(Mods: I don’t know where to put this. It’s not MPSIMS, I’m not sure it goes in the Pit, and I don’t really have a cogent question to debate. Please move where appropriate.)
So Khalid Sheikh Mohemmed, who was arrested in 2003, finally confesses to a string of terrorist plans in 2007. He also says he was tortured by the CIA, but not while he was making this particular confession.
Take a look at that picture right there.
He may very well be guilty, but this article leaves a bad taste in my mouth. They’ve had him in custody for four years, but finally now he confesses? With some CIA assistance, but not now?
I was thinking much the same thing. Despite what he said, I still look at it as a confession given under duress. After four years, I’d think you wouldn’t have to be undergoing physical torture that instant in order to be intimidated.
I wouldn’t really be convinced unless he was able to provide detailed information about the attacks that would be difficult for anyone who wasn’t “in on it” to provide. Since the transcripts of that sort of questioning wouldn’t likely be released to the public, I guess I’ll never know.
(also, that is one hairy dude. I always thought I was pretty hairy, but that picture certainly makes me feel a little better about myself)
I actually just saved the picture in the article on my hard drive, in case it gets changed. Because he looks really wrecked, almost like someone who’d been kidnapped in Iraq or something.
I’d like to think I’m a super-strong person, but I think even my own construct of myself, with intermittent torture, would be willing to confess that I had designs on the Hogfather just to let me get home and not get tortured any more after four years.
I’d really like some non-US Dopers to weigh in on this, to see if the coverage is different (or even present) in their home media.
(And by the Hogfather comment, for the Pratchett-deficient, I meant that I would have admitted to plotting to kill Santa Claus in order to get out of my situation.)
I’m an American, from fairly pro-American stock (mom and dad are both from fairly rural areas). I believe in the ideals of America as put down in the Constitution.
I’m also very liberal in many ways - I’m a member of the pierced-American community, I’m pro-gay marriage, pro-choice (though would be more comfortable if more money were put toward contraception and consciousness-raising of potential young mothers). I believe in leaving people the heck alone.
I’m very uncomfortable with knee-jerk anti-Americanism, just as I’m uncomfortable with knee-jerk anything. Including knee-jerk anti-Islamism.
And this sort of story drives home the anger that I’ve felt toward my government recently.
I read in between the lines that this person had been in custody for four years. And that he felt threatened by the CIA. My government. Those people who are sort of, you know, supposed to uphold the Constitution. I don’t think there’s anything in the document against torture, but, you know, we’ve held ourselves up as an ideal for so long.
And even if this guy is guilty of everything he confessed to, there still might be some sort of virtue in holding off, and being the better person. As in, not forcing someone to confess after years in holding and (possible) torture.
(I know. I’m hopelessly naive. Which is why I didn’t post in GD first.)
Rilchiam it’s a fairly unflattering photo. I’d figure if people make a stink they’ll substitute something to make him prettier. Possibly not, but I figured I’d grab the “booking photo”.
(Also, I’m going to bed now, but please talk amongst yourselves and I will endeavor to respond later.)
That this is an evil man I have no doubt. But if we tortured him (and I’m sure we did) we have descended to his level. It used to be that America represented the moral high ground, an example for others to follow. It makes me sick that we have abandoned our principles with such relish and have adopted the morals of street gangs.
I agree. Under the circumstances I’d consider a confession to anything worthless. Of course he confessed; so would I, and so would anyone reading this. As far as I’m concerned the moment America stooped to torture the value of any claim or confession of it’s prisoners dropped to zero, save the claim of being tortured - we already know we do that.
Mohammed’s confession was read by a member of the U.S. military who is serving as his personal representative.
Words fail me. :rolleyes:
You detain someone illegally, deny him contact with legal advice or family, torture him for years, then have a member of the US military read his confession.
The US must be really crap at torture.
Even crap military dictatorships manage to get the prisoner to confess ‘in person’.
He is an evil man whose confessions are no great surprise and haven’t been news for a long long time. But why is 9-11 being trotted out again and in the middle of March? Is there something that would be on the front page except for this story? For the better part of the past decade, bringing up 9-11 has always been a smoke-screen to hide wrong-doing by this administration.
I’m not sure if this story was leaked now to deflect attention away from Alberto Gonzales, who lied to Congress to cover up the firings of attorney generals for not prosecuting cases partisanly enough, or whether its something else. Still, its getting pretty easy to trace the ink back to the squid.
“If you fucking beat this prick long enough, he’ll tell you he started the goddamn Chicago fire, but that don’t necessarily make it fucking so!”
What I also want to know, what did they have on him to get him in Gitmo in the first place? They must have had a lot of evidence, right? Do heavy suspicions count? And after he was “detained”, was there any gathering of new evidence?
What I’m getting at is, how much was his being charged with conspiracy dependent on his confession? How likely a suspect was he when they brought him in? I know I’ve seen his picture bopping around for a while now, but I don’t remember why they were suspecting him.
Because it seems that we already have quite a bit of info on how the attacks were planned, and Mohammed must have been strongly linked to it to justify detaining an A-Q leader. Now, I can understand detaining him so that you know where he is. But if they didn’t have enough on him to charge him with conspiracy right off the bat, I don’t think they’re within their rights to force a confession from a suspect. Don’t cops get fired for that? If they knew he was the mastermind, they would have been able to take him to court.
That confession is hilarious. He’s confessing to anything and everything. The shoe-bomber dude? That was me. Daniel Perl? all me. 9/11? oh, yeah, I was the mastermind from top to bottom. Can you take the electrodes off my balls now? That’s starting to sting a little.
he spent three years in a secret CIA prison, then he gets transferred to Gitmo where he’s suddenly willing to confess to everything from being Jack the Ripper to being the guy who stole Bruce McCulloch’s bike wheel. Amazing that the White House expects us to swallow this shit but not as amazing as the fact that most Americans probably will.
As far as I’m concerned, all those years in secret CIA custody have tainted the credibility of anything he confesses to. Im not even sure I believe he was in aQ. He could be a cab driver, for all we know.
Why should there be any evidence against anyone in Gitmo?
They are all being kept out of any justice system - far more likely there is no evidence.
Certainly any detainee released back to his country is promptly freed - often due to mistaken identity.
Why would anyone gather evidence? They’re not going to present it to any fair court.
No member of the Bin Laden family was involved in the attacks, because Bush let them fly out soon afterwards. :rolleyes:
The attacks ‘came from Iraq’, because that’s why the US invaded. :rolleyes:
It’s not forcing a confession - it’s using torture.
Nobody gets fired for that in the modern US. :smack:
Yeah, I’m sure it’s all a mistake, and this guy was just minding his baby-milk shop when the big, bad CIA snuck up and kidnapped him.
Personally, I’m disappointed in the sympathy for this man that I’m reading here. I hope I’m just misreading that. No doubt you’ll all tell me I just don’t “get it,” which is a load of bollocks. You can’t be “cool” these days unless you hate America, I know.
I believe he was held here in Thailand for a while shortly after his arrest. U-Tapao Air Base in Chonburi province.
I have sympathy for anyone kidnapped, tortured and kept well away from legal aid or his family.
Treating people like that is how terrorists behave. And now the US does it too.
I think America has an excellent constitution. Shame they don’t use it in Guantanamo Bay.
I think the vast majority of Americans are friendly interesting people (and I hope to meet some when I come to Las Vegas later this year). I have contempt for Bush over his policy in Iraq and in dealing with terrorism.
If you think that saying ‘support our troops’ or ‘why do you hate America’ justifies torture, then you have my contempt too.
Oh, and it won’t stop terrorism either. :rolleyes: