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  #1  
Old 01-14-2007, 01:11 PM
Zsofia Zsofia is offline
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Fuck you, FlyLady!

And fuck me for needing you!

So, I'm a filthy person. I'm one of those people who can every so often mount a cleaning campaign, but who is incapable of cultivating clean habits and ends up right back at the start before you can blink. The awful thing is, I'm a good cook. I like to cook. So that means I have to balance a cutting board on the sink divider and leave all my groceries on the floor because the countertop is full of... suspect things. We play a lot of games of "What's that smell?" in my kitchen. And it doesn't help that my boyfriend isn't a clean person either.

Things are gross at my house. I can't ever have people over without a week's notice, and even then I don't get done what I should. I'm just lazy, and I've got better things to do. But I know if I could just stay clean it would cost a fraction of the effort, and if I could get into the habit it wouldn't even be an issue!

So, I misguidedly signed up for the FlyLady e-mails before, so it's not like I didn't know how irritating she is. But this is the first time I've said, yes, FlyLady, I commit to you. Oh my god I can't stand you you fucking cunt!

So tonight I'm supposed to shine my sink, which will get me in touch with the me I've neglected all this time. And when I look at it, that's the FlyLady hugging me. I can't possibly describe to you how amazingly pissed off I am by that one, single sentence. Not to mention the assumption that I'll be so satisfied and happy by looking at that clean sink!

Which leads us to tomorrow, where my job is to put my shoes on! (And keep an eye on that sink, you never know when it might get a water spot on it!)

Yeah, because all women, particularly women with messy homes, are stay at home mothers who wear their pajamas all day. Thanks. Nothing against stay at home moms, and I know it's gotta be hard to keep the place up when you've got kids, and I'm sure it could help you get on track to take a shower and put your shoes on every day, but excuse me? That's my goal for the second day? Lady, I work. I don't have kids. I pay a mortgage by my very own self, and I don't need you to tell me how to feel about myself, I need you to tell me to pick up around the damned place!

Oh, and don't forget the sink! God knows, the sink is the cornerstone of my existence.

That whole "You're a slob because you don't take care of yourself because you don't think you're worth it!" shit is really what makes me so furious. She sells pens that say "I'm proud of you!", with the comment that for some of you, this may be the first time anybody's ever said that to you. If this is true, you do not need the FlyLady, you need therapy and some better relationships. The nerve of the woman!

Which leads us to "Body Clutter", which is what she's calling my fucking fat rolls. Because of course I got them the same way I got my shithole of a house, which is not loving myself. Honey, loving myself is what got me here - I like to eat, and I don't like to exercise, and I like to do things that are more fun than cleaning my house. That's the point, I've been "taking time for me" all over the fucking place and now I need to "take time for the fucking sink", okay? So let's talk about my actual clutter!

Which we don't get to until DAY FUCKING SIX of our Beginner Babysteps! I am not here to Finally Loving Yourself, I am here to CLEAN MY HOUSE. I do not need a Control Journal where I exorcise my negative thoughts about myself. My negative thoughts about myself are mostly limited to "God, this place is a shithole. I wonder what that smell is?"

Oh, and don't be forgetting that sink. It's an island in a mountain of shit, but don't forget to keep it shining!

I mean, baby steps are one thing. Obviously I need baby steps, because taking one giant step a month has led me to this passage. (I took a giant step today, actually, cleaned the whole kitchen and mopped the damned floor so I can go in there barefoot again. You do not want to know what that smell was, I promise. You might think you do, but you don't.) But don't tell me not to skip any, and then make most of them shit I don't need, shit I don't want, or shit that makes me want to punch you in the face right through the computer screen!

I have never in my life been so anxious about the sink. Am I allowed to keep scrubbies and stuff on that top part? Or will that dim the glory of my fucking sink? Which I am supposed to clean with DENTAL FLOSS?

So I'm going home after work and shining my sink for the first time in my evidently miserable and worthless life. And then I'm going to spit in it. And then I'm going to take a picture and make it my desktop, and write "I'm proud of you!" on it.
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  #2  
Old 01-14-2007, 01:19 PM
Alice The Goon Alice The Goon is offline
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That was so funny! I'm much the same when it comes to housecleaning, but now I have a new boyfriend, so I've been forced by sheer pride to clean regularly. And it does make my mood better to be in a clean, non-cluttered environment, so I'm going to try to keep it up. But it's sooo boring, when there are so many fun things to do in the world. Sigh.


