First you started this thread, and that didn’t go well at all for anybody.
Now you started this thread, which is just a different tack on the same subject.
It’s abundantly clear that you’re an atheist. I think by now we all understand that. Why are you unable to accept that some people have found a place for God, even though you have not? Why are you so determined to attempt to demonstrate that believing in God is a detriment?
That’s not an unreasonable assumption on your behalf, but it’s not quite correct. It’s not about bliss, it’s about peace. There are no 72 virgins waiting for us, no Heavenly Bordello, not even a Heaven Lamborghini dealership or Golden Corral, just eternal rest, and the opportunity to intercede on occasion on behalf of the living (if you believe in saints, which I do).
Thinly veiled jabs aside (which that was), there are countless Catholics that have contributed to knowledge in the past. To discount their contributions because they believe in something as quaint as Creationism or a Higher Power is absolutely ridiculous. Attempting to figure out the why of things does not require the dismissal of belief in God.
Neither side has the “advantage”. Assuming that theists and atheists have an equal chance at being correct is the proper stance to take. Trying to pit believers and atheists against each other does everyone a disservice.
Give it a rest. You’re not asking the questions to learn, you’re asking so you can draw people into fights so you can espouse your particular worldview on them, maybe convince them of what you perceive are the fallacy of their beliefs. You don’t believe, great. Wonderful. I and lots of others do (although my faith was shaken a bit this week and I’m still resolving it). Accept it and move on.
If you simply want to pit Lobsang, I have nothing to say about it. I do disagree with some of the rest of it though. Figuring out things does require dismissing the theory that “God did it.” If you are willing to stick with the beliefs dating from a millenia or so ago you already have things explained, you don’t need any “figuring.”
As far as creationism goes, that is a belief that should be dismissed and those that hold it should be viewed with alarm as being somewhat either unbalanced or at the least, very gullible. Creationism has no more or less a leg to stand on than elves, ghosts, healing with crystals, and other woo-woo nonsense that has gone on for millenia and allowed con men to fleece the more gullible of the population.
Testy, you might care to clarify what you mean by “Creationism”. That God created the world and the universe and/or that the earth is only 10,000 years old? Or do you mean something else?
Well like I said. If you just want to hammer on Lobsang then I have nothing to say about it. If, OTOH, you want to claim that the belief in old stories is in some way admirable then I think you’re just wrong. There are much better explanations for natural phenomena than “God did it.”
Alternatively, have I missed your point altogether? Have I been whooshed?
Someone here thinks that a person can’t believe in both science and God?
Since when did God’s existence necessarily imply a creationists view of the universe?
Apparently my description of God and yours are not the same? Perhaps the old “miracles” and “creation” stories were tales and myths by a superstitious and unscientific society based on fiction and/or fact.
There is no doubt however that we can prove nothing either way regarding His existence. Maybe it’d be best if we all just tried to get along. In the end, it doesn’t really matter now does it. You won’t change your mind, nor will I. At least, not because of what we say to one another.
Some folks would argue that love doesn’t exist. It is just a chemical reaction etc. etc. You know what?
like A/D said…“wasted time” if you believe that’s true.
Perhaps I came across to harshly. I don’t hate the religious and some of them can be the nicest of people. It is simply frustrating when we have such a superior way of looking at the universe and discovering things and people still rely on prayer or healing chunks of quartz and the like. One way works, the other way just makes people feel good while they’re dying of whatever.
Admittedly, it’s no skin off my nose what some particular person believes. OTOH, my own personal belief is that fundamentalist religious beliefs are not compatible with rapid scientific advancement. A cite would be the threads in the pit right now about stem-cell research.
And yeah, you’re certainly right that reasoned argument, pleading, or even heated invective is not going to make someone give up their religious beliefs.
My own attitude would boil down to religion being fine as long as people don’t take it seriously.
One saying applies to religion “Each to their own”. I agree with Lobsangs beliefs but I support anyone elses right to their own beliefs.
Just don’t shove your beliefs down my throat (that goes for everyone) or let your beliefs impose on the way anyone else should live.
You won’t eat pork? Cool. But I love bacon.
You don’t believe in abortion? Then don’t have one. I was relieved that I could.
You believe homosexuals should not marry? Then don’t marry one.
I don’t believe in saying grace but I have sat through grace politely because I was in someone elses home.
I covered my head in a Mosque because I chose to visit one and that was the rules.
A couple of years ago the child was having a slumber party. I rang the mother of the child’s best friend to ask if she minded if he watched Harry potter…she did mind so I got a different movie.
It’s all about respect and letting others live how they want to.
Testy I can understand why you would have problems with someone shutting his/her eyes to the scientific evidence before them in preference to an idea that has seems unlikely at best. But to claim the two are mutually exclusive is almost as radical as claiming that science is just wrong.
I realize you probably didn’t mean to make such a sweeping generalization and I wasn’t criticizing you for doing so. I’m just saying that for me (and many others) we have found a way to accept both without resorting to radicalism.
