Few questions about joining the Air Force/Navy to become a pilot

Something I have recently started to consider would be to become a fighter pilot or a pilot in the U.S. Air Force or Navy. This is not something I would be jumping into immediately. I currently write embedded software for avionics systems on commercial air liners and would love the opportunity to fly some military aircraft. Here’s my current situation. I just turned 23 and I am working towards my Master’s degree in software engineering. I graduated with a degree in computer engineering with about a 3.9 GPA. I have no flying experience or military training (ROTC, etc) at all. I have about 3.5 years owed to my company (after I complete my Masters degree I will owe a year to them) so I could at earliest begin at 26.5. I saw on the Air Force website that I would have to start by the time I was 28 or 28.5 so this should leave me time.

To be frank if I couldn’t fly I really have no incentive to join as I am getting paid well in the private sector. Although I don’t know what kind of benefits the military would provide by comparison. I am assuming worse.

Basically, to anyone who has any experience, what are the odds that someone like me could become a pilot? Would I be at a distinct disadvantage due to my age? Would the engineering degree and avionics experience help? What about since I didn’t attend one of the military academies or ROTC? I am not particularly great at any standardized tests they would give me, but I have above average intelligence. I got a good GPA by busting my ass not because I am a genius. I should mention that my eyes aren’t the greatest (contacts are like -1.75 but I am not sure what vision number that translates to (20/20, etc)) I don’t know if it would be an issue, but I am on the larger size at 6’2 and 215 lbs. Would they give preference to smaller people or does it matter? I have also had several concussions from sports injuries. I don’t know if that would be an issue with all the blacking out they do during particular maneuvers, but I figured I would mention it anyway. Otherwise I would consider myself to be pretty fit.

Also besides the pilot training, would I be expected to undergo more engineering schooling?

Thanks so much for the help guys! I realize a lot of this might be able to be answered by a recruiter, but I really don’t want them to have my name yet since I am so far away from jumping on anything, and I have heard they aren’t almost the most truthful people. Any websites or forums relating to this would be great also!

A friend of mine wanted to be a pilot but was flat out rejected because of his eyesight. Now in the days of laser surgery, that might not be a deal killer, but you should definitely ask ahead of time and be prepared to have surgery. You might also ask about the height requirements.

Another friend also joined the USAF to be a pilot. He finally made it into flight training a few months shy of the cut off date, however, he only made it half way. He couldn’t pass the test on one particular model so he was booted out of flight training. He’s an engineer of some sort now. Another friend entered as an officer as he was an engineer when he graduated from college, and immediately learned to become a pilot. He flew a lot of missions during the Gulf War but is now a flight instructor.

Wish I could give you something better than anecdotal evidence, and hopefully someone with real knowledge of the issue will chime in with some encouraging and positive comments to counterbalance my rain on your parade.

Anyway…

When I was in the Navy (20 years ago), I remember talking with the guys about how one gets into Naval Aviation. The basic problem was this: there are a gazillion sharp young guys who want to be fighter pilots, so the Navy has the ability to be extremely selective. At the time, it seemed that if one wasn’t a perfect physical specimen (e.g. perfect eyesight), they had a dozen other guys who were perfect to choose from, so they would pass on the fellow.

I remember a similar thing going on in boot camp with folks who wanted to become SEALs. There were 86 guys in our company, and half of them went to take the SEAL test – really strong strapping dudes – and none of them passed. The bar is set so high because they never have a lack of applicants.

I don’t know about the Air Force, but the Navy will not accept you for flight training as a pilot if you don’t have 20/20 vision. Laser surgery may or may not give you that - it’s not a guarantee. They may accept you as a flight officer (such as a Radar Intercept Officer) with less than perfect vision, though.

The first thing you’d have to do is see a recruiter, who would give you the Aviation Selection Test Battery (ASTB) and if you passed that, you’d be scheduled for a physical.

If you were accepted, you’d go to Officer Candidate School since you did not go to a military academy. They would give you general prep training you would need - it’s basically boot camp for officers. The aviation candidates attend OCS in Pensacola, FL. After that, you go to Aviation Pre Indoctrination or Advanced Pilot Indoctrination (API), which is also in Pensacola. Only after that do you being actual flight training. I’m sure your educational background will help, though anyone who is willing to work hard can complete the coursework successfully - my husband went to OCS and completed flight officer training just fine and he was an English major.

