to stay together. Their way of fighting was like a typical stand up comedian’s routine.

My mom would be pissed off about something and yell at my dad about it. I coudl never hear what my dad was saying because he was quieter, until he said something like “Horse SHIT!” and I had to assume that every now and then he made a good point because then my mom would start screaming about “Well the last time I asked you to do something like that was when you refinished the kitchen table and now it’s ruined!” or something along those lines. It really is odd to try to have an argument with her. Anyhow, where was I?

Oh, yes…it’s completely different when I’m arguing with my wife. I only raise my voice when I get extremely frustrated, and it’s very counterproductive (she reacts with tears, which just completely destroys the whole fight :D). The key to successful fights is that each person has to actually listen to the other person and respond to their points, and then speak about how they feel…otherwise one person or the other is just going to feel intimidated, unheard, or both.

You need to have this talk with your SO, and simply warn him that you’re going to start leaving arguments if he yells or whatever. Let him know how it makes you feel, and maybe arrange some sort of signal for when the arguments are getting out of hand. Make sure to reciprocate by asking if there’s anything you do in arguments that annoys him (except being contantly in the right, of course ;)) that you could change.

It won’t happen over night, it is going to take some practice, but if you’re both committed to it, it should begin to work out.

A little funny anecdote about my wife and me. Coat hangers are one of the things that set the tone for my marriage.

We got married later, I was 28, she was 30, and both of us had already had homes and ways that we lived. I knew she was a much neater, more organized person than me, and that I would have ot change some of my slovenly ways. One morning, however, she was grumbling at me because I put my coats on the hangers the wrong way. I was flabbergasted t hat something like that would drive her so crazy, but didn’t know what to say, so I said nothing. Later, we sat down and talked. I said I know you’re more organized than me, and you got used to your own way of doing things, but not everything in the house is going to change to your way, and you’re going to have to start dealing with that a litle bit. I asked what possible impact it had on her if I hung my coat the wrong way inside the closet, which has a closed door…no one sees it, and the only difference is that my hangar hooks pointed a different direction than hers. At that point, she agreed that it was kind of silly and she was still settling into the whole marriage thing and didn’t want my slovenliness to get out of hand. I responded by saying that if I was picked on for every little thing, I was less likely, overall, to respond to anything. Neither of us needed to yell to get our points across. Neither of us needed to be “right” and win the argument, either. We just needed to understand how the other person felt, and try to make them more comfortable. That’s how it’s got to work. It’s not how it always works for us, because sometime you’re just frustrated and lash out a bit, but we always end up with better results if we talk calmly.

10

I’m reading between the lines here, but it sounds like your SO is getting way too heated when you have these arguments. Is that correct?

If that’s the case, you need to sit down with him and tell him that behavior is totally unacceptible and that you will not put up with it. If he wants to argue with you about something rationally, that’s fine. But you are not going to put up with any irrational behavior like yelling, screaming, stomping around, slamming doors, etc.

He may counter with saying that’s just the way he is, but very heated arguing can be like abuse if you are not fine with it. It would be totally unacceptible if he hit you with his hand. It’s also unacceptible if he hits you with words.

It’s not unusual to have a lot of disagreements initially when you are married, but he should be able to discuss things rationally with you.

I’m a very calm argue-er but my wife is a hothead in arguments. It took me a long time to figure out I needed to set her straight about that behavior. I’m ashamed at how long I just accepted it, thought it was just that one time, thought I’d say something about it next time, etc. It went on for years before I finally told her I wouldn’t let her talk to me like that anymore. It’s better, but it’s not perfect.

One thing that I finally learned is that the hothead is not artificially acting that way. Their emotions are boiling over and it’s like they lose control. I thought she was just “faking” since I would never do those sorts of things no matter how angry I got. But that just explains why they act that way–it doesn’t excuse it.

If he says “I was angry” when you ask why he raised his voice, or called you a @*&, or broke something, that’s not an acceptible excuse. Don’t put up with it.