I came across the Flylady a few years ago, but never signed up for emails or anything. Lately I was wondering how to go about finding that sink-cleaning thing and doing it, so thanks for saving me the research! I'll be sure not to sign up for the bullshit that goes along with it.
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  #3  
Old 01-14-2007, 01:19 PM
jacquilynne jacquilynne is offline
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You know it's a voluntary program, right?
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  #4  
Old 01-14-2007, 01:33 PM
Zsofia Zsofia is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jacquilynne
You know it's a voluntary program, right?
Uh, yeah, thanks, I didn't see any FlyLady commandos waiting for me with the orange jumpsuit and sink toothbrush. I just want the useful reminders and nagging without being told the sink ought to be the highlight of my poor, unloved life. I have no desire to turn the feminist clock back a hundred years, but I do want something to help me get it clean and keep it that way.
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  #5  
Old 01-14-2007, 01:38 PM
Zsofia Zsofia is offline
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In fact, I think maybe I'll learn to be a cleaner person by hating the FlyLady. Every piece of crap I put away instead of throwing on a table or the floor, I'll think, "Suck that, FlyLady." When I put the dishes in the dishwasher instead of the sink, I'll imagine I'm beating the FlyLady about the head and neck with them. When I'm throwing moldy things out of the fridge, I'll picture myself shoving them up the FlyLady's fat ass.
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  #6  
Old 01-14-2007, 01:39 PM
Sattua Sattua is offline
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The bitch pissed me off, too, which is why I never even got to the point of signing up. Shining my sink I didn't have a problem with--wearing shoes indoors I did.
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  #7  
Old 01-14-2007, 01:39 PM
Ice Wolf Ice Wolf is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zsofia
In fact, I think maybe I'll learn to be a cleaner person by hating the FlyLady. Every piece of crap I put away instead of throwing on a table or the floor, I'll think, "Suck that, FlyLady." When I put the dishes in the dishwasher instead of the sink, I'll imagine I'm beating the FlyLady about the head and neck with them. When I'm throwing moldy things out of the fridge, I'll picture myself shoving them up the FlyLady's fat ass.
That's the spirit! Give 'er hell! *thumbs up*
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  #8  
Old 01-14-2007, 01:42 PM
tlsapp76 tlsapp76 is offline
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Oh, gawd, that woman is obnoxious. I was on her emails for a while, but she's just such a sanctimonious twat that I cancelled them. Well, actually, I called her on some of her self-important preening bullshit, and she canceled me. There was a lot of self-important preening bullshit, but I think what I finally wrote her about was the iron-clad guarantee that if your attitude toward being the household drudge was sufficiently loving and you took enough joy in the servitude of your family, they'd get off their dead asses and help you out some. It may be true for her husband, but I've never seen any family where it happened like that. What probably got me the boot was that I pointed out that email would never get sent on to list, just the ones that rhapsodized about how amazingly right she is about every single thing under the sun.

Oh, but Alice, if you don't sign up for the emails, you won't get any of her God Breezes, where she pontificates about everything from how laziness causes thyroid malfunction to how people who are clinically depressed need to stop whining and get off their frannies and take a baby step.

The sad thing is that the actual system is pretty good. Doing a little bit here and a little bit there really does make the big clean up go a whale of a lot faster and easier. Plus, since it's never really that bad, it's easier to motivate yourself to do a big cleanup.

Flylady is really nothing but an adaptation of an older system called Sidetracked Home Executive. I've not read that book, but I fully intend to in the next few weeks. Near as I can tell, the big difference in the systems is how you track what you've done and what you need to do. It seems like maybe the women who wrote that book also have a website--maybe they're not such twerps?
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  #9  
Old 01-14-2007, 01:47 PM
Sunspace Sunspace is online now
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A friend told me about Flylady, and I checked out the website, but I was turned off by the sexism of the whole thing: assuming that everyone who has a problem with clutter and cleaning is a woman, and that guys never need help in keeping tidy as well.
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Rigardu, kaj vi ekvidos.
Look, and you will begin to see.
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  #10  
Old 01-14-2007, 01:49 PM
Zsofia Zsofia is offline
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I'd just like to point out that the subject heading for that Sidetracked Home Executives book is "Housewives - Time management". Fuck you, Library of Congress. Fuck you long and fuck you hard.
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  #11  
Old 01-14-2007, 01:50 PM
WhyNot WhyNot is offline
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So start a new group email just listing a useful task every day without the empowerment hugs and snuggles crap. Hell, I'd sign up. It's not that I don't know what needs to be done, it's that I can't figure out where the hell to start.

I got good at this for a bit and now I'm buried again. And I have in-laws coming over this weekend. Could you start this advice email like today, please? Or maybe a thread in MPSIMS? We could take turns offering tasks for the day or something.


(I'm trying to figure out how dental floss might be employed in the cleaning of a sink. Me, I sprinkle a bunch of stainless steel polish powder, sponge and rinse. What depths of filth am I leaving untouched with this method?)
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  #12  
Old 01-14-2007, 02:00 PM
tlsapp76 tlsapp76 is offline
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No dental floss? Oh, my laws! Don't you know you're supposed to ream out the crud that gets up against the metal rim of the sink? And what about the bases of your faucet and handles?

::faints from the horror::
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  #13  
Old 01-14-2007, 02:08 PM
Dangerosa Dangerosa is offline
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I think it would be so helpful if someone would design home cleaning tracking software. You put in things like how clean you want your house (from "not too gross" to "I can eat off the toilet") and how many rooms (how many bedrooms, how many living rooms - even how many refrigerators you have to clean (hey, some people have an extra in the garage or basement.) You put in when you have time to clean (not Thursday nights or anytime during the day cause I work, but I'll do it Saturdays and Wednesday nights), it comes up with a gap analysis (honey, you can't have toilets you can eat off of if you have seven of them and only spend every other Saturday morning cleaning), comes up with a cleaning schedule, sends you reminders, and keeps a log (didn't get the fridge cleaned this Saturday, move it to next. Move it three times, make it a priority task.

