Theists, agnostics, beleivers: Have you attempted to read a book by Richard Dawkins?

Inspired by Atheists, agnostics, & non-believers: do you enjoy reading any part of the Bible?.
When I read RD I find myself thoroughly enthralled by what I’m reading. If it’s possible I become even more sure of the non-existence of a God than I already am.

But I can’t help feeling sorry for RD a bit. He’s putting all this effort into convincing the reader of the lack of a God (or in the case of the book I’m currently reading - the evidence for evolution) and yet the audience he hopes to target simply isn’t reading the book. I would put money on the vast majority of RD readers already being Atheists and Evolution-beleivers.

I can quite beleive that a large proportion of Theists/Beleiver (and to a lesser extent - Agnostics) would actually be frightened to read one of the books, for fear of ‘betraying’ their religiousness and their God. I could have that completely wrong though. How would I know. I’ve never, in my adult life, been anything other than an Atheist.
Also. Richard often fails to restrain the mocking tone in a lot of places throughout his books. I personally find it extremely difficult to keep reading something if it says bad things about Atheism and Atheists. So I would imagine the same is true for Theists and Agnostics.

I am also a little bit afraid to ask this question. I might not like some of the replies it might attract. I am a huge fan of RD and to hear people being nasty about/towards him might not be easy to stomach.

But I’m letting my curiosity win over my timidity.
Atheists can answer if you like.
P.s. What I’m currently reading is “The Greatest Show on Earth” It is truly fascinating, and for the most part RD succesfully avoids any God-bashing and tries to focus directly on the subject of evolution itself. In some parts he even uses language that suggests he’s conceding/assuming (for the sake of the text/argument) that there is a God.

No, but then I’m a quasi-Catholic who has no issues with evolution. So, beyond trying to convince me that God doesn’t exist, I don’t see much reason to bother with them.

Didn’t we just DO this one?

Damn search engine… well it may not have had “Dawkins” in the thread title but the question itself was nearly verbatim.

Well OK not quite but the ground was covered at any rate.

I’ve read lots of works by atheists making the case against God, but I have to admit that I’ve never read anything by Dawkins.

I hardly think that’s verbatim. This thread we’re in now, takes one of the questions in that thread, and makes it a main thread subject. I am inviting people to talk about it. Not just to say “Yep. I’ve read a Dawkins book”.

I tried to read Dawkins but couldn’t get through it because IMO he could not be even minimally respectful. I think people who are intentionally insulting must know their opponents are just going to walk away, as most people would when insulted. So to me his books are written for other hard-line atheists and he’s basically preaching to the choir, which is one step up from talking to hear the sound of your own voice.

It’s a shame, because I think if he was less abrasive towards the people who’s mindsets he wishes to alter he might be more successful, and might sell more books.

And I think people are missing out on those bits where he manages to explain very complicated concepts using language that a layman can understand. I am willing to bet there are very few Zoologists/Evolutionary Biologists who could make… me (for instance) understand Evolution in as much detail as I am able to by reading RD books.

And Religion for that matter. I don’t think I’d understand religion anywhere near as much as I do had I not read the RD books that I have.

I’d have to say what I’ve said before: he has a notion of theists and theistic thought that accurately describes someone else but misses the mark considerably for me. I share some of his opinions, actually, but do not derive the same conclusions overall. I do not appear to be his target audience.

I’m certain that’s true, but I strongly suspect he doesn’t really want to alter anyone’s mindset.

Moving thread from IMHO to Great Debates.

Is the Bible respectful of those who do not believe?

I think the point is - not being respectful doesn’t help your cause. It doesn’t help the cause of theists. And equally it doesn’t seem to help the cause of Atheists.

If one does not have respect for a book, should one fake it in order to appease others?

I’m not sure what your point is but, No.

I don’t think I’m asking anyone to pretend to like RD. Nor have I ever pretended to like the Bible. At worst I am apathetic about the Bible. I don’t have any desire to read it. (I honestly do imagine it to be similar to the LoTR trilogy - which I have read in full, and found to be very tedious and difficult to get to the end) It was the opposite thread that inspired my curiosity. I have while reading RD wondered if there are ANY Theists reading this book, and have then wondered what they make of it, and if they are strong-willed enough to see past/through the lampooning and enjoy the rest of the book(s), the bits containing the science and the information.

I’ve not read him yet - keep meaning to. Unweaving the Rainbow is one I’d like to pick up - the idea that scientific understanding increases wonder, awe and artistry in the natural world really resonates with me.
I’m not interested in atheism v religion, evolution v creationism etc at all, seems like a sideshow to me but I guess that’s what shifts units off the shelves. As a scientist I’d be more interested in reading his thoughts on science on it’s own terms, rather than some US-centric tard fight about the validity of evolution / atheism.

I’ve read the Selfish Gene, the Extended Phenotype, the Blind watchmaker, River out of Eden some of Climbing Mount Improbable – not sure I completed the last one. Might be one of the few books started on that I didn’t finish. He was refreshing and had some bite in the Selfish Gene & the Blind watchmaker, but on the whole he seemed to be repeating the same arguments over and over again in the various books so that it became rather tedious after a while. I also find his anti-anything-not-science tirades rather tedious.

