A blueprint for religious harmony.

[newcrasher]

ATHEISTS:

I know you have a lot of reasons not to believe. But stop trying to convince people of faith that they are wrong. And stop painting all theists as ignorant homophobe hicks. Sure some are, but bigotry and prickishness does nto discriminate for religiosity.



THEISTS:

Stop trying to beat people over the head with your views. If your God is so great, you certainly cannot fathom His "will" for yourself, let alone others.

Try this...live your life in such a way that those outside of your specific religiosity will WANT to be a part of it. You may believe you have a "Great Commission" to spread the word, but here is a something you may want to notice; people know about your "religion". Most of those who have chosen to take a pass on it do so because they think checking your intellect at the door and becoming an "Asshat - Admiral Class" is a requirement. So fucking cut it out!






That is all.

Can we agree on this?

[Lemur866]

That's not a blueprint, it's a collection of platitudes.

[Captain Amazing]

Originally Posted by newcrasher

Most of those who have chosen to take a pass on it do so because they think checking your intellect at the door and becoming an "Asshat - Admiral Class" is a requirement.

I think most of those who have chosen to take a pass on it do so because they think that religion is wrong.

But it seems like what you're saying is, we could all have religious harmony as long as nobody talks about religion.

[Lemur866]

I see, Captain....so...your plan is....HOLY WAR AGAINST THOSE THAT TALK ABOUT RELIGION. Smite the Religious-talkers! Destroy them, root and branch! Crush them without mercy and let the streets run with their blood!

[Captain Amazing]

Originally Posted by Lemur866

I see, Captain....so...your plan is....HOLY WAR AGAINST THOSE THAT TALK ABOUT RELIGION. Smite the Religious-talkers! Destroy them, root and branch! Crush them without mercy and let the streets run with their blood!

Well, yes, but to be fair, that's really my plan for everything.

[DanBlather]

As a representative of Atheists I hereby proclaim we will tear down the Atheist churches, repeal the Atheist tax breaks, stop going door to door to convert theists, get rid of all the Atheist programming on TV and radio, and stop wearing our special hats and clothes. Can we keep our Darwin stickers though?

[Heckxx]

Atheists:

Theres no need to try to convince others that their religion/God is false, unless it will benefit them. Religion, regardless of whether God is there, benefits people ethically and emotionally.


Theists:

Theres no need to try to convince non-believers into your religion, unless it will benefit them. Trying too hard to forcibly convince people can have an opposite and detrimental effect.

[Revenant Threshold]

What, atheism doesn't benefit people emotionally and ethically? It's certainly helped me with my rage, you bastard!

[Lightnin']

You know, I've actually been thinking a lot about this topic today, thanks to a recent CNN Paula Zahn episode which dealt with discrimination against atheists. One thing, however- her panel included two Christians and one Jew- but no actual, you know, atheist.

Their findings? Everyone will get along just fine with atheists, if the atheists will stop talking about their lack of belief in god, and stop "persecuting" theists by insisting that "Under God" and "In God We Trust" and school prayer be removed.

Is that the sort of thing you're looking for?

[Mangetout]

Can't we just be excellent to one another, or something?

[jsgoddess]

Originally Posted by Heckxx

Religion, regardless of whether God is there, benefits people ethically and emotionally.


Theists:

Theres no need to try to convince non-believers into your religion, unless it will benefit them.

You just said that religion benefits people. So you're justifying theistic proselytizing.

[Omegaman]

The Golden Rule

[Beaucarnea]

I'm sorry, newcrasher, I decline to participate in your proposal . When Christians stop encroaching on civil rights, I promise to keep my mouth shut. Until then, I will complain, debate, and attempt to propose alternative beliefs whenever the proper forum is available.

But I can guarantee that in 36 years I have never been vocal about atheism in real life interactions and that only nearest and dearest know my orientation. My peripheral friends, co-workers and strangers assume I am a Christian because I live in the South, and I don't correct them, or refuse their proselytizing. I have never felt a need to convert or even share my point of view with friends or strangers unless I was certain that my companions shared my perspective.