FlyLady does have a problem in that she is perfect for a certain type of person - someone who is home during the day and is avoiding life by sitting in front of the PC who has self esteem issues and doesn't mind wearing shoes (that tie) inside the house (I don't know if I own shoes that tie). She starts falling short with pretty much everyone else and has to be adapted.
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  #14  
Old 01-14-2007, 02:20 PM
WhyNot WhyNot is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dangerosa
FlyLady does have a problem in that she is perfect for a certain type of person - someone who is home during the day and is avoiding life by sitting in front of the PC who has self esteem issues and doesn't mind wearing shoes (that tie) inside the house (I don't know if I own shoes that tie). She starts falling short with pretty much everyone else and has to be adapted.
Shit. This actually is exactly me.

*sigh* I've never even heard of this lady! Why is her target audience (me) unaware when all y'all know about her?

And yes, I just signed up for her email. Off to scrub my sink.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tlsapp76
No dental floss? Oh, my laws! Don't you know you're supposed to ream out the crud that gets up against the metal rim of the sink? And what about the bases of your faucet and handles?
Y'know, that's a huge part of my problem. I just don't SEE dirt or clutter until it's a hazard. I just looked, and yup, there's sort of a brown gunky buildup at the bottom of my faucet fixture. Huh. Whoda thunk it? My husband is in awe of my ability to walk without looking through a room full of books, old takeaway containers, junk mail and toys without stepping on a thing and then honestly going "what clutter?"
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Old 01-14-2007, 02:22 PM
Zsofia Zsofia is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhyNot
So start a new group email just listing a useful task every day without the empowerment hugs and snuggles crap. Hell, I'd sign up. It's not that I don't know what needs to be done, it's that I can't figure out where the hell to start.

I got good at this for a bit and now I'm buried again. And I have in-laws coming over this weekend. Could you start this advice email like today, please? Or maybe a thread in MPSIMS? We could take turns offering tasks for the day or something.


(I'm trying to figure out how dental floss might be employed in the cleaning of a sink. Me, I sprinkle a bunch of stainless steel polish powder, sponge and rinse. What depths of filth am I leaving untouched with this method?)
That's the thing - her actual stuff about actual stuff in your house is really useful. (Take five minutes tonight and hit one of those "hot spots" that you always dump crap on. Do it with a timer. See, this is useful. Now go shine your damned sink!)

Hell, for free I'll call you once a day and screech "DO YOU KNOW WHERE YOUR SINK IS?" into your ear. In fact, I'll pay you to let me do that. I think my life would be so much better and calmer!

In other words, I'm sure that if you signed up for FlyLady e-mails and got very rigorous about your e-mail filters you'd have a very good reminder system. That's kind of what I'm trying to do. Although that "god breeze" shit really does help me build a good stock of FlyLady hatin' fire!
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  #16  
Old 01-14-2007, 02:59 PM
Taber Taber is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zsofia
(I took a giant step today, actually, cleaned the whole kitchen and mopped the damned floor so I can go in there barefoot again.
I think I figured out why she suggests wearing shoes today.
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  #17  
Old 01-14-2007, 03:11 PM
Zsofia Zsofia is offline
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Originally Posted by Taber
I think I figured out why she suggests wearing shoes today.
No, all I'm supposed to do today is shine the sink. Tomorrow I wear shoes. Lace up shoes. Slip ons rot your soul and also they aren't proud of you.
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  #18  
Old 01-14-2007, 03:14 PM
WhyNot WhyNot is offline
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A Pit inspired MPSIMS PIT of myself that I almost put here but I think it would be too hijacky can be found here.
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  #19  
Old 01-14-2007, 03:41 PM
UntouchedTakeaway UntouchedTakeaway is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tlsapp76
Oh, gawd, that woman is obnoxious. I was on her emails for a while, but she's just such a sanctimonious twat that I cancelled them. Well, actually, I called her on some of her self-important preening bullshit, and she canceled me. There was a lot of self-important preening bullshit, but I think what I finally wrote her about was the iron-clad guarantee that if your attitude toward being the household drudge was sufficiently loving and you took enough joy in the servitude of your family, they'd get off their dead asses and help you out some. It may be true for her husband, but I've never seen any family where it happened like that. What probably got me the boot was that I pointed out that email would never get sent on to list, just the ones that rhapsodized about how amazingly right she is about every single thing under the sun.

Oh, but Alice, if you don't sign up for the emails, you won't get any of her God Breezes, where she pontificates about everything from how laziness causes thyroid malfunction to how people who are clinically depressed need to stop whining and get off their frannies and take a baby step.

The sad thing is that the actual system is pretty good. Doing a little bit here and a little bit there really does make the big clean up go a whale of a lot faster and easier. Plus, since it's never really that bad, it's easier to motivate yourself to do a big cleanup.

Flylady is really nothing but an adaptation of an older system called Sidetracked Home Executive. I've not read that book, but I fully intend to in the next few weeks. Near as I can tell, the big difference in the systems is how you track what you've done and what you need to do. It seems like maybe the women who wrote that book also have a website--maybe they're not such twerps?

