How bad is it to read other people's mail through the envelope?

[According to Pliny]

Some times of course, you just can't help noticing that an envelope says "Final Demand Letter" with a lawyer's return address. The whole point of that was to embarrass the recipient.

But I've also discovered that if you xerox an envelope with a high contrast setting that the letter inside will show up like the envelope was clear. Unless it has that privacy patterned envelope like checks come in.

Today I saw a co-worker's envelope coming from "___ Drug Testing". The thought flashed through my head he might be in rehab. So my curiosity overcame me. But he is only testing a sleep apnea drug. I was relieved for him and then ashamed for myself.

But can you quantify the badness of it? If I were a Catholic, would I have to say two Hail Mary's or get mineself to a nunnery?

[gigi]

Would you keep the information to yourself, or spread it around and lead others into temptation, thus compounding your sin to include scandal?

[nameless]

I don't see how this is ethically any worse than opening someone's mail and reading it. It's just easier. The only difference is that tampering is not evident.

[nameless]

Argh. I meant ethically any better. I didn't mean to imply that opening mail was OK.

[Mtgman]

I think it's the special measures you're taking to be able to read the mail which crosses the line from "ok" to "not ok". Everyone can read a postcard, with no special equipment. Therefore people treat them as having no privacy. Letters are another matter. If a sender puts mail in an envelope and it doesn't show through under normal circumstances then they expect the content to be private. Using this technique is the modern equivalent to steaming open a letter, reading it, and then re-sealing the envelope. It's undetectable, but it's still violating the implicit trust people place in their private correspondence.

Think about how you would feel if someone did that to a sensitive/personal letter you had sent, and that will probably give you a good idea about if it is a practice you should continue.

Enjoy,
Steven

[According to Pliny]

Follow up note:

Ironicly, I realized that by reading the letter I didn't end up thinking the guy had a drug problem, which better for both of us.

But then I asked him, "I couldn't help but see you got a letter from a drug testing company- are you in rehab or something, if you don't mind my asking."

He then told me about the study. And surprised me with this: "I had the letter sent to my work address because I figured someone would ask about it and I could say it once. If the letter went home my girlfriend would become my sleeping coach and I would have to give and get sleep progress reports every night. I just don't need that right now. I'm too tired to deal with it."

[Pleonast]

Um, I always thought messing with the mail was a federal felony. Am I wrong?

[gigi]

Originally Posted by According to Pliny

But then I asked him, "I couldn't help but see you got a letter from a drug testing company- are you in rehab or something, if you don't mind my asking."

See, that's the part that crosses the line. You could help but see it, and I am surprised that you would admit it to someone. And I'm sorry for him that he feels like he will be asked about it at work.

[Zsofia]

I agree that it's the taking special measures to read it that makes it unethical. If you can just read it through the envelope, I mean, it's not nice but I think there's a reasonable expectation there. But to go and photocopy it to see? I mean, how did you even find out you can do that?

[norinew]

Times like this is when the Golden Rule comes in so handy. I'm going to assume that you would not appreciate it if one of your co-workers went to such measures to read your mail. So why would you assume it's okay for you to do it to someone else? I mean, I don't think you should be strung up or anything, but I do think it's something wrong.

It's been too long since I practiced Catholocism to say how many Hail Mary's this would warrant.

[Anne Neville]

I don't know what the Catholic Church says about reading other people's mail, but Judaism says it's wrong (at least Ashkenazic Judaism does, don't know if Sephardim have a similar explicit ruling). Rabbi Gershom, around the year 1000, said that reading other people's mail is wrong. It was considered a serious sin- if you did read other people's mail, the punishment was cherem, which is sort of a cross between shunning and excommunication. We don't do that any more, but we still think it's a very bad thing to do to read other people's mail.

There's another argument against it in Judaism. In the Talmud, Rabbi Hillel said, "That which is hateful to you do not do to your fellow. That is the whole Torah; the rest is commentary; go and learn." Would you like it if your co-workers were snooping in your mail to find out if you have a drug problem? My guess is that you wouldn't, so you shouldn't do it to them.