I agree with you that there is no need to stir up trouble, make others uncomfortable, or soapbox so long as everyone is minding their own business. I promise to avoid the subject in almost all social interactions-unless there are a group of people who willingly engage in a mostly civil debate like say... on a message board. I will try not to start any arguments, but I am very likely to join one in progress if only to share my point of view.

[Mangetout]

Suppression of debate might lead to more misunderstanding than at present. Open discussion is good. Shut up and listen to me.

[Voyager]

We don't even have to go as far as the OP.

Live your life in whatever way your faith or lack thereof tells you to. Let everyone else live their lives the way their faith or lack thereof tells them to.

if someone wants to give up sex and dancing because they think god told them to, fine. If someone isn't very convinced by your tale of eternal damnation, leave 'em be.

Let your proseltyzing be push instead of pull. We all know where the churches are - you don't have to come Saturday morning and tell us. We all know where the doors of the churches are. But if someone wants to use them, you don't have to treat them like a leper. Shunning should be right out.

We know where the relgious section of the bookstore is. Publishing a book about god is not shoving religion down our throats. Similarly, publishing a book about atheism is not shoving atheism down our throats. No one will die from exposure to opposing points of view.

And science is neither a religion or a lack of religion. Science is just science, so everyone keep their grubby hands off it.

[Voyager]

Originally Posted by Heckxx

Atheists:

Theres no need to try to convince others that their religion/God is false, unless it will benefit them. Religion, regardless of whether God is there, benefits people ethically and emotionally.


Theists:

Theres no need to try to convince non-believers into your religion, unless it will benefit them. Trying too hard to forcibly convince people can have an opposite and detrimental effect.

In both cases, let people decide what will benefit them. They know better than you do. Otherwise, you're like the Boy Scout helping the little old lady across the street - the little old lady who has no desire to cross the street.

[Sapo]

a/theists: don't bomb the other side. Talk all you want, stop after you finished saying what you had to say. Don't try to impose your values on others.

[Der Trihs]

Originally Posted by newcrasher

And stop painting all theists as ignorant homophobe hicks. Sure some are, but bigotry and prickishness does nto discriminate for religiosity.

Many of them are, and yes it does.

Originally Posted by newcrasher

THEISTS:

Stop trying to beat people over the head with your views.

But that's a basic part of many religions; they will never stop.

Originally Posted by newcrasher

Can we agree on this?

Nope.

Originally Posted by Heckxx

Atheists:

Theres no need to try to convince others that their religion/God is false, unless it will benefit them. Religion, regardless of whether God is there, benefits people ethically and emotionally.

You think it does; I don't. I think religion corrupts people morally, and warps people emotionally.

I'll stop ranting about religion when it leaves me the hell alone and stops inflicting such massive evil on the world. If people were to stay at home and clutch their godmadness to themselves like a teddy bear I'd still hold them in contempt, but I wouldn't bother to complain so much about religion; but that's not what they do.

Originally Posted by Voyager

And science is neither a religion or a lack of religion. Science is just science, so everyone keep their grubby hands off it.

No, science by it's nature is corrosive to religion, just as religion by it's nature tries to corrupt science.

And finally, I question whether or not "religious harmony" is desirable.

[According to Pliny]

As usual, the theists are wrong. But I don't know who are all these athists they are so afraid of. When have you heard of an atheist rally or even a tent meeting?
The religious bring them up as straw men to try to rally the troops and dig out more donations.

[Valteron]

Originally Posted by newcrasher

ATHEISTS:

I know you have a lot of reasons not to believe. But stop trying to convince people of faith that they are wrong. And stop painting all theists as ignorant homophobe hicks. Sure some are, but bigotry and prickishness does nto discriminate for religiosity.

THEISTS:

Stop trying to beat people over the head with your views. If your God is so great, you certainly cannot fathom His "will" for yourself, let alone others.