My mother used a method that I swear the Sidetracked Home Executive ladies stole - lol There's also a similar method described briefly in "The Womens Room" by Marilyn French (which may not be a glowing recommendation - heh) Anyway, it involves index cards for big jobs (like washing woodwork, china, drapes - stuff like that) to help you get to everything. I use a modified version myself - it does help.

VCNJ~
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  #20  
Old 01-14-2007, 03:46 PM
Lynn Bodoni Lynn Bodoni is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tlsapp76
The sad thing is that the actual system is pretty good. Doing a little bit here and a little bit there really does make the big clean up go a whale of a lot faster and easier. Plus, since it's never really that bad, it's easier to motivate yourself to do a big cleanup.

Flylady is really nothing but an adaptation of an older system called Sidetracked Home Executive. I've not read that book, but I fully intend to in the next few weeks. Near as I can tell, the big difference in the systems is how you track what you've done and what you need to do. It seems like maybe the women who wrote that book also have a website--maybe they're not such twerps?
They are WORSE. I read their original book, and dear Og. Dear Og. I know why the sisters never had time to clean their houses...they sat around and wrote poetry all day. Bad poetry, the kind that would be rejected by sixth grade girls as too soppy. What's more, they put a great deal of this poetry in their book.

The systems are actually pretty good, but they are tailored for one type of woman (and not tailored for men at all), the woman who is religious and feels a deep need to ENJOY doing her housework. I do housework because I enjoy the results, not because I enjoy the process. I am completely uninterested in blessing my house, smiling while I'm scrubbing, and all the other bullshit that FlyLady and the Slob Sisters urge me to do. I'm also completely uninterested in buying FlyLady merchandise.
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  #21  
Old 01-14-2007, 03:49 PM
Savannah Savannah is online now
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Heh. I tried Flylady when we had just moved, but I really couldn't get motivated to unpack and actually set up the house. (It was a forced move, not a move by choice, and it depressed me.) I was working part-time, so I thought I'd try it since I'd be home (and surfing, er, writing, at the computer) to recieve the emails.

First of all, "Flylady" just made me think of a bloated, blackened, maggot-blown corpse, and second... Well, everything in the OP.

I don't really care for wearing shoes in the house, so I even got some five dollar canvas sneakers that lace.

And I tried the "do the unpleasant thing for 15 minutes" and see how far you can get! And the tour around the house throwing things out thing.

But Flylady is NOT for me.

I love a clean, pleasant, well-ordered house as much as the next person, but the grating Christianity, perky, cheery tone of it was like being hectored by someone who has an entirely different life than me. Wait. It is being hectored by someone with an entirely different life than me.

House is a mess now because I'm still sick. But when I'm feeling better, I'll go back to my own method for dealing with housekeeping:

- A place for everything, and everything in its place
- Clean as you go
- It's easier to put out small fires than big ones
- Clutter encourages clutter
- 15 minutes can make a big dent in cleaning/tidying/chores
- Put 25 objects away and you'll see a difference. (I actually trot around, counting, as I tidy. After 25, it's back to the book/computer/TV/project.)
- An mp3 player and headphones make a huge difference for me. I'll actually hang around in the kitchen, doing more cleaning, just to keep listening to the tunes.

Flylady can take a flying...
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  #22  
Old 01-14-2007, 03:51 PM
Savannah Savannah is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lynn Bodoni
I do housework because I enjoy the results, not because I enjoy the process.
Hear, hear!
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  #23  
Old 01-14-2007, 03:51 PM
jacquilynne jacquilynne is offline
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Originally Posted by Zsofia
Uh, yeah, thanks, I didn't see any FlyLady commandos waiting for me with the orange jumpsuit and sink toothbrush. I just want the useful reminders and nagging without being told the sink ought to be the highlight of my poor, unloved life. I have no desire to turn the feminist clock back a hundred years, but I do want something to help me get it clean and keep it that way.
Right, but my point is, if she's making you these exceedingly angry, her reminders aren't going to do anything but piss you off.

I signed up for FlyLady once, got to about half way through the second day and thought, 'this is idiotic, my house is a mess, not my psyche' and unsubscribed from the list. I don't disagree with you that her approach is bizarre and lame in many ways, I just don't see why you don't just unsub and move on with your life.
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  #24  
Old 01-14-2007, 03:53 PM
Quiddity Glomfuster Quiddity Glomfuster is offline
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Not getting all the fury. You don't want to shine your sink, don't. You don't want to check your hot spot, don't. But on the days when time flies by and your eyeballs glaze over there's an email reminding you to do what slipped your mind.

Or you can use it to help build your own system on.

BTW the Control Journal isn't where you vent. It's your set of checklists to get yourself through regular cleanups. You could make yourself a Control Journal and never revert to the website. You can change the terminology.

It's not the shiny sink that's the point, it's creating one oasis of cleanliness that inspires you to want more. For me, it's having stove and counters clear so I have room to cook so this means the dishes need to be done - hence 'shiny sink'. It's the touch-point for a routine but I read some testimonials where people chose a clean bathroom or a clean bedroom to be their touch-points.

