Physicists Phreak Out. Pioneer Probes SLOWING DOWN! Newslink

[Bosda Di'Chi of Tricor]

The laws of Physics seem to be wrong.

http://planetary.org/programs/projects/pioneer_anomaly/

Something strange is happening in the outer reaches of our solar system. The Pioneer 10 and 11 spacecraft are not where they are supposed to be. These missions, launched in 1972 and 1973, have covered hundreds of millions of kilometers, heading toward the edge of our solar system. But something is holding them back. Each year, they fall behind in their projected travel by about 5,000 kilometers (3,000 miles).

Jet Propulsion Laboratory scientist John Anderson and his colleagues have been searching for an explanation since 1980. But as of yet, they have found nothing conclusive; no spacecraft behavior or previously unknown property of the outer solar system can explain the deceleration of the Pioneer spacecraft. Scientists are being forced to consider the unthinkable: something may be wrong with our understanding of the laws of physics. An important line of inquiry will be to study mounds of Doppler (velocity) data and spacecraft status data (like temperatures) that have been unavailable to researchers—but that is about to change.

OO-Kaaaaayyyy....

[Squink]

Originally Posted by Bosda Di'Chi of Tricor

OO-Kaaaaayyyy....

Just be glad it's a "Pioneer Anomaly" rather than a "Deimos Anomaly." The latter could doom us all!

[Really Not All That Bright]

They probably just realized they left the bathwater running or something.

[Sunspace]

It's little anomalies like this that often lead to new laws of physics or the extension of the old ones into new realms. Maybe we can get flying cars or a new power source out of this...

[silenus]

See? You can't just write off FTL and the like because it doesn't fit the laws of physics. Physics doesn't fit the laws of physics!

[Mangetout]

They're getting bogged down in the first few, softish layers of the sky dome. Wait until they hit the hard bit...

[beowulff]

Just wait until they hit the energy barrier at the edge of the Solar System...

[Shodan]

Obviously being pelted with cosmic rays. When it gets back, it wil be filled with people who can stretch incredible distances, turn invisible, burst into flame, and are surly, powerful, and covered with pottery shards.

Regards,
Shodan

[Skald the Rhymer]

Originally Posted by Bosda Di'Chi of Tricor

The laws of Physics seem to be wrong.

http://planetary.org/programs/projects/pioneer_anomaly/



OO-Kaaaaayyyy....

:: lights cigarette, takes long drag, & exhales while stroking long-haird cat ::

For the record, I have nothing to do with this. Even if I did, it would absolutely not part of any plan I have retrieve certain materials the probe in question may or may not have encountered on its mission. Even if it was part of such a plan, it's certainly not because those materials are useful in any sort of long-distance mind control/weather domination/Nell McAndrews disrobing device I am building. And even if I were building such a device, it would not be for any sort of world conquest scheme. Anything you read to the contrary in the Daily Planet is a vicious lie, and anyone who repeats that libel shall be stung tovdeath by mutant bees eaten alive by winged monkeys hearing from my lawyers.

[Kythereia]

Wee Betelgeusian: "Look! It's the human spacecraft!"

Other wee Betelgeusian: "Can we go out and play, Dad? Can we can we can we?"

Betelgeusian dad: "Oh, all right. But be back in time in for gnoosop or it's the Death Ray for you!"

[Santo Rugger]

Each year, they fall behind in their projected travel by about 5,000 kilometers (3,000 miles).

Sounds like a miscalculation of initial velocity to me, and not a deceleration. An error of .5 mph would give this result. If it was a deceleration, the number would grow every year.

[A.R. Cane]

Jet Propulsion Laboratory scientist John Anderson and his colleagues have been searching for an explanation since 1980.

Well, Rod Serling died in 1975, maybe it just took them awhile to pick up on it.

[Apocalypso]

Dammit!
I dunno if I should still plan on going ahead with my plans to have my body shot into space when I die...

The theory is (or was) that eventually some alien civilization may happen upon it, track it down to this planet, come here and suck up all of our resources and use us for food. I realize this is a long shot, but what the hell.

[simster]

Originally Posted by Santo Rugger

Sounds like a miscalculation of initial velocity to me, and not a deceleration. An error of .5 mph would give this result. If it was a deceleration, the number would grow every year.

you're assuming the deceleration is a constant - perhaps its sputniking?

[Really Not All That Bright]

Why would it decelerate, anyway? There's no force there to act on it.

[Sunspace]

Originally Posted by Really Not All That Bright

Why would it decelerate, anyway? There's no force there to act on it.

How do we know?!? There could be... anything... out there in the cold and dark, far from the warmth of the sun. Anything. Even now, it could be plotting its return to the golden spaces of the Inner System, from which it was banished billions of years ago.

We must be on guard.

:: shades eyes ::

I'll be over here.

[GuanoLad]

Laws? I've always thought of them more as guidelines.

[Diceman]

Here an interesting article from a few years ago. 13 things that do not make sense. The Pioneer problems are item #8, although they say the probe was speeding up, not slowing down.