As far as I know, it doesn't matter in Judaism how you read someone else's mail, but it's wrong no matter how you do it. You could steal their mail (of course, that would also involve the sin of theft), use a photocopier as you describe, or even read a letter someone left lying around where you could see it. It's just plain wrong, even if you don't go to extraordinary measures to do it.

Incidentally, Judaism says you commit another serious sin if you did find out something negative about someone (by reading their mail, or some other way) and gossip about it with others- the sin of lashon ha-ra. Some authorities say there is no forgiveness possible for this sin, because it's not possible to undo the damage you've done to someone's reputation by gossiping. Even if the gossip is true, if the person you tell it to doesn't absolutely need to know, it's still a sin.

[Tastes of Chocolate]

I assume, According to Pliny, that you won't mind if I rifle through your desk drawers? I promise I'll put everything back just the way it was.

I don't see any difference between that, and what you did. Except I asked permission first.

[TheLoadedDog]

Originally Posted by Pleonast

Um, I always thought messing with the mail was a federal felony. Am I wrong?

I don't know about US law, but I'd suspect it is. As an Australia Post employee, I'm under oath regarding the "sanctity of the mails", which is rather a quaint term, but I take it seriously, and it's burned into my brain to a point that it flows into my off-duty life, and I wouldn't look through an envelope even if it's addressed to a spouse (there was a thread on this recently). At work, if I tamper with the mail, I will be instantly dismissed and the matter will be referred to the police for prosecution. Technically, "tampering with the mails" includes reading postcards.

So for me, what is mentioned in the OP is about equal to going to somebody's house and rummaging through their files. I just couldn't do it. I'm not normally so uptight, but with mail, my job has made me that way.

[matt_mcl]

The only circumstance in which I could countenance even trying to read someone else's mail:

1) It was immediately and unambiguously apparent to you that there were serious negative consequences for you, and the letter was open (not sealed). For example, the previous tenant at my address was served notice, not in an envelope, that bailiffs would be stopping by to break into his (my) appartment and seize a bunch of his (my) stuff for failing to pay his (his) debts. At that point, I took immediate action to ensure that my (my) stuff would not be seized and that the aforesaid bailiffs were aware that he had moved away from his (my) appartment. I regard that as ethically justified.

2) ...Actually, I can't think of any other cases right now.

[Triskadecamus]

Originally Posted by U.S. Code

TITLE 18--CRIMES AND CRIMINAL PROCEDURE

PART I--CRIMES

CHAPTER 83--POSTAL SERVICE

Sec. 1702. Obstruction of correspondence

Whoever takes any letter, postal card, or package out of any post
office or any authorized depository for mail matter, or from any letter
or mail carrier, or which has been in any post office or authorized
depository, or in the custody of any letter or mail carrier, before it
has been delivered to the person to whom it was directed, with design to
obstruct the correspondence, or to pry into the business or secrets of
another, or opens, secretes, embezzles, or destroys the same, shall be
fined under this title or imprisoned not more than five years, or both.

Emphasis added.

Tris

[FRDE]

@According to Pliny

I would have no qualms, thanks for the Xerox tip, I tend to stick things under a 100w lightbulb which is a bit unsatisfactory.

Rifling a bosses desk can be instructive, especially if you get the keys to his 'secure' filing cabinet - similarly snooping computers.

Oddly my ethics bar me from searching a woman's handbag, unless she has lost something and expressly agrees to me showing her how to conduct a methodical search (method dump the whole lot in a pile on a bed and divide into separate piles).

In your case your motives sound benign, and your cow-orker sounds as if he was relieved to be able to talk to someone about it.

To me there is nothing wrong with keeping ones eyes and ears open, but I agree with Anne Neville that using such information maliciously is out of order, unless one is dealing with someone pernicious.

[According to Pliny]

Originally Posted by gigi

See, that's the part that crosses the line. You could help but see it, and I am surprised that you would admit it to someone. And I'm sorry for him that he feels like he will be asked about it at work.

I guess you missed part of the OP: The information that it was from a drug testing company was on the outside of the envelope in the return address. He apparently knew what their envelope looked like from prior contacts, so he would assume people would wonder what was up based on that.
And all our mail just sits in a department in basket waiting to be sifted through, so we all see each other's envelopes.