I'd suggest rather than tossing all of Flylady in the trash, you poke around and see what might be useful to you and incorporate it. I'm never going to wear shoes in my house but I'm still getting better about tidying. Gradually.
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  #25  
Old 01-14-2007, 04:01 PM
Zsofia Zsofia is offline
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Yeah, I'm gonna take what I can from it. I know it does really work for a lot of people, and something in my life has just got to give. I mean, I hate my house the way it is. It just drives me nuts. And I have got to have somebody to tell me what to do, so I actually do it. But that doesn't mean I can't resent the living hell out of it.
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  #26  
Old 01-14-2007, 04:03 PM
Annie Annie is offline
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Originally Posted by Zsofia
Fuck you, Library of Congress. Fuck you long and fuck you hard.
Hey, don't do them any favors!
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  #27  
Old 01-14-2007, 04:06 PM
Gut Gut is offline
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I have to ask. Why does she want you to wear shoes in the house?
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  #28  
Old 01-14-2007, 04:14 PM
Idlewild Idlewild is offline
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Because if no-one wears shoes in the house we can't have multi-page debates over whether shoes on or shoes off is the correct way to live.
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  #29  
Old 01-14-2007, 04:17 PM
Zsofia Zsofia is offline
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Originally Posted by Gut
I have to ask. Why does she want you to wear shoes in the house?
Because you're going to stay in your pajamas with your three hundred babies in diapers otherwise, and you won't "do your face" or "fix your hair". And you'll never catch a man that way.

Honestly, it's good advice for stay at home moms sometimes to get dressed every single day. But, you know, most of us aren't stay at home moms. People with messy houses might even be men!
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  #30  
Old 01-14-2007, 04:17 PM
Gut Gut is offline
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Ahhh yes, of course. How silly of me to forget!
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  #31  
Old 01-14-2007, 04:57 PM
faithfool faithfool is offline
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I'm not sure about the successfulness of these programs, but they seem to be alternatives to religious-themed systems....

Possibility 1
Possibility 2

and finally, a Yahoo! group.

Possibility 3


I'm sure there are more to Google up (I used 'clean + organize + home + subscribe' -- although there's probably better ways to go about it) that might serve your needs better. Hope this may help some, so us Dopers don't have to read about a Flylady lynch mob in the papers. Preventative maintenance people! And this has so intrigued me ('cause I'd never heard of this before), that although I already clean this way, a daily reminder wouldn't hurt and could touch on things I hadn't dreamed of. Shiny sink my ass.

If anyone does give any of these a try, lemme know how they work for ya. It'd be nice to compare notes (and SINKS) and all.
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  #32  
Old 01-14-2007, 05:00 PM
amarinth amarinth is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zsofia
That whole "You're a slob because you don't take care of yourself because you don't think you're worth it!" shit is really what makes me so furious. She sells pens that say "I'm proud of you!", with the comment that for some of you, this may be the first time anybody's ever said that to you. If this is true, you do not need the FlyLady, you need therapy and some better relationships. The nerve of the woman!
A lot of these programs (cleaning, organizing, weight loss) seem to be aimed at people who really do need that message. That and the "take time for yourself" "feel ok to spend money on yourself."

I'm incredibly single. I have no kids. My parents are still young enough to take care of themselves. Taking time for myself is not a problem - all my time is for myself. I also spend money on myself all the time. Taking care of myself is not an issue - and taking even more care of myself is not going to make me thin or give me a clean apartment. (Why someone would think so shows a strange inability to understand cause and effect)

The most ridiculous one I saw was that if I really liked myself, I'd feel free to spend money to treat myself to a new vacuum cleaner.

My self doesn't want a vaccum cleaner. It wants a weekend at the beach. Guess which is more likely to happen? And it isn't going to make my apartment nicer.

The fly lady is evil though. Purely evil. Get out while you can and away from her cult of flies. I bought the notecards for the sidetracked home executive. I never actually opened the box once I finished writing out the chores. Trying to put the list of chores in a database was equally as successful. But they're far less obnoxious that FL.
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  #33  
Old 01-14-2007, 06:25 PM
Zabali_Clawbane Zabali_Clawbane is offline
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I respect myself just fine, and I don't wear shoes indoors. In the winter I wear slippers, but that's it. Does FlyLady realize that some people have *very* sweaty feet, and that wearing shoes all the time (and not letting your feet get fully aired) can lead to fungal infections, or just icky gross skin? My feet get itchy if I wear shoes too much, I find it is more healthful to go barefoot in my home. The floors are clean and maintained. If by chance something should break or there is a hazardous spill, I can throw on some loafers to deal with it.
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  #34  
Old 01-14-2007, 06:36 PM
Quiddity Glomfuster Quiddity Glomfuster is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gut
I have to ask. Why does she want you to wear shoes in the house?
I think the point is that people who are depressed or have low self-esteem tend to not take care of themselves and part of that is letting their appearance slide. The idea is to get you up and dressed and tidy so that you'll feel better about yourself.

Again, if you're not in need of advice that helps you feel less gloomy, skip it. But there are lots and lots of women (the membership's up to 300,000) who clearly find it very helpful.

Another rationale behind the shoe thing, I gather, is so you're ready for emergencies like having to drive to school and pick up a sick kid (or walk through the broken glass if you've had an earthquake) but I just ignore it. I do, however, have shoes nearby in case The Big One smacks us.