I hope you don’t think me too harsh, but I wish I had addressed this issue in my marriage from the start. I let it go on way too long.

11

[QUOTE=BigDoggie]
I’m reading between the lines here, but it sounds like your SO is getting way too heated when you have these arguments. Is that correct?

If that’s the case, you need to sit down with him and tell him that behavior is totally unacceptible and that you will not put up with it. If he wants to argue with you about something rationally, that’s fine. But you are not going to put up with any irrational behavior like yelling, screaming, stomping around, slamming doors, etc.

He may counter with saying that’s just the way he is, but very heated arguing can be like abuse if you are not fine with it. It would be totally unacceptible if he hit you with his hand. It’s also unacceptible if he hits you with words.

It’s not unusual to have a lot of disagreements initially when you are married, but he should be able to discuss things rationally with you.

I’m a very calm argue-er but my wife is a hothead in arguments. It took me a long time to figure out I needed to set her straight about that behavior. I’m ashamed at how long I just accepted it, thought it was just that one time, thought I’d say something about it next time, etc. It went on for years before I finally told her I wouldn’t let her talk to me like that anymore. It’s better, but it’s not perfect.

One thing that I finally learned is that the hothead is not artificially acting that way. Their emotions are boiling over and it’s like they lose control. I thought she was just “faking” since I would never do those sorts of things no matter how angry I got. But that just explains why they act that way–it doesn’t excuse it.

If he says “I was angry” when you ask why he raised his voice, or called you a @*&, or broke something, that’s not an acceptible excuse. Don’t put up with it.

I hope you don’t think me too harsh, but I wish I had addressed this issue in my marriage from the start. I let it go on way too long.
[/QUOTE]

He doesn’t call me names or break anything, he just gets very, very sarcastic and condescending. Even over trivial (to me) stuff, I can see him get angry. His shoulders hunch up, his fists clench, his lips go thin and tight. He’ll start to shake. I don’t know how to respond to his anger at all, so I usually go into panic mode and say anything I can to end it, which just reinforces his behavior.

I don’t think you harsh at all. I’m trying to find a good way to tell him that this isn’t acceptable. I’ve told him that every couple annoys each other, and shit is going to happen both to us and between us, but it’s how we handle it that will determine our success as a couple.

I’ve tried to stay focused on his behavior rather than him (I say “it makes me feel _____ when you do ____” rather than “stop being an asshole”). But the other night he said that he feels like I’m not accepting who he is when I say things like that. He also says (as you guessed) that this is who he is, and if I say anything annoying or upseting to him when he’s in a bad mood (or tired, or hungry, or whatever) that I should “expect” his response.

IMO everyone is entitled to a bad mood, but no one is justified in taking it out on the people they love.

12

Actually I was considering sending him an email about this while he’s at work so he has a few hours to think about it.

What do you think of this?:

13

Humm - I was all prepaired to come in here and offer up my two cents and then I realized that I DON’T fight in relationship. I don’t even argue. I mean, I’ll debate with someone in a friendish “we’re having a discussion” sort of way, but I honestly can’t remember ever having had an arugement - like an “I’m really mad” arguement with ANY of my SO’s.

That seems very odd to me, not that I’ve thought about it.

That being said, I wouldn’t tollerate someone being sarcastic and condescending to me under any circumstances, particularly if they were someone I got naked and had sex with. I guess that would be my untested advice - remember that you actually really like the person you’re arguing with, and remember to treat them at least as well as you would a total stranger. It’s amazing to me how quickly people forget that when they’re friends with someone. Maybe that’s why I never fight or argue.

14

I think your calm e-mail is a good start, but I’d avoid making it sound like this issue is jeopardizing your marriage (even if it is…just hold off on playing this card for a little while). That sort of thing can sound like an ultimatum or a threat, and that’s not the road you want to go down.