Try this...live your life in such a way that those outside of your specific religiosity will WANT to be a part of it. You may believe you have a "Great Commission" to spread the word, but here is a something you may want to notice; people know about your "religion". Most of those who have chosen to take a pass on it do so because they think checking your intellect at the door and becoming an "Asshat - Admiral Class" is a requirement. So fucking cut it out!

Newcrasher, in another post you are accusing me of farting in the wind? This from the author of the above pile of platitudes?

In your opinion, would theists "beating people over the head with (their) views" include the message "In God we Trust" printed on millions of dollars and other documents in a country that is supposed to separate church and state?

And don't try to respond to my question with the old line that taking it off would be giving unfair advantage to atheists. It would be giving unfair advantage to atheists if the money carried the slogan "God does not exist" instead of "In God we trust."

All we have ever asked is that the state remain silent on religious issues, and leave everyone free to believe as they wish.

The minute we turn our backs on theists they are trying to break down the separation of church and state. Like the "hang ten" movement to hang the ten commandments in court houses and schools.

By the way, how many people here have been bothered by Hare Krishnas, Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses or other theists? Now, how often has an atheist come to your door to bother you?

Try telling a bunch of atheists that they should hijack three jets, and fly them into public buildings and that they will be rewrarded for this massacre of innocents by a magical father figure who will entertain them in heaven with 72 virgins. See how far you get.

I think I know why I am an atheist. I do not mean to be immodest, but I recently took an IQ test and scored below genius but well above average. And just today, I found the following in Wikipedia at this article:

"According to a study by Paul Bell, published in the Mensa Magazine in 2002, there is an inverse correlation between religiosity and intelligence. Analyzing 43 studies carried out since 1927, Bell finds that all but four reported such a connection, and concludes that "the higher one's intelligence or education level, the less one is likely to be religious or hold 'beliefs' of any kind." A survey published in Nature confirms that belief in a personal god or afterlife is at an all time low among the members of the National Academy of Science, only 7.0% of which believed in a personal god as compared to more than 85% of the US general population."

Tell me who your friends are and I'll tell you what you are, Newcrasher!

[Voyager]

Originally Posted by Der Trihs

M

No, science by it's nature is corrosive to religion, just as religion by it's nature tries to corrupt science.

No, only to those religions with a problem adjusting to facts that contradict their original assumptions. The Dalai Lama said that if science and Buddhism are in conflict, Buddhism will have to change. The Catholic Church seems to have accepted evolution, even if they are still dancing around the implications of this. Perhaps in the future, with enough discoveries, all religions will look like Reform Judaism and Unitarianism. If there are any Unitarians fighting against teaching evolution in our schools, you'll have to point them out to me.

Religions can be wrong without being stupid.

[Thudlow Boink]

I see only one problem with the OP:

What makes you think everybody wants religious harmony?

A look at either history or current events tells me that there are way too many people who just don't value peace all that highly.

[newcrasher]

Originally Posted by Valteron

In your opinion, would theists "beating people over the head with (their) views" include the message "In God we Trust" printed on millions of dollars and other documents in a country that is supposed to separate church and state?

Yes. If anyone goes around telling people how much they love God or trust Him or whatever...I get suspicious. Don't tell me about your love/trust for God...show me. and our government fails that test on a daily basis. The governent making any religious statement disenfranchises some and empowers other citizens. It should not be done.

Originally Posted by Valteron

And don't try to respond to my question with the old line that taking it off would be giving unfair advantage to atheists.

OK

Originally Posted by Valteron

It would be giving unfair advantage to atheists if the money carried the slogan "God does not exist" instead of "In God we trust."

I get suspicious of people who spend too much time trying to tell people how much they do not believe in God...so we agree here too!

Originally Posted by Valteron

The minute we turn our backs on theists they are trying to break down the separation of church and state. Like the "hang ten" movement to hang the ten commandments in court houses and schools.