Yes, she's a little preachy, but if you read her own story, she's a reformed slob and like all reformed anybodies, she's a little fervent about the methods that pulled her out of her slump.
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  #35  
Old 01-14-2007, 06:43 PM
Zabali_Clawbane Zabali_Clawbane is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quiddity Glomfuster
I think the point is that people who are depressed or have low self-esteem tend to not take care of themselves and part of that is letting their appearance slide. The idea is to get you up and dressed and tidy so that you'll feel better about yourself.

Putting clothes on is fine, but shoes in the house? Shoes track things from outdoors, and in general track more dirt than bare feet do IME. (I encourage guests to take their shoes off by the door if they are so inclined, too.) What about washing your feet and applying lotion, then getting dressed? Would that fit the bill? How about having a pair of comfy "house shoes" that aren't slippers but that you wear only in the house? (If you can stand to wear shoes all the time, that is.) Zsofia, maybe you can ask the FlyLady about this, explaining your aversion for shoes as much as you are comfortable with revealing and asking if instead you could wash and lotion your feet/put on special houseshoes/don clean socks?
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  #36  
Old 01-14-2007, 06:48 PM
jsgoddess jsgoddess is offline
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I don't know FlyLady from Adam, but the point about the sink makes some sense to me. A sink, generally, is small and not too filthy. It's a good place to start. Cleaning it can be done relatively quickly, and then the whole point is keeping it clean. Spending a few seconds every day keeping it clean makes everything much easier. It wouldn't make sense if she said, "Clean the sink," and then forgot about that, because sinks are something that are constantly in use, constantly being dirtied.

I wear shoes all the time, so that one doesn't mean anything to me.

And I'd say that a lot of women do gain weight because they don't value their own bodies/health as much as they should. And that can be symbolized for some people by never really getting dressed in the morning. One of the first things my husband was told when he was diagnosed with depression was to get up and dressed and shave every morning instead of wearing slippers and a robe all day.
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  #37  
Old 01-14-2007, 07:12 PM
Stillwell Angel Stillwell Angel is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zabali_Clawbane
maybe you can ask the FlyLady about this, explaining your aversion for shoes as much as you are comfortable with revealing
I tried this a few years ago. I emailed her and (very politely) questioned this rule, for various reasons listed by a few people above. She responded back in what I can only describe as a very stern (and bitchy) tone. She was curt and to the point that this rule MUST be followed and to acted like if I felt like disobeying it I was probably not cut out for her group and could unsubscribe.

Guess which option I chose
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  #38  
Old 01-14-2007, 08:08 PM
Frank Frank is offline
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I can't think of any reason one couldn't stay in pajamas and robe and put shoes and socks on.
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  #39  
Old 01-14-2007, 08:17 PM
Eliahna Eliahna is online now
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I used to subscribe to FLYlady, but it was more annoying than anything... especially with the time difference. I'd get an email wishing me "Good morning! Put your shoes on!" as I was about to head to bed, and in the middle of the day she'd be telling me to "Shine your sink and head to bed!".

FLYlady did inspire me to do some things though (although, sharing the aversion to shoes that others express, I never even attempted to follow that rule). One system that I found worked for me was to use a timer and set myself 15 minute cleaning goals. See, the reason I struggle with housework is because I get bored and tend to wander off without meaning to. I'll start doing the dishes, and I'll be daydreaming, and I'll get onto a train of thought and suddenly I will urgently need to check a fact RIGHT NOW, so I run off "just for a minute" to look it up, and an hour later I'm still on the computer furiously researching something that doesn't even resemble the original thought that lured me from the dishes in the first place...

So, I set an alarm for 15 minutes and then I throw myself into a chore (say... the dishes). At the end of 15 minutes - even if I haven't finished - I move onto a second chore (like... sorting laundry) and I do that until the alarm rings again, at which point I move onto a third chore (perhaps... vacuuming). After that third bell rings, I take 15 minutes to sit and do whatever I want - fact checking on the net, sitting on the couch listening to music, have a cup of tea, whatever. When the alarm sounds, I start over again and keep at it until each job is done. By breaking my housecleaning down into 15 minute blocks, I never end up wandering off through boredom, and knowing I'm working against a timer tends to make me work faster to get it done. It's probably not efficient to have three half-done jobs on the go at once, but it works for me... when I do it.

Living on my own now, I find the house stays pretty clean anyway. Unlike the grand old days of yore, I don't think I could stretch washing my dishes out to a 15 minute job because there's hardly anything on the sink. I think I'd have to drop it to ten minute sessions.
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  #40  
Old 01-14-2007, 08:25 PM
Ca3799 Ca3799 is offline
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Join Date: Feb 2003
I got alot of good ideas from Flylady. It changed the way I manage my house which was a huge help.

I kept the good ideas and dumped the membership after I picked up the new, good habits. I never did the 'journal'- too much work for me.

