Many recent threads about religious topics have been high on vitriol and, in my opinion, low on content. I wish to attempt to bring the board back to its stated purpose of increasing wisdom and understanding. A few weeks ago we had a thread about challenging one’s beliefs by seeking out opposing viewpoints. With that in mind, I propose the following.
I will read one book, chosen by one of this board’s atheist or agnostic members, which argues against the existence of God, or in favor of some secular viewpoint. In return, whoever chose the book must read one book, selected by me, which argues for a Christian viewpoint. After a suitable period of time in which to read the books, we will start two threads for discussing them in depth. Obviously anyone who wants to can join either discussion from either side.
The only rules are:
There are to be no insults or sneering remarks.
Only participate if you are honestly willing to read the books.
I doubt that anyone will change their minds… but i’m game. I haven’t really read any pro-atheist books, though, but i’m sure there are others who can suggest one. I’m prepared to read a book of your choice.
I can’t promise to participate, but I think this is an wonderful, exciting idea. I’m an atheist, but I went through a strong theist phase and studied a lot of theology hoping for something that would appeal to my rationality. I strongly recommend In Face of Mystery by Gordon Kaufman as a book for atheists to read. It wasn’t quite enough to keep me in the theist camp, but it came much, much closer than anything else, and helped me to understand my own theistic impulses (which you needn’t share to appreciate the book). I don’t expect any book to convert someone to the other side, but for understanding how theism can be rational and positive, I don’t think there is a better guide.
I should note, that this is not a book of apologetics. It is a Christian theology book written for theologians (though very accessibly), but unlike many theologians, Kaufman refuses to take for granted the assumption that God exists and Christ is divine. Instead he builds his theology from the ground up, beginning with a sophisticated understanding of the secular, scientific beliefs all rational people hold in common, and then seeing whether the concepts of “God” and “Christ” have anything to say in such a context. His answer won’t satisfy some evangelicals (nor hardcore atheists), but it is surprising and sophisticated and ultimately very Christian without being dogmatic.
I don’t promise to debate, though. If the book on atheism actually changes my faith, I will mention it in the thread. I’m thinking the other book is probably not the Bible.
Well, I’m willing to read The God Delusion–I was planning to anyway but hadn’t gotten round to it yet (and I’m pretty familiar with the content anyhow, so I wasn’t in a hurry). My reading tends to be decided by what I run into at the library while I’m working. I’m working tomorrow, so I’ll see if there’s a copy.
But don’t you guys already read books for ‘the other side?’
I haven’t got a theist book to recommend unless anyone specifically wants to get into LDS thinking. I’ve read plenty of mainstream Christian books, but I’m not totally familiar with everything out there. I presume y’all have already read the Bible, or something like C. S. Lewis anyway. That book The language of God was OK at illustrating how an eminent scientist can also be religious, but it wasn’t my favorite book ever and it repeated Lewis a lot.
Could we maybe do The demon-haunted world or something instead of Dawkins? He’s good at evolution, but on religion he rants and raves an awful lot, and I don’t personally think he really understands much about it. I find him much more irritating than interesting. Sagan is interesting…
Has anyone read both The God Delusion * and The Demon-Haunted World*? I’ve only read the former, which I found pretty good. We need to decide on one or the other of them; it would be helpful if some of you have read both and can make a recommendation.
And you theists need to get your acts together and decide on a book, too! A lot of us are probably gonna have to order over the internet, so it might take several days before any of us can get started.
BTW, ITR champion, great thread(s) idea; kudos to you.
In his OP, ITR champion proposed to select the book which argues for the Christian point of view. I don’t know whether he already has one in mind or is looking for suggestions.
My choice for the atheists’ reading assignment would be The Abolition of Man, by C. S. Lewis. It a nice, straightforward book, only eighty pages long, and the text is available online for those who can’t find a copy. And I’ll be happy to read The God Delusion as soon as I can. If we get some successful discussion going we could certainly repeat the process with other books.
I would suggest that everyone involved should read both books. Even if you’ve read one or both before, rereading can’t hurt. For each book, whoever finishes first can begin the discussion thread and others will join in when they’re ready.
This was all your idea, so it’s up to you, but if it were up to me, I’d set a “Do not start discussing before…” date for at least a week or two from now. Otherwise, some people may have a huge head start on the discussion over others.
I agree. Especially for people who don’t have a Borders or other big bookstore nearby, and have to order the book online; it will take them a few days to get it, and then a few days (at least) to read the two books.
I’m definitely up for reading “The God Delusion” and in return, I think possibly one of Marcus Borg’s books, such as “The God We Never Knew” and/or “The Heart of Christianity”.
Note that while Marcus Borg’s books have been embraced by mostly progressive and mainline Protestants, Christians with more conservative viewpoints may find lots to disagree with as well. It might be nice, however, for an atheist or agnostic who has only heard the conservative viewpoint find out more about what exactly it is that mainline Christians believe.
I think **ITR champion ** is Thread God, and dictates reading for the just and the unjust alike. I’ll have to see if I can dig out my copy of The God Delusion–we just moved, and it’s in some damn box.
I finished the book, and I’m curious about this as well, though I suppose that the answer will have to wait until we start the thread.
I am a bit concerned that the books offered so far do not contain the proper response to The Abolition of Man. I have not read either The God Delusion or The End of Faith, but I have seen talks by both Dawkins and Harris, and they seem to spend a lot of time discussing the harm that religion has caused, the problems when fundamentalism takes aim at science, and pro-theism arguments from design or the ontological argument. Given the crowd we have here, I don’t think these points really need to be addressed. If my impression of the books is wrong, someone please feel free to correct me.
I would offer for discussion one of two books by Daniel Dennett: Darwin’s Dangerous Idea or Freedom Evolves. Neither of these books is nearly as short as The Abolition of Man, the former weighs in at 521 pages while the latter is a slimmer 309, and both have long discussions that are at best tangential to the topic at hand. Like The Abolition of Man, neither book is really aimed toward converting people to atheism. But both books cover the same (or very similar) points that The Abolition of Man covers, but over an explicitly atheist backdrop. I would suspect that Freedom Evolves might be a better book for this discussion.