However…religion is a very serious issue for most. Also to say, “one way works”, is true in some cases but not all and definitely NOT for some. When confronting an incurable illness or a tragic accident or many events I could name. It is comforting to feel that your loved one didn’t die in vain. It is comforting to be able to console them that they may see their loved ones in the hereafter. Whether there is any proof or scienctific evidence is irrelevent. Many people need some higher power to believe in, if only because they feel that man can’t possibly be the BEST thing this universe can come up with. regards t/k
Your point would have been well made if not for this sentence.
Atheists have not “not found room for God”, as that supposes that they accept God exists, but don’t have any time for him. Atheists do not believe* there is any such entity, so ‘finding room’ doesn’t even begin to be the issue.
Wording your object in these terms is plainly disingenious and a misrepresentation of the athiest’s position, so it’s hardly going to put the argument to bed, is it?
(* “Believe” here is the operative word. Athiesm is, IMO, as much a religion as any other. This is what makes arguments about it versus any other religion totally pointless and never conclusive.)
No, some ideas you can prove. You can’t prove atheism any more than you can disprove it, so it is entirely dependent on belief. Therefore it is a religion.
If you want to make up your own definition of religion, yeah, sure. I made up my own, too. Belief in supply-side economics is a religion by your definition. You can’t prove it’s a bad idea. Being a Yankees fan is a religion. You can’t objectively prove they’re the best team (more than a won-loss record goes into that kind of a thing). Theism isn’t a religion, it’s just the belief that god exists. You need more than one unprovable idea to make a religion.
If you want to use an accurate definition of religion, atheism is not one any more than theism is. To define it as one is to make the category so broad that it’s useless. What rules does atheism proscribe for living a good life? What are its principles? What beliefs does it put forth about any subject aside from the existence of god? The answer is none. There’s just the one idea. Skipping the strong-vs-weak atheism spiel, it’s not even a belief, it’s the lack of one.
I hope it means being honest, kind, fair and accepting with a dollop of being able to think for ones self. That’s what it means to me. Not because anygod told it to mean that but because that is the way I believe people should act.
OK, let me backtrack a bit and try to better explain where I am coming from lest I seem unreasonably (and unreasoningly) aggressive.
As you’ve probably noticed, I’m in Saudi Arabia right now, a country that is consumed by religion. There is a mosque every few hundred feet in any direction and the stated goal of the ministry for Islamic Affairs is to place a mosque no more than 300 meters from anywhere in the city. Notice I said Ministry of Islamic affairs, an organ of the government. Likewise, my wife and daughter spend a good deal of time avoiding the religious police; an ugly bunch with very short thobes and a foot or more of scraggly beard hanging off their chins. These people have the authority to arrest both citizens and non-citizens, physically chastise women in public for their dress, censor communications, and a host of other annoyingly intrusive powers. Worse, they also have an enormous influence on the curriculum in the public schools and are, by their very nature, extremely conservative. Standard courses include Koranic recitation and Shariia law, at the expense of other, probably more useful, subjects. (This is where the “scientific progress slowing down” in my previous post comes from.
Please don’t think that I’m bashing either Islam or the Arabs. Islam is no more or less likely to spawn fundamentalists than any other religion and the Arabs are as intelligent as any other group of people, no better and no worse. I truly believe both those things and I’m using Islam and the Saudis because I am surrounded by both those things.
My premises are as follows:
A) Any religion spawns zealots and fundamentalists. This seems to be the result of what I call a “holyness competition” among religious people. People compete in this arena like any other and inevitably, some will take it too far.
B) The more popularity a religion gains, the more zealots you will have.
C) Fundamentalists will try to impose their views on others, through coersion if they must but preferably by gaining a degree of secular power so they can enforce their version of public morals using the police and the courts.
To me this makes religion, any religion, a menace to a modern society. Once religious people gain power, they are very difficult to root out and get rid of. Again, this is true of any and all religions and peoples. Europe had it hundreds of years ago and the Islamic world has it in places today. The US has recently had a few issues with religion influencing the law as well, talk to any gay guy.
I understand your point about people needing comfort in dire circumstances. I recently had to grit my teeth and tell my heartbroken wife (a devout Buddhist) that yes, her beloved hound would probably be reincarnated as a person for having been such a good beast during this life. I was probably the worst sort of hypocrit for saying that but did it anyway.
Anyway, in the final analysis I don’t hate religious people, I fear them.* I fear that they will gain power and do again what they have done in the past. The repression and hatred and all the ugly and inhuman atrocities people will commit when they believe God (as interpreted through their local preacher/priest/Immam) has said it is not only OK, but something to be proud of.
Best regards
Testy
P.S. Please believe me when I say that I am not accusing you of any of this and intend no personal attack at all. You and most of the other religious dopers (Poly! Are you listening? ) are some truly decent people.
) are some truly decent people.