(She does tell you to not let her emails clutter up your inbox- delete, delete! Rest assured they will be sent again when and if you are ready for them.)
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  #41  
Old 01-14-2007, 08:37 PM
abbeytxs abbeytxs is offline
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Join Date: Jan 2004
[QUOTE=Zsofia]Because you're going to stay in your pajamas with your three hundred babies in diapers otherwise, and you won't "do your face" or "fix your hair". And you'll never catch a man that way.[/QUOTE

I'm thinking if you have "three hundred babies in diapers" you probably have already figured out how to catch a man.
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  #42  
Old 01-14-2007, 08:46 PM
tlsapp76 tlsapp76 is offline
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When I was on it years ago, her explanation for the shoes was that a) having shoes on "tells your brain it's time for work" and b) having tie shoes instead of slip-ons prevents you crawling into the bed and napping all day.
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  #43  
Old 01-14-2007, 09:36 PM
Dangerosa Dangerosa is offline
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Join Date: Feb 2000
Quote:
Originally Posted by tlsapp76
When I was on it years ago, her explanation for the shoes was that a) having shoes on "tells your brain it's time for work" and b) having tie shoes instead of slip-ons prevents you crawling into the bed and napping all day.
Yep, there is a certain "honey, if FlyLady rings too true to you, you should probably talk to your doctor" truth to FlyLady. Not that her hints aren't bad - I give my kids grocery bags and tell them to find 20 things to throw away. And I'll use the 15 minute timer trick too. But I'm not wearing shoes.
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  #44  
Old 01-14-2007, 10:14 PM
Hedda Rosa Hedda Rosa is online now
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FlyLady was enormously helpful to me once I took all the good bits, bought the book to refer to and unsubscribed from the damn e-mails. I even keep a control journal, do a morning and night routine and so on. And yep I'm a stay-at-home mom with 2 kids under 5.

Her style completely drives me right out of my tree, but the underlying concepts work, if you need some direction to keep your house from sliding into a clutter nightmare. I can't remember the last time I shined my sink, but Monday is my Living Room day, Tuesday is my Kitchen day, Wednesday is my Bathroom day and so on.

For me the best part of having a cleaning system is that it allows me to forgive myself filth the rest of the week. If I see big cleaning jobs that need doing in the bathroom, but it isn't Wednesday then screw it - it can wait.

Lord knows her style isn't for everyone. It isn't even for me. But a checklisty thing with the stuff I need to get done each week to stay on top of the mess? You bet.
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  #45  
Old 01-14-2007, 10:47 PM
Spice Weasel Spice Weasel is offline
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Join Date: Jan 2007
Wow. I read this out loud to my husband and we spent a good 5 minutes laughing hysterically. He was actually doubled over on the floor. So, congratulations on a fabulous rant. It is an inspiration to those of us who would rant in the future!

I don't know if this bit of housecleaning advice would help at all. I have been a rather messy person for most of my life. I'm a "packrat" kind of person who keeps boxes of old letters and crap like that--and, as a result, I get so overwhelmed by my own stuff. Last year my husband did the majority of the cleaning. It's just hard for me, when I have to clean, to persevere. I get overwhelmed very easily because of all that stuff.

So over Winter break, I did something rather novel. I got rid of a bunch of shit. I mean, a ton. I saved only the most important letters. I got rid of all that crap I've been keeping out of guilt because it was a gift -- my husband helped in this regard, he can literally get rid of something he doesn't want within hours of receiving it, guilt free. The idea, if you struggle with the pack-rat tendency, is to just get rid of anything you aren't ever going to use or don't want--no matter how guilty that might make you feel. I had to let go of my attachment to stuff. It was difficult. I had about seven large plastic bins stacked in the corner of our only bedroom (1-bedroom apartment, very small space)--in one day, I narrowed it down to a solitary bin. We had an overflow of books so we bought some new bookcases. The key was GETTING RID of stuff --some we donated, some sold on e-bay, and the junk we just threw away.

My point is, once all that extraneous crap was gone, we were left with a very small amount of stuff to organize. It made cleaning SO much easier, and much less overwhelming. So we cleaned the house to spotless-- EVERYTHING has it's place, which isn't as hard because there's at least 50% less stuff than we started with.

Next: the challenging/weird part. You have to seriously pick up after yourself EVERY TIME. If you use a glass, you don't leave the room until you've taken care of the glass and put it in the dishwasher/hand-washed it and put it away. If you buy something new, the first thing you have to do when you get home is find a place for it. As someone who is perpetually lazy, this part SUCKS. Make the bed every morning, first thing when you wake up. If you read a book, don't leave it sitting somewhere--put it back on the bookshelf. After the first few times doing this, you come to realize it doesn't take much time at all. Making the bed every morning is a pain in the ass but it takes 30 seconds. Pretty much all this "picking up after yourself as you go" shit takes like 30 seconds per event.

Believe me, it's WORTH it. Our house has been spotless for nearly a month. I don't mean it gets messy and then we clean it again--I mean it still, after a month, looks as clean and organized as it did one month ago, and it has day after day. Every weekend we vacuum and dust and clean the bathroom and all that odd stuff--but because there's nothing to pick up off the floors, this takes approximately 1 hour to complete. So if you can take those odd 30-second events of always taking care of shit immediately when you're done with it, you can look forward to spending maybe an hour a week on upkeep. No shit.

I'm only suggesting this because I feel like a miracle must have happened. You would cry if you knew how much junk I had and how cluttered this house--all of my living spaces, throughout history, ever--used to be. I wouldn't believe this were a possibility if I hadn't seen it happen myself. So if I can do it, anybody can.