Getting sarcastic and unresponsive is one of the ways I deal with immediate frustration, but usually I’ll come back later when I’ve put all my thoughts together and we can talk about things more calmly. If that’s not happening here, then he needs to understand it’s a problem. If he thinks you just aren’t accepting him and are trying to chang ehim, let him know that his attitude WILL change the sweet, kind woman he married into a sad and damaged one, and ask him if that’s what he wants. I don’t think you want him to change who he is, but just like anyone who’s still growing as a person, you can learn what works and what doesn’t work. Let him know that repeating the same procedure while expecting different results is the definition of insanity. That should hit home with the scientific, engineering part of his psyche. You’re NEVER going to react favorably to the way he argues, so either he needs to stop arguing with you, or you guys need to change how you communicate.

Anyhow, I hope things get better.

15

[QUOTE=SusanStoHelit]
Actually I was considering sending him an email about this while he’s at work so he has a few hours to think about it.

What do you think of this?:
[/QUOTE]

I really like the letter. It says what it needs to without being too acusatory. However, I wouldn’t send it to him at work. It’s likely that he’ll be upset or emotional, and he shouldn’t have to deal with that at work. Instead, I would suggest being out of the house when he gets home and leave the note where he’ll find it. Add to the note that you are going for a walk and you will be back later and hope that you can talk about this.

Your descriptions sound similar to my wife. Her face would get flush, she’d hit her fist against her palm, she’d say nasty things, etc. When she was not angry, she was great–the person I wanted to be with forever. When she was angry, not so much.

With her, the behavior didn’t start one day after we were married–it was there all along. It’s just that when it happend when we were dating, I thought “That’s weird. I guess xyz made her really mad.” I thought it was a one-time thing since that behavior was so alien to me. I didn’t realize until much later that it was a normal behavior and I could expect it anytime we had any sort of meaningful disagreement.

When you talk to him if he says he can’t/won’t change, say something like this:

I know that’s really serious, but if you stay together your options are either he changes, you never make him mad, or you just put up with it. I can tell you with certainty he won’t just magically change one day. Either he makes the effort to change or not. It won’t disappear on its one.

It’s impossible to have a marriage without regular disagreements. However you guys argue, that’s the way it will be for a long time.

One more thing, realize that it will be very hard for him to manage his anger to a calm level. Even if he gets it under control, you may need to recognize the signs when it’s going to far and ask him if he’d like to talk about it more later and appreciate the effort he’s making. He’ll probably never be able to calmly argue things like you do.

I used to wonder why my wife couldn’t be like me, but it’s because my anger pot just gets to an easy simmer. But my wife’s angry pot easily boils over all over the stove and floor. For me to get that way, someone would basically have to be trying to harm my family.

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[QUOTE=alice_in_wonderland]
That being said, I wouldn’t tollerate someone being sarcastic and condescending to me under any circumstances, particularly if they were someone I got naked and had sex with. I guess that would be my untested advice - remember that you actually really like the person you’re arguing with, and remember to treat them at least as well as you would a total stranger. It’s amazing to me how quickly people forget that when they’re friends with someone. Maybe that’s why I never fight or argue.
[/QUOTE]

That’s a little insulting. He’s not an asshole, and he shows me 10,000x a day how much he loves me. And honestly, if I had a thicker skin I probably wouldn’t be complaining about this at all.

He’s learned some very bad habits and patterns from his disfunctional mother, but that doesn’t mean he’s a bad person.

Bingo. That’s spot-on what’s happened to me.

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[QUOTE=SusanStoHelit]
That’s a little insulting.
[/quote]

:eek: !!

Well, I certainly didn’t mean it to be insulting. I mean, I suppose it’s noteworthy that I’m in my mid thirties and not married, and not particularly anxious to be so - perhaps I just don’t have what it takes, but someone being mean and condescending just isn’t something that I could deal with, even if they were super sweet 90% of the time. YMM and obviously does V.

I never said he was, and I don’t think you are either (not that my opinion counts for a hill of beans.) My only point is that this is supposed to be the person that you love more than anyone else, and loves you more than anyone else. Meanness doesn’t seem like it belongs in that sort of relationship.

But, as I said - I’m single. I don’t know what the hell I’m talking about. BTW - your letter was very nice.