[mks57]

Originally Posted by Santo Rugger

Sounds like a miscalculation of initial velocity to me, and not a deceleration. An error of .5 mph would give this result. If it was a deceleration, the number would grow every year.

I don't think so. JPL's Deep Space Network can make very accurate measurements of range (distance) and range rate (doppler/velocity) by transmitting a coded signal to the spacecraft that is retransmitted by the spacecraft. Sort of the radio version of a mirror. Comparing the transmitted and received signals allows the ground station to measure the round-trip propagation delay and doppler shift. The Pioneer spacecraft is too far way to do this today, but JPL should have a huge amount of ranging data from the time of launch until it was too far way for two-way radio communications.

[Voyager]

Dark matter. That would be cool, to have it so close. Maybe a little black hole, too small to see?

[SparrowHawk]

My theory is that it's rubbernecking an accident in the opposite lane.

[MaceMan]

Originally Posted by Really Not All That Bright

Why would it decelerate, anyway? There's no force there to act on it.

How about the gravity of the entire solar system acting in concert upon it? (Although I doubt the force would be enough at that distance for the observed effect.)

[Maui Lion]

I'd think there'd be dust, small rocks, etc floating around out there that could, over time, slow it down little by little. Though I'd think that'd be elementary and they'd take that into account.

[Zoe]

SparrowHawk! Do you know what splattered Citrusel does to a keyboard?

[Mangetout]

No one would have believed in the firsy years of the twenty-first century that this world was being watched keenly and closely by intelligences greater than man's and yet as mortal as his own; that as men busied themselves about their various concerns they were scrutinised and studied, perhaps almost as narrowly as a man with a microscope might scrutinise the transient creatures that swarm and multiply in a drop of water. With infinite complacency men went to and fro over this globe about their little affairs, serene in their assurance of their empire over matter. It is possible that the infusoria under the microscope do the same. No one gave a thought to the older worlds of space as sources of human danger, or thought of them only to dismiss the idea of life upon them as impossible or improbable. It is curious to recall some of the mental habits of those departed days. At most terrestrial men fancied there might be other men upon Mars, perhaps inferior to themselves and ready to welcome a missionary enterprise. Yet across the gulf of space, minds that are to our minds as ours are to those of the beasts that perish, intellects vast and cool and unsympathetic, regarded this earth with envious eyes, and slowly and surely drew their plans to slow down our interplanetary probes.

[Shodan]

Plus they need women.

Regards,
Shodan

[Ponder Stibbons]

Originally Posted by Voyager

Dark matter. That would be cool, to have it so close.

Oddly enough, that was exactly my thought. It may be that dark matter is "everywhere", that is, once you get far enough from any stars.

Quick, we need to send out a Deep Space Dark Matter Probe!

[Cluricaun]

It all began, old Ammi said, with the meteorite. Before that time there had been no wild legends at all since the witch trials, and even then these western woods were not feared half so much as the small island in the Miskatonic where the devil held court beside a curious 'lone altar older than the Indians. These were not haunted woods, and their fantastic dusk was never terrible till the strange days. Then there had come that white noontide cloud, that string of explosions in the air, and that pillar of smoke from the valley far in the wood. And by night all Arkham had heard of the great rock that fell out of the sky and bedded itself in the ground beside the well at the Nahum Gardner place.

[Borborygmi]

There was no explanation for the deceleration? I think I may have been stuck behind the Pioneer spacecraft on my way to work this morning. Was the right blinker on for the whole mission?

[Madd Maxx]

Is it possible that solar winds are responsible for a little push that allows for the "constant" velocity we observe in and around our solar system? I'm imagining the solar winds acting as a tailwind for objects leaving the solar system. Is there even been any object that appears to lose velocity going towards the sun, but that picks up velocity going away from the sun ala a comet? Now the probes are farther away from the sun, perhaps the little push from solar winds is reduced and the velocity of the probes has reduced accordingly.

[Mindfield]

Wouldn't this be related to the reasons that Voyager probes were slowing down? I thought they speculated that this had something to do with termination shock as the probes were approaching the edge of the heliosphere. I recall reading something about that a few months back.

Ah, here it is.

[Santo Rugger]

Originally Posted by mks57

I don't think so. JPL's Deep Space Network can make very accurate measurements of range (distance) and range rate (doppler/velocity) by transmitting a coded signal to the spacecraft that is retransmitted by the spacecraft. Sort of the radio version of a mirror. Comparing the transmitted and received signals allows the ground station to measure the round-trip propagation delay and doppler shift. The Pioneer spacecraft is too far way to do this today, but JPL should have a huge amount of ranging data from the time of launch until it was too far way for two-way radio communications.

I understand that. However, for there to be a constant expected position loss, that implies error in expected velocity. If there were really deceleration, as the article says, wouldn't the expected position loss become greater every year?

Originally Posted by simster

you're assuming the deceleration is a constant - perhaps its sputniking?

I know what Sputnik was, but what is sputniking?

[simster]

Originally Posted by Santo Rugger

I understand that. However, for there to be a constant expected position loss, that implies error in expected velocity. If there were really deceleration, as the article says, wouldn't the expected position loss become greater every year?