Step 1: Get rid of everything you own that is not fundamental or necessary to who you are as a person. Don't second guess yourself-if you thought for a moment it would be good to get rid of, you're right. (I don't know if you suffer from pack-rat syndrome or not--but that's where it started for me.)
Step 2: Find a place for everything. EVERYTHING.
Step 3: Never let anything get out of place for longer than you're using it.

Hope that helps in some way, at least. If it doesn't, please don't pit me.

Olives,
Christy
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  #46  
Old 01-14-2007, 11:01 PM
JohnT JohnT is offline
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Olive, that's exactly how my wife and I live. The amount of stuff that we don't have compared to other people is stunning... and yet we're always complimented on how clean our house is.
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  #47  
Old 01-14-2007, 11:48 PM
Telperien Telperien is offline
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Join Date: Aug 2004
Hmm, if someone suggested to her that wearing shoes in the house would likely add to the filth and clutter than otherwise, do you think she'd be pissed?
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  #48  
Old 01-15-2007, 12:25 AM
dangermom dangermom is offline
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Join Date: Feb 2000
Quote:
Originally Posted by Twiddle
FlyLady was enormously helpful to me once I took all the good bits, bought the book to refer to and unsubscribed from the damn e-mails. I even keep a control journal, do a morning and night routine and so on. And yep I'm a stay-at-home mom with 2 kids under 5.

Her style completely drives me right out of my tree, but the underlying concepts work, if you need some direction to keep your house from sliding into a clutter nightmare. I can't remember the last time I shined my sink, but Monday is my Living Room day, Tuesday is my Kitchen day, Wednesday is my Bathroom day and so on.

For me the best part of having a cleaning system is that it allows me to forgive myself filth the rest of the week. If I see big cleaning jobs that need doing in the bathroom, but it isn't Wednesday then screw it - it can wait.

Lord knows her style isn't for everyone. It isn't even for me. But a checklisty thing with the stuff I need to get done each week to stay on top of the mess? You bet.
I could have written this post. I hated the website and the emails, but I got the book and used the ideas. Having a structure and days to get the jobs done helped me a lot. And I even know that if I miss doing the bathroom this Thursday, I'll be doing it next Thursday, and it won't be that bad in between.
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  #49  
Old 01-15-2007, 03:37 AM
Adoptamom_II Adoptamom_II is offline
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Join Date: Mar 2002
My mother is a slob and a packrat and I took after her, never learning how to clean or to take any pride in my home. I truly didn't have a clue yet wanted a presentable home and didn't know where to start.

Pre-internet a good friend introduced me to The Side Tracked Home Executive because I was moaning about my nasty house yet again. I devoured the book, learned a lot, implemented a few routines and started decluttering but something was still missing.

Then I heard about Don Aslett and bought his books Clutter's Last Stand and Is There Life After Housework? Hungrily read them and decluttered a bit more.

Flylady came along and I subscribed because although I knew what I was supposed to do, I just wasn't doing it on a regular basis and I thought her reminders would help. That was back in her early days and she was helpful in getting routines established. Then I went to work outside of our home and the house went to hell in a hand basket.

Somewhere along the line, I took everything I'd learned from all three systems and modified them to fit our home. First I used an index card system similar to Pam and Peggy's. Then, I tried to design something using Outlook's task reminder. Finally, I just put all of the tasks I wanted to get done into a weekly table with chores divided into daily, weekly, monthly, quarterly, semi annually, and annually and laminated that sucker and taped it to the front of my refrigerator. That's what has worked most consistently.

A few months ago we moved into a new house that perfectly suits my soul. I was determined to get rid of everything I absolutely didn't love before we moved in and keep up with my routines. I resubscribed to Flylady as a checkpoint to see if daily reminders would help me keep on top of things in the new place, but have recently decided to unsubscribe because of all the touchy feeling stuff that she's incorporated - blech! I don't need no freaking purple puddles of tears to inspire me, TYVM.

Anyway, what has worked consistently over the years for me is to make a master list of what HAS to be done year round and dividing it into manageable daily list that are arranged in a weekly calendar format. It's been tweaked a few times depending on my working status. I also visit Organized Home fairly often to get inspiration. I'm in the process of retweaking my weekly cleaning calendar because the AdoptaKids are older and taking on more responsibilities now, and frankly the chores have changed to suit the new house.

Best of luck in figuring out what works for YOU. Some folks are born organized (not me!), some find success with a system designed by someone else (definitely had it's time in my life when I was learning) and some of us use a system uniquely our own that we've designed based on what we learn from others. Whatever works - the journey is worth it. Clean and decluttered is infinitely better than messy and embarrassing - I should know - I've been on both sides
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  #50  
Old 01-15-2007, 06:18 AM
WhyNot WhyNot is offline
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Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Sweet Home Chicago
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Telperien
Hmm, if someone suggested to her that wearing shoes in the house would likely add to the filth and clutter than otherwise, do you think she'd be pissed?
She recommends shoes. They don't have to be outside shoes. She suggests if you're worried about tracking in dirt that you keep a pair of house shoes for wear indoors only.
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