Keep in mind, though, that you don’t get a lot of choice of what planes you will fly. That depends on the needs of the Navy at the time and your flight grades - those with the best grades and overall evaluations get to pick first. You may get to fly a fighter, or you may be relegated to a P-3, or cargo aircraft or even helicopters.

You will also be required to commit to the military for a certain amount of time, since pilot training costs a lot of money. Back in the day when my husband was a RIO, the commitment was 7 years. I don’t know if that is still the same or not.

I can only speak a little from up here is Canada and it’s anecdotal -

A friend of mine was in pilot training. He messed up on a landing (test) a week befre grad. He still landed cleanly and everything, just made a mistake on a (necessary) procedure.

He was booted. That’s it.

Another option (if this doesn’t work out) is a navigator/flight engineer. You’ll still go up but it won’t be as a pilot.

Good luck.

You can’t tell them that you have had a concussion!

In the Air Force, Navs are officers, but flight engineers are enlisted folk. And with FEs, you have to cross train into that job, they don’t let new recruits do it fresh out of basic. They used to for helicopters but the wash out rate was so high that they stopped that program (I lost a lot of good friends [emotear]).

Wow, great information guys. Honestly it doesn’t sound like I would be a great candidate with the bad vision and the number of concussions (about 8). I wouldn’t want to lie about that and have myself or others killed because of my selfishness. Good information for me to think about, but sounds like it would be really risky when I could sit pretty comfortably in the private sector. Anyway, thanks for all the help guys!

I’m a former USAF fighter pilot.

The physical standards (and age standards) change from year to year. The current standards are published; if you can’t find them online at af.mil any recruiter will be glad to do so for you. You either meet the criteria or you don’t; waivers for folks not already a year or more into the Academy (read folks on whom USAF has already spent a boatload of money) are simply not given, period, amen.

So step one is to learn what the standards are & see if you think you meet the current specifications. If so, the next hurdle you’ll have to pass are a series of extensive interviews, tests & medical exams to ensure you really have the physical, educational & mental capabilities & parameters you say you do. The odds on sneaking something past them are about zero.
The service’s demand for new pilots changes from year to year. Some years when demand is very low the Academy produces enough grads to use up all the training slots.

ROTC is the second source for pilots. In years with typical demand the Academy + ROTC use up 80-90% of the available slots.

OTS graduates fill the remaining pilot slots. In years where pilot demand is high, OTS may represent 30-50% of all slots, but 10-15% is more typical and some years there are zero OTS pilot slots. Given that you’re already out of college, OTS is the only route for you becoming a USAF Officer. So the next (3rd) hurdle is to find out if there are OTS slots being given for pilots these days.

If so, time for the fourth & fifth hurdles: You will compete for the right to get into OTS & separately for the right to a pilot slot. This is based on testing, grades, resume, interviews, etc. USAF simply puts everybody in a pool, rank orders them by quality & takes the top however-many they need. The rest get a “No thanks, but thanks for playing” letter. Rejectees have spent their one and only shot at it.

Flying experience has ZERO impact on this, other than perhaps being able to score a smidgen better on some parts of the aptitude tests since you’d already be a little familiar with the subject matter. Your lack here is not material. Former enlisted folks (i.e. those with some military training) get a couple extra points, but again not a decisive amount. So your lack here is probably not material unless you are a borderline candidate anyhow.

You will know whether you get the pilot slot prior to becoming committed to joining the USAF. So you have nothing much to lose by trying. The process takes a couple of months & is usually worked 3 to 9 months out in the future, so applicants becoming obligated to OTS this week probably got serious with their recruiter in February & will probably be beginning OTS in Dec 2007 or Jan 2008.

Assuming you are accepted, it’s time for hurdle 6: Once you enter OTS you are committed to serve. If you flunk out of OTS or quit, expect to spend the next 2-5 years as an enlisted man. Again the rules change from year to year, so the numbers I recall from my time are probably wrong today, but the idea is basically correct.

Once you graduate OTS (a three month school) you are an Officer, a 2nd Lieutenant to be precise. Time for hurdle 7: You then go to pilot training. if you flunk out or quit pilot training you will serve the USAF as an Officer in a non-pilot job for 3-5 years.

At about 4 months into the 1-year pilot training program comes hurdle 8: the class will be split into two groups: the top ~1/3rd and the others. The top group (size varies from 15-35% depending on USAF’s needs du jour) go on to training for high performance jets; fighters, attack, reconnaisance, & trainers. The rest go on to train for flying transports, tankers, and bombers.