I know what Sputnik was, but what is sputniking?

clearly a very bad pun attempt on "sputtering".

nevermind -

[Antinor01]

Clearly they forgot to reroute main power through the impulse engines so that a tachyon beam could be fired from the deflector array.

[Voyager]

Maybe the probe got put on a treadmill?

[ChiefScott]

Either that, Antinor01, or the Tholean's are up to their "web" tricks again....

[flyboy]

Some chucklehead in NASA is forgetting to convert meters to feet again.

[Ale]

Maybe it`s cautiously slowing down as it enters the vast and unknown interstellar darkness; space probes have feelings too, you know?.
Don`t be too hard on him, its trying hard to do its best and if we can show some emotional support I`m sure Pioneer will gather his courage and keep going.

[butler1850]

"Those That Watch" (TTW) have been following the probe in their 23,579BC Sol cruiser at a discrete distance (3000 miles), and we're just measuring 'their' position, rather than the probes.

TTW became interested after the last planetary flyby, when it seemed to veer off on a course that suspiciously looked like the way TTW would have taken back to their place.

TTW's pilot, however, is a bit of a drunkard, and he tends to nod off a bit at the wheel. He does his best, but over time, he's slowed down just a bit.

Additionally the minor gravity affect from TTW's Sol cruiser's mass has tended to slow the probe a bit.

[Slypork]

It's slowing down because it is reaching the end of its power cord. Eventually it will rebound and come back to Earth.

[Musicat]

Seriously, folks, besides the fun reasons, these are the rational possibilities:

1. The measurement/observation/calculation is faulty
2. There is a gravitationally influential body or force that we have not yet discovered or detected that accounts for it, possibly invisible until now
3. All possible factors have not been taken into account (someone forgot to carry the 1 or add the micrometeorites)
4. The laws of physics as we know them do not work in such an environment without some compensation, in the same way that Newton's laws were modified by Einstein and Einstein's by Big Bang Theories.

[ShibbOleth]

Probably just the normal delays one encounters whilst the work on the Hyperspace bypass is underway. As I understand it they should be finishing up the demolition work fairly soon.

[Typo Knig]

Originally Posted by ShibbOleth

Probably just the normal delays one encounters whilst the work on the Hyperspace bypass is underway. As I understand it they should be finishing up the demolition work fairly soon.

Perfect combination of post and post number! <golf clap!>

[NurseCarmen]

The hubble zoomed into the Pioneer 10 with it's high powered camera, and noted that it's left blinker was stuck on.

[user_hostile]

Originally Posted by Mindfield

Wouldn't this be related to the reasons that Voyager probes were slowing down? I thought they speculated that this had something to do with termination shock as the probes were approaching the edge of the heliosphere. I recall reading something about that a few months back.

Ah, here it is.

If it happened only to Pioneer 10 & 11, then I would suspect a misunderstanding or misinterpretation of the results. Did NASA claim that Voyager 1 & 2 were showing the same anomaly?

[user_hostile]

Bump.

A partial explanation of the anomaly.

[lieu]

This link was at the bottom of your "partial explanation."

Alcoholism and Genetics; and Why Aren't the Pioneer Spacecraft Where They Should Be?

Gee, is that what explains the rest?

[pulykamell]

Originally Posted by Santo Rugger

I understand that. However, for there to be a constant expected position loss, that implies error in expected velocity. If there were really deceleration, as the article says, wouldn't the expected position loss become greater every year?

Not necessarily, I think. The article just says each year, the satellite is off by 5000 km short of projections. If projections are made yearly (I don't know how they are made, since the article doesn't explain it), it would stand to reason that the calculated velocity is getting a little slower every time, and projections made with the newly calculated (and slower) velocity still end up being off by 5000 km after a year is passed. So, even plugging in the new velocity year after year, projections are ending up short, suggesting that the spacecraft, in fact, is slowing down.

But, like I said, I don't know how they make these projections, or anything.

[nd_n8]

As I've said before, theoretical physics are theoretical. The "Laws" we have are, all humor aside, simply suggestions. There's more to this universe than what we can see and we are a damn sight away from understanding all of it. Not every...

Wait...

Slowing down you say? Isn't velocity and time and acceleration / deceleration and such pretty well understood by now?

Hmm... Nossir, I don't like it.

Now get off my lawn and take your space junk with you.

[Sailboat]

Originally Posted by user_hostile

Bump.

A partial explanation of the anomaly.

Originally Posted by From the article

the flow of heat and electricity produced by the craft's generators, which harnessed the heat from radioactive plutonium and turned a fraction of it into electricity to power the craft. The remaining heat [see note below] was lost to space or spread to other parts of the craft such as the antenna, which influenced each probe's overall momentum.

This passage seems to be glossing over the details. Does this imply that the heat radiating to space slowed down the probe? I guess in the form of infrared radiation? Would that have reactive force in the Newtonian sense, like rocket fuel? Do IR photons have mass? Why would the heat have a directional component (and thus slow down the craft), wouldn't it radiate equally in all directions? Or is that affected by the shape of the craft somehow?

Sailboat