Respect has nothing to do with it. I fuck respect and piss down its throat.

Yeah, but he breaks down his view on this. In the God Delusion, he breaks down why he thinks it is important to take away the ‘sheild of respect’ (my phrase, not his) that religion has enjoyed.

There is indeed a group of people that exists that need ‘baptism by fire’. I was one of those people.

When I was younger, a group called the Nation of Gods and Earths taught me that ‘the black man is God’. This, they taught to a christian that not only believed in the god in the clouds, but also actually pictured a white god at that!!

It was much later that I came to an understanding of what I really did and did not believe, but to this day I am grateful to the Nation of Gods and Earths, because they SHOCKED me out of my dedication to christianity. Many that studied their lessons, my husband included, was instrumental in making me see how they were really useful in freeing someone’s mind by shocking them in the opposite direction.

When some people are shocked to hear someone speak ‘disrespectfully’ about the oh-so-sacred religion of Christianity, they may just feel it is okay to think about that religion being wrong. Or fucking nuts.

Because, if someone believes that believing in God is delusional, why should they treat believers any differently than they would someone that talked about their imaginary friend? We wouldn’t argue that someone with an imaginary friend deserves all kinds of sacred respect.

I admit though, that I am a Dawkins groupie. In my house, we sit around watching him on youtube like a bunch of slackjawed fans.

I read The God Delusion for the sake of a discussion on this very board. I found it terrible. Dawkins may be slightly better read and more polite than outright hatemongers like Sam Harris and Christopher Hitchens, but that’s like saying that someone is more competent than Dubya–in other words, not very impressive. It’s hard to decide where to begin on explaining the flaws in that book, but the most obvious one is simply how much of what he says is outright false. He repeats as many urban legends as Ann Landers. A quote by James Watt claiming that we can ignore the environment because the Rapture will be coming soon is in there. Two minutes of research would show that the quote is bogus. A story about a British mob who attacked a pediatrician after confusing the word with “pedophile” is in there. That’s another urban legend. One might, of course, insist that those are minor issues, but Dawkins is just as wrong on the major issues. In wrapping up his main case that God doesn’t exist because it’s extremely improbable that God would come into being, he insists that certain physicists including Polkinghorne and Davies have never addressed this issue. Actually both have addressed this issue at great length and so have thousands of the other people, all of whom Dawkins deals with by ignoring them. Other errors I’ve started threads on. There’s the section where he disproves the arguments of Thomas Aquinas by making up quotes of his own invention that Aquinas never wrote and then shooting them down. There’s his bizarre claim about Martin Luther King’s nonviolence tactics being based on Gandhi’s teachings rather than those of Jesus, which King’s words flatly contradict. There are the Bible passages that Dawkins rips out of context in order to flatly misrepresent. There’s his utterly false claim that the four gospels were selected “arbitrarily” from among many. And there’s… well, suffice to say, there’s a lot more falsehoods, so many that multiple books have been written exposing them. Of course, whenever I point these out in GD, someone insists that me might not be lying, and that it might be honest mistakes on his part. If so, then his research standards are appalling low, but the point that the book is completely unreliable remains the same.

But even if I could ignore the majority of the book composed of glaring falsehoods, I would still find it a remarkably bad piece of rhetoric. The claims that Dawkins makes, particularly regarding evolution, are obviously completely bosh. Chapter 5 is chock full of pseudoscience, from the oft-debunked claim that temporal lobe epilepsy causes religion experiences to group selection–the later he admits can’t be supported. In fact, the whole chapter has remarkably few references, especially when considering the scope of the claims he’s making. His central hypothesis that “natural selection builds child brains with a tendency to believe whatever their parents and elders tell them” gets a grand total of zero citation, for the obvious reason that it’s not true. (I’m a teacher, so I know.) While he acknowledges that there’s no certainty behind that hypothesis, I’m basically asked to accept that religion is adaptative on Dawkins’ say-so, which would be problematic even if he were more truthful.

And then there’s the infamous chapter 9, which I hesitate to mention since even Dawkins defenders generally won’t defend it. He says that religious parents should not be allowed to raise their own children. (He also chastises the Catholic Church for once removing a child from his parents. Blatant hypocrisy seems to come standard here.) That might be the one part of the book is useful. I had known previously that some atheist groups often wanted to impose their will on minor issues, such as having a cross in a park, but without reading The God Delusion I would never have known that world’s leading atheist has such total hatred for the most fundamental human rights.

Other then that, the book’s main effect on me was to further convince me that Dawkins’ beliefs are untenable, and thus it did a great deal to help build my faith in the correctness of Christian doctrine.

Wow.

Well, to me the effect was to build my faith in the correctness of the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

:slight_smile:

Just because there is some justification in jumping away from some atheistic tract, it does not follow that then we should make even more leaps to an **specific **way to deal with he/she/it