Whichever way you go, the next (9th) hurdle is the second segment of pilot training. Pass that & you get your wings, an accomplishment that will make you think your undergraduate college & Masters work was kid stuff. Mine sure felt that way.

Now it’s time for hurdle 10: Learning to fly your new mission. For fighter and attack, we’re talking two more schools (hurdles 10 & 11) totalling another 1.5 years-ish, while for slow-movers it’s just one school of 8-11 months. Failures at this level are comparatively rare, just a few percent, but quite disgraceful.

There are also two survival schools and a couple of other dogs & cats thrown in to further round out your life.
Pass all that and you too can join the tens of thousands of men and women who’ve flown fast jets for the USAF. I’ve met a lot of those folks, Hell, I are one! (well, was one nowadays) and we’re not that special. But we are a pretty finely filtered group compared to the public at large.

And assuming you do pass all those hurdles, you’re now obligated to work for Uncle Sam, living where told & killing bad guys on command for something on the order of 7 to, more realistically, 11 additional years. Oh yeah, bad guys shoot back from time to time.
Rewinding back to the beginning, …

Of all the folks who take the initial recruiting physical, the attrition rate to becoming a fighter / attack pilot is about 99 out of 100. Backing up a step, of all the folks who get up the nerve to visit the recruiter to learn the baseline standards & whether they fill all the squares, the attrition rate is more like 499 out of 500. Of all those who start OTS as pilot candidates and are committed to serve, about 8% become fighter / attack pilots, another 50% become pilots of some sort, and the remaining 40-ish% fail or quit training at some stage.
Good luck. It’s a fine way of life in the company of many fine people, a decade-plus adventure not for the weak nor the faint.

LSLGuy, Captain, USAF
Inactive Reserve

p.s. My brother flew fast attack for the Navy. All the terminology is utterly different, the details vary, but the overall process is substantially the same for USN as for USAF. There is no material difference in the objective standards, physical, IQ, etc., of the two services. Their respective candidate supply vs pilot demand situations vary from year to year and sometimes the odds are more in your favor one place than the other.

Okay, so to clarify the relevant points for me again:
Of the candidates that make an actual commitment to the USAF or Navy by entering OTS, 58% do get to become a pilot of some sort?

The 40% that fail spend two years as enlisted men if they drop out of OTS and the others spend three years as some other type of officer?

What’s the break-down between people that fail OTS and flight school?

What causes people to fail out of OTS?

Granted, I’m sure OTS is hard, but for a person of excellent intelligence, good motivation, emotionally stable, and pretty good physical shape now, it isn’t that bad is it?

LSLGuy That’s great information. Thank you for taking the time to post that.

High risk, big reward. Isn’t that life? :smiley:

You should start by taking flight lessons. You might realize you don’t like flying!

When I started flying gliders, I would come down with massive headaches. They eventually stopped bothering me, but it became very clear to me that I would never go into aerobatics, which was my original interest.

Find a local flight school and pay for an intro class, it shouldn’t cost you more than $80 or so. At least you will know if it is really something you want to direct your life choices.

ETA: If you make good friends at the airport, you could ask someone to take you for a spin on a high performance plane and do some stunts. That would really give you a better idea if you are up to it.

And if you somehow do become a pilot, stay away from helicopters. Those things are death traps.

Go in the Air Force instead of the Navy, unless you think it wouldn’t be so tough (or damn terrifying) to be in the middle of the ocean during a storm at night with your fuel low looking for a rocking speck (ship) to land on.

Also, according to the movie “Little Miss Sunshine”, make sure you aren’t color blind. I’m sure there are tests on the web you can find.

Others will be able to say if that is a myth, or a true disqualifying factor.

What can I say. Everything important I learn through movies. :slight_smile:

J.

I can tell you from personal experience color blindness is a no go. You might as well be blind. I wanted to fly helicopters for the Army. I had 20/15 vision passed all the other physical stuff but when I couldn’t pick the number out of the circle of dots I was asked to consider another field. I ended up in the field artillery.

Actually it’s red/green color blindness that will kill you. If you can’t pick the number or letters or whatever is in those circles of dots the give you the Falant test. This is a series of red, green and white LED’s. You have to tell them what color the lights are. I’m seriously color blind and failed even this test miserably.