[According to Pliny]

Originally Posted by Tastes of Chocolate

I assume, According to Pliny, that you won't mind if I rifle through your desk drawers? I promise I'll put everything back just the way it was.

I don't see any difference between that, and what you did. Except I asked permission first.

Oh poor naive baby! People do rummage through my desk drawers all the time. The premise is usually looking for a stapler or scissors, but the real motive is my candy stash. If people didn't do this, then they wouldn't put locks on desks. Such is life in the big city.

[kanicbird]

There used to be a spray that you could use to 'wet' the mail, making it easier to read it through the envelope. The wetting substance evaporated very fast, and didn't leave any 'water like' stains. It may have been freon based.

Glad to see that technology has improved so that we can spy on each other without depleting the ozone layer

[Tastes of Chocolate]

Originally Posted by According to Pliny

Oh poor naive baby! People do rummage through my desk drawers all the time. The premise is usually looking for a stapler or scissors, but the real motive is my candy stash. If people didn't do this, then they wouldn't put locks on desks. Such is life in the big city.

Dang, I'm glad I don't work for your employer. At all the places I've worked, people wouldn't dream of opening up another's desk with out permission, unless it was some sort of emergancy. If you see the one as ok, I suppose I can see where you would find the other ok. As for me, stay out of my desk and my mail.

[Grits and Hard Toast]

Originally Posted by According to Pliny

Today I saw a co-worker's envelope coming from "___ Drug Testing". The thought flashed through my head he might be in rehab. So my curiosity overcame me. But he is only testing a sleep apnea drug. I was relieved for him and then ashamed for myself.

But can you quantify the badness of it? If I were a Catholic, would I have to say two Hail Mary's or get mineself to a nunnery?

Well compared to murder, it of course it is a small thing. But on the scale of treating co workers with respect I see it as a very bad thing.

It would be the same as if a co worker found a way to hack into your computer and read your emails. Or read your writings in Word or something. Or found a way to listen on your phone conversations without you knowing. Or borrowed your coat, found a private letter in the pocket and read it.

I think he had a reasonable expectation of privacy and you invaded it.

I don't think your curiousity is justification to do what you did. There was a good reason for your feeling ashamed. I can only hope you refrain from doing that in the future. If its being illegal is not enough of a reason to stop you from doing it, then thinking how you would feel knowing others were poking around into your private business would make you feel should stop you.

[jjimm]

Originally Posted by According to Pliny

I guess you missed part of the OP

gigi didn't miss anything: your OP was terribly badly worded. Regard how you wrote it:

Originally Posted by According to Pliny

But I've also discovered that if you xerox an envelope with a high contrast setting that the letter inside will show up like the envelope was clear. Unless it has that privacy patterned envelope like checks come in.

Today I saw a co-worker's envelope coming from "___ Drug Testing".

Based on the information in the preceding paragraph, I drew the same conclusions as gigi. You wrote it wrong.

As for your question, hell no! It's question of courtesy and trust. My wife and I don't open each other's mail, even when we know what's inside. If you Xeroxed my mail, I'd think you were the biggest dick in the world, and let you know that. If you did it again, I'd escalate the issue.

[Dervorin]

If I'd found out that someone did that to me, I would be incredibly pissed off. There's a reason that letter's in an envelope - it's none of your damned business, no matter how "curious" you are. Happening to glance at someone's open private correspondence and noticing something can't be helped, but deliberately photocopying something to read the contents of a letter? What the hell? You want quantified badness - well, I'd say on a scale of 1 to 10 of petty personal badness, it's a whole heaping 11.

And even if I'd noticed something in the aforementioned manner, I wouldn't say anything to the person concerned unless they brought it up with me. Keep your nose out of what doesn't concern you. My correspondence is mine, and those whom I choose to share it with are welcome to do so. Everyone else - butt out.

[Bearflag70]

What if my boss turned cheap all of a sudden and refused to buy me a new printer cartridge for my work printer to do my job, so when the boss went to lunch, I swapped his full printer cartridge for my empty one?

[Grits and Hard Toast]

Originally Posted by Bearflag70

What if my boss turned cheap all of a sudden and refused to buy me a new printer cartridge for my work printer to do my job, so when the boss went to lunch, I swapped his full printer cartridge for my empty one?

I am not seeing anything in that related to the OP, except maybe things people have done at work they feel guilty about.

But if you couldn't do your job because your cartridge was empty, and there were no new cartridges available, then switch it out so you can finish your job. Then tell the boss when he comes back what you had to do to finish your work. Then he can decide if needs it back, or if you need it more.

[jsgoddess]

I had occasion to be trying to read a piece of mail through the envelope a couple of days ago.

I had to sort the mail. I have a coworker with an unusual last name. We got a letter addressed to someone with that last name, but with a completely unfamiliar first name. Coworker didn't know anyone by that name. The letter didn't have a return address. We tried to peer through the envelope to see if we could tell if it was junk mail or a real letter. We decided it was junk mail and opened it to be certain before throwing it out. It was junk mail.

Reading someone else's mail is really rotten. I open mail addressed to my husband if it comes from a doctor or hospital since I pay those bills. Otherwise, no way.

[Elendil's Heir]

Reading another person's mail is wrong, even if you don't physically open the envelope. It's an invasion of privacy, and a crime. Don't do it.

I understand that there's not much expectation of privacy in postcards, but I don't even read them if I happen to see they're addressed to someone else. I just avert my gaze. Try it! It's not hard. I won't read a letter addressed to my wife even if she's already opened it, read it and reinserted the paper, unless she gives me permission. I would expect her to show the same courtesy and respect for my privacy, and she does.

[madmonk28]

I can't believe the number of people who seem to think this is okay. It is most certainly unethical. A person has a right to privacy and to violate that privacy whether you use special measure or not is unethical.

[Anne Neville]

Originally Posted by According to Pliny

Oh poor naive baby! People do rummage through my desk drawers all the time. The premise is usually looking for a stapler or scissors, but the real motive is my candy stash. If people didn't do this, then they wouldn't put locks on desks. Such is life in the big city.

In every system of morality that I'm familiar with, something being done by a lot of people doesn't make it OK to do it.

Originally Posted by jsgoddess

I had occasion to be trying to read a piece of mail through the envelope a couple of days ago.

I had to sort the mail. I have a coworker with an unusual last name. We got a letter addressed to someone with that last name, but with a completely unfamiliar first name. Coworker didn't know anyone by that name. The letter didn't have a return address. We tried to peer through the envelope to see if we could tell if it was junk mail or a real letter. We decided it was junk mail and opened it to be certain before throwing it out. It was junk mail.

I'd be OK with reading someone's mail in a case like that, as long as you stopped reading as soon as you determined there was personal information in it, if it hadn't been junk mail.

Reading someone else's mail is really rotten. I open mail addressed to my husband if it comes from a doctor or hospital since I pay those bills. Otherwise, no way.

I feel a little bad about reading mail addressed to Mr. Neville. I only do it if I think it's a bill, because I deal with those. If he got lab test results in the mail, I wouldn't read them without his explicit permission- I wouldn't assume that, because he was OK with me reading the test results he got last week, that he'd be OK with me reading these. I would be very angry with him if he didn't do the same with mail addressed to me.

For anyone other than Mr. Neville, I wouldn't even ask permission, because I don't think I have any business reading their private correspondence. That applies no matter how obnoxious they are- it's not OK to do something wrong to someone just because they're not a nice person. It's certainly not OK to do something wrong because you'll benefit from doing it.

[clayton_e]

Legally are you even allowed to hold/transport/remove from the mailbox or whatever you have, someone else's mail? Even if you don't open it.. Wouldn't that be the same as running up on someone's porch, grabbing the mail from their mailbox, leaving, then returning it a while later (which I assume to be illegal)?

Even if it is mail through the office, technically isn't it "stealing"? What if the guy wanted to read his mail RIGHT THEN. He doesn't have it. You do.

Take someone's stereo for an hour without asking. Return it. Sure, you didn't hurt it, you just wanted to listen to music in your apartment next door. What's that you say? You're shocked your neighbor called the cops when you knocked saying "oh, hey, here ya go, thanks"?

Even if you arn't breaking any laws by some loophole or whatever.. you could just be known as that creepy guy holding everyone's mail up to the light when the secretary isn't looking.