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[QUOTE=alice_in_wonderland]
:eek: !!

Well, I certainly didn’t mean it to be insulting. I mean, I suppose it’s noteworthy that I’m in my mid thirties and not married, and not particularly anxious to be so - perhaps I just don’t have what it takes, but someone being mean and condescending just isn’t something that I could deal with, even if they were super sweet 90% of the time. YMM and obviously does V.
[/quote]

My apologies for misinterpreting - I’m a bit touchy on this issue right now.

You’re right of course. I’ve brought that up to him when he thinks I’m overreacting. I’ve told him that in my world people don’t speak that way to people they love.

19

[QUOTE=SusanStoHelit]
That’s a little insulting. He’s not an asshole, and he shows me 10,000x a day how much he loves me. And honestly, if I had a thicker skin I probably wouldn’t be complaining about this at all.

He’s learned some very bad habits and patterns from his disfunctional mother, but that doesn’t mean he’s a bad person.

[/quote]

A thicker skin, honestly, wouldn’t help you resolve the problem, which is that you and your spouse are arguing in a way that’s not productive. Beleive me, it would only allow things to escalate to a point where it was worse, and eventually you’d be here anyhow.

And me as well. I suspect it’s not all that uncommon. You can either become your parents or you can learn from them. I looked at my parents’ marriage as a template for how I wanted mine NOT to be. Your SO needs to examine his interactions with his mother in the same way I did. Did it work well for her? How did it make him feel if she used that tactic on him? etc.

Hopefully you’ll get a positive response out of your e-mail. If he seems resistant to talking about it right away, let him know you think it’s important, and that you want to talk about it, but not if he needs some time to do his own “emotional inventory” so to speak and put together his response. I think the biggest reason people react this way is because they really can’t argue all that effectively about the particular topic, and feel like they are losing an argument without being able to be heard. It’s emasculating, and he could be getting frustrated more with himself than with you.

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[QUOTE=alice_in_wonderland]
Humm - I was all prepaired to come in here and offer up my two cents and then I realized that I DON’T fight in relationship. I don’t even argue. I mean, I’ll debate with someone in a friendish “we’re having a discussion” sort of way, but I honestly can’t remember ever having had an arugement - like an “I’m really mad” arguement with ANY of my SO’s.
[/QUOTE]
Okay, this clinches it. I have to meet you. :wink:

The thing about most family arguments is that they’re almost never what they’re nominally about. Arguing over the direction of coat hangers? That’s not an a debate over the correct way to hang a coat; that’s most likely along the lines of, “You’re in my space, and I need to assert myself so that my identity isn’t swallowed up.” Ditto for most other arguments; even arguments about money or family planning usually have their genesis from previous experience and relationships.

This reminds me of an anecdote recently related to me by a friend. Her sibling was arguing with the spouse about the color of the helicopter they saw while driving! This totally inconsequential topic resulted in a screaming match on the front lawn. Of course, the argument had nothing to do with helicopters (one of the particpants avowing any interest in what color the damn thing was, or indeed in helicopters at all). It is telling, I think, that both spouses come from highly dysfunctional families (one comes from emmigrant parents with highly rigid ethnic strictures, the other from a family where divorce is a more regular occurance than holiday gatherings), and the fact that neither have apparently have had regular exposure to healthy ways of communicating or resolving conflict.

Living with someone else is seriously hard, especially if you lack self-awareness of your own experience and instincts. I’m not tryiing to shill for the counselling industry here, but getting some outside help in this regard might be beneficial to both of you, and much cheaper than a miserable marriage and eventual divorce. And for what it’s worth, I agree at least this much with alice_in_wonderland; you shouldn’t have to accept sarcasm or condcendation from a spouse. or at least not without apology. Or to quote Heinlein, “Formal courtesy between husband and wife is even more important than it is between strangers.” (Nothing like a Heinlein quote to bring geeks around to your way of thinking.)

The letter is good for what it is, but it’s just a drop in what should be a constant stream of two way communication.

Good luck to you and your betrothed.

Stranger