No shit. And you should watch out for people who want to do fucked up things like that. As I have said about people on both sides who waste a lot of time pro- or anti-religion...shut up and get out there and love someone in need. If you can't find someone, I will put you in touch with someone who can. WTF would Jesus want with granite a 10 Commandment marker?

Originally Posted by Valteron

Now, how often has an atheist come to your door to bother you?

I don't ask the spiritual practice of people selling magazine subscriptions, so I can't really answer that...

Originally Posted by Valteron

Try telling a bunch of atheists that they should hijack three jets, and fly them into public buildings and that they will be rewrarded for this massacre of innocents by a magical father figure who will entertain them in heaven with 72 virgins. See how far you get.

By definition the atheists would not believe in the magical father figure to begin with, so the argument is a non-starter. But I get your point.

Originally Posted by Valteron

I think I know why I am an atheist. I do not mean to be immodest, but I recently took an IQ test and scored below genius but well above average.

I scored similarly. Di you take your online?

Originally Posted by Valteron

Tell me who your friends are and I'll tell you what you are, Newcrasher!

OK...my five best friends...

1) Hard atheist who is a computer programmer/sci fi nerd who has not had a date in years

2) Married woman who is a minister to children and organizes community events in our community and in the official "ghetto"

3) Minister of Worship at another large church...has a gay son he loves to death, is my Guinness drinking partner and Celtic brother

4) My brother who is nominally Christian but who has not been to church in years

5) Husband of the above minister to children who is a hard drinking/smoking partier who teaches sunday school to college kids. Athlete and generous with his wealth...

Sooooo...what am I?

[Beaucarnea]

snip

Originally Posted by newcrasher

Sooooo...what am I?

Your identity should be comprised of personality type, habits, hobbies, wants, needs, likes, dislikes, and should not derived soley from religious belief. If you are riding the fence between religion and rejection of superstition, say so. We can't guess who you are based on your choice of companions.

[newcrasher]

Originally Posted by Beaucarnea

snip

Your identity should be comprised of personality type, habits, hobbies, wants, needs, likes, dislikes, and should not derived soley from religious belief. If you are riding the fence between religion and rejection of superstition, say so. We can't guess who you are based on your choice of companions.

Originally Posted by Valteron

Tell me who your friends are and I'll tell you what you are, Newcrasher!

I was reponding to Valteron...

But if I begin riding any fences, I will keep you informed!

[Beaucarnea]

This is why some atheists cannot drop the argument. This article on CNN details an evangelist's attempt to conceal a contribution to the fossil record because it might add evidence to evolution and contradict the Christian record of mankind's ascent.

[DanBlather]

Originally Posted by Beaucarnea

This is why some atheists cannot drop the argument. This article on CNN details an evangelist's attempt to conceal a contribution to the fossil record because it might add evidence to evolution and contradict the Christian record of mankind's ascent.

Against him is one of the planet's best-known fossil hunters, Richard Leakey, whose team unearthed the bones at Nariokotome in West Turkana, in the desolate, far northern reaches of Kenya in 1984.

"Whether the bishop likes it or not, Turkana Boy is a distant relation of his," Leakey, who founded the museum's prehistory department, told The Associated Press. "The bishop is descended from the apes and these fossils tell how he evolved."

Leakey made one mistake, it's clear the Bishop did not evolve.

[Zoe]

There has not been an attack on science by any of the theists in GD recently, has there? Do you see anyone here advocating Creationism? School-sponsored prayer in public schools? Leaving "In God We Trust" on our money?

To listen to some of you, a reader might think that only atheists favor separation of Church and State! It wouldn't surprise me at all to find that most of the science teachers who are working to keep Creationism out of their textbooks and out of their classrooms are theists.

Most Christians are not fundamentalists. Get over it. Open your eyes.

We are members of Amnesty International and the American Civil Liberties Union and other organizations that you also support to protect your/our rights. And we don't want people at our front doors either unless they need help. What's more, we haven't been knocking on your doors!