I was nearly as disheartened as the kid Little Miss Sunshine. The recruiter who had driven me to test took me for beers at the NCO club.

You’re right, OTS isn’t that difficult for a recent college grad. Essentially 3 months of cramming for college finals plus a lot of team sports & exercise.

I’m NOT an expert on OTS attrition, but it’s probably 5% or so, mostly people who discover they just don’t have the drive to push themselves hard enough, or discover the military just isn’t what they thought it was so they look for an escape. So in a sense I’d say more people drop out than flunk out for lack of raw ability.

I could see that for somebody who was 27, a little out of shape and hadn’t been in a learning job for their last 5 years since college would have their hands full. Remembering how to be in school, study every night, read a lot & remember it, and also exercise vigorously a couple hours a day might add up to more change & stress than they could absorb.

Add to that the routine harrassment, silly rules, weird hours, marching here & there, and all the other “artificial stress” poured on trainees & some folks will just say “to Hell with it; I could do this, but I don’t want to.” Well, maybe they could and maybe they couldn’t, but once they decide they won’t, neither they nor we will ever know for sure.

Nevertheless somebody who goes cold on the whole military idea would truly be a lot better off to gut it out & graduate as an officer than to quit/flunk and end up on the enlisted side of the lifestyle divide. Life in training is a lot different from day-to-day life on active duty, and active duty for a junior officer is a lot more pleasant and civilian-compatible than life for a junior enlisted person.
Turning to pilot training:

For round numbers, of those who show up on day 1 of pilot training, 1/3rd to 40% will not graduate. A few losses are medical, with inability to overcome airsickness under high stress a significant fraction of those. A few more fail the academics. The majority (80% of losses) are simple failures to learn to fly well enough quick enough.

The pace is very fast & the process is pretty merciless; either keep up or fail. There are pretty continuous losses almost from the start, although there are a few distinct gates along the way where significant new material is introduced & the learning curve gets especially steep. Folks either digest it or are culled.

Probably 1/3rd of those who fail could be taught to fly at least transport jets if the service was willing to spend 2x as much time bringing along the slower learners. The other 2/3rds have no business in the air.

Finally, after a pilot graduates from pilot training & gets their wings they go on to school to learn to fly fighters, bombers, whatever. A few % more are culled there, more from the fighter ranks than the transport ranks. Their fate depends on the circumstances; some would-be fighter pilots end up driving transports. Others end up driving desks.
Bottom line: the lion’s share of attrition is inability to learn to fly jets quickly enough, or at all. The other causes are individually minor, but still add up.
Aside: Having to attrit folks out late in the training process is very expensive & the service would prefer not to have to do it. There have been many experiments from the 1950s through today trying to develop cheaper screening tools. Unfortunately, none of them work.

They’ve tried having people get private pilot’s licenses in Cessnas first; no help. They’ve tried simulators; no help. I imagine eventually they’ll get better at predicting success, but frankly a lot of one’s success is simply one’s ability & inclination to mentally sprint for 2+ years straight under heavy stress. Nothing I can think of can pre-test for mental stamina & deep desire like that.

Here is a message board for military flight training.
http://www.airwarriors.com/forum/

I took a look online & this http://www.wantscheck.com/ seems to be a site dedicated to folks trying to get into USAF pilot training. I can’t vouch for their info, but it looks reasonable & will certainly be more current info than mine. They can probably tell you everything about everything.

They have a medical standards outline posted at www.wantscheck.com/PilotSlotResources/MedicalTips/tabid/68/Default.aspx

The no-kidding USAF manual is available at http://www.e-publishing.af.mil/pubfiles/af/48/afi48-123v3/afi48-123v3.pdf .

Since you’re not versed in USAF-ese, I’ll tell you the part to read is Attachment 4 (pages 36 to 71) and the physical you’re trying to pass is called “Flying Class I”. Fill all those squares & you’re good to go. Miss one and you’re finished. Any discussion in the verbiage about waivers almost certainly does not apply to you.

There are another raft of physical standards in another book required to get into the USAF at all, but it’s a safe bet all those standards are lower than the pilot ones.

LSLGuy, again, thank you.

You’re informative no-nonsense approach to the topic has been incredibly helpful. I’ve considered the idea before, but there’s literally so much bullshit on the internet about the topic that it’s almost impossible to discern the reality of how pilots are selected.

I think that eyesight will disqualify me, but I’m still considering the non-laser eye surgeries available.