Why do you want to lump everyone together and give them a label and then assign characteristics to that group which are actually characteristics of only some members of that group?

That has been true all of my life!

1950's: Teenagers! Bad!
1960's: Hippies! Bad! Pacifists! Bad!
1970's: Feminists! Bad!
1980's: Teachers! Bad!
1990's: Depressives! Bad!
2000's: Christians! Bad!

Failure to draw distinctions breeds and perpetuates ignorance. I stopped assuming that atheists were "bad" when I was about ten years old. But I'm perfectly willing to get out my THICK label for those of you who don't understand that there are differences among us.

[Voyager]

Originally Posted by Zoe

There has not been an attack on science by any of the theists in GD recently, has there? Do you see anyone here advocating Creationism? School-sponsored prayer in public schools? Leaving "In God We Trust" on our money?

Exactly who said theists here were the problem? The drive by creationists get their asses handed to them, and go back to their churches and evangelical boards where reason has no place.

To listen to some of you, a reader might think that only atheists favor separation of Church and State! It wouldn't surprise me at all to find that most of the science teachers who are working to keep Creationism out of their textbooks and out of their classrooms are theists.

Well, since 90 - 95% of Americans are, not too surprising. And 100% of the people trying to put evolution in schools are theists.

Most Christians are not fundamentalists. Get over it. Open your eyes.

Barely. here is a cite for 20% evangelical, 20% fundamentalist, 20% liberal, 25% "mainline" (whatever that is) and 10% didn't identify. That's from the half of the church-going Protestants who said a label fit. I wonder how many evangelicals are under cover.

You should open your eyes. These fuckers are organizing, and they hate you only slightly less than they hate me.

1950's: Teenagers! Bad!
1960's: Hippies! Bad! Pacifists! Bad!
1970's: Feminists! Bad!
1980's: Teachers! Bad!
1990's: Depressives! Bad!
2000's: Christians! Bad!

1950s - 2000's - Atheists! Bad!

Does the fact that liberal Christians aren't evil excuse the evil of the fundamentalists one little bit? These people are dangerous, and it seems to me that you're saying it is wrong to be worried about them because you might feel your beliefs are being slighted. Have you signed up for the War against the War Against Christmas while you're at it? You poor downtrodden minority, you.

[Lord Ashtar]

Originally Posted by Der Trihs

No, science by it's nature is corrosive to religion, just as religion by it's nature tries to corrupt science.

I can't speak for everyone, but as I gain a deeper understanding of science my faith grows. Ignorance, on the other hand, is very corrosive to both religion and science.

[Measure for Measure]

This agnostic perceives that the atheist point of view has been argued more aggressively at the SDMB than it used to be. I suspect that Sam Harris, Dennett et al may have stirred the waters a little. As it happens, I am not bothered by these developments so far.

Apparently though, this trend hasn't reached CNN yet. I suspect that it will.

[newcrasher]

Originally Posted by Lord Ashtar

I can't speak for everyone, but as I gain a deeper understanding of science my faith grows. Ignorance, on the other hand, is very corrosive to both religion and science.

Seconded.

[Voyager]

Originally Posted by Lord Ashtar

I can't speak for everyone, but as I gain a deeper understanding of science my faith grows. Ignorance, on the other hand, is very corrosive to both religion and science.

In the early 19th century, the majority of religious leaders were very interested in science, which had practically reached the level of a fad, because they were certain that scientific discoveries would support their view of God and the Bible. A minority, the ancestors of today's evangelicals, were suspicious of expecting secular discoveries to mix with faith. The age of the earth, which contradicted Genesis, was no big issue for the majority, since they felt the important thing was God and man, not how old the Earth was.

This is why Darwin was such a shock. By indicating that man was not special, he cut the legs out from the belief that science would support God. Though some of the majority eventually adapted, in ways we see in the SDMB, the failure of their prediction that science would support the Bible in the places that it mattered discredited them.

As for me, my lack of faith grows with my increased understanding of science and history.