Pub Closures

[Lust4Life]

I just want to get my opinion out to the world.

A hell of a lot of pubs are closing down in the U.K. and the smoking ban is getting the blame plus increased prices.

Now the increased prices discouraging people from going to the pub I personally think is part of the problem but I have never come across anyone whos said that they've stopped going to pubs because they cant smoke.

What I DO believe is that many grown ups have stopped going to pubs because of the number of young males out on a night who cant hold their drink.

If the YMs(and in some areas young women) dont actually start fights with the grownups or each other then they are still likely to act obnoxiously shouting,swearing,throwing up or falling over.

We as a nation seem to have produced several generations of Walter Mitty type wanna be "roughie toughies" who as soon as they have a few shandies feel that they have to act like 8 year olds and by doing so everyone will think that they're incredibly Macho.

Even if the venue itself hasn't got a reputation for drunkeness and violence people are still likely to encounter that behaviour either on their way to or from their night out.
And THAT is what is IMHO killing the brewery trade.

[Winston Smith]

No, mate. It's the media. Trust me on this.

[Audrey Levins]

Originally Posted by Lust4Life

What I DO believe is that many grown ups have stopped going to pubs because of the number of young males out on a night who cant hold their drink.

If the YMs(and in some areas young women) dont actually start fights with the grownups or each other then they are still likely to act obnoxiously shouting,swearing,throwing up or falling over.

Having never been to a pub in the UK, I can't state an opinion on them...but IME here in the States (as a patron and a bartender) young males at bars drinking and making a nuisance of themselves is not a new and/or shocking development. In fact it's pretty much standard. The cheaper the drinks, the more likely this is to occur, but I've seen plenty of it at expensive martini bars and hotels, too.

I find it hard to believe that this behavior could really be a contributing factor to the closing of pubs, in the UK or elsewhere, because it's gone on for as long as there've been public bars.

[Staggerlee]

Originally Posted by Lust4Life

Now the increased prices discouraging people from going to the pub I personally think is part of the problem but I have never come across anyone whos said that they've stopped going to pubs because they cant smoke.

My smoking friends and I definitely take account of the outside facilities when choosing which pub to go to - one of my favourite cider pubs gives the smoker the choice of a tiny yard right up against the toilets or out the front on a narrow pavement - a shooting gallery for the scorn of non-smoking passers-by. So I usually go somewhere else; the place is half empty.

Originally Posted by Lust4Life

What I DO believe is that many grown ups have stopped going to pubs because of the number of young males out on a night who cant hold their drink.

If the YMs(and in some areas young women) dont actually start fights with the grownups or each other then they are still likely to act obnoxiously shouting,swearing,throwing up or falling over.

We as a nation seem to have produced several generations of Walter Mitty type wanna be "roughie toughies" who as soon as they have a few shandies feel that they have to act like 8 year olds and by doing so everyone will think that they're incredibly Macho.

Even if the venue itself hasn't got a reputation for drunkeness and violence people are still likely to encounter that behaviour either on their way to or from their night out.
And THAT is what is IMHO killing the brewery trade.

But isn't it mainly smaller local pubs closing rather than the city centre bars where violent thuggery is most prevalent? I do agree that 'Binge Britain' drunkards put ordinary people off going out, but surely they usually just pick a less trashy alternative venue, rather than stay at home. Local (or at least more traditional) pubs as opposed to city centre bars tend to have some older punters about who help to police things a bit in my experience.

[Capt. Ridley's Shooting Party]

Pub numbers have been decreasing forever. My parents remember a time when every row of terraced houses had a pub at the end (a la Coronation Street), and you'd have row upon row of terraced housing.

When I was young, my village had seven pubs. It's now only got about five. That's still more than enough for the local market.

[TheLoadedDog]

Yeah, the oldies here talk about the days when Sydney had "a pub on every corner". Literally too- in the centre of the city, an average intersection would have four large corner pubs on it (you can still see them recycled as clothing shops and cafes).

I don't know about the UK, but pub licences here used to be limited by geographic area. You couldn't just set up a pub if the local area already had its quota (and it usually did). In recent times, the government abolished this, and now businessmen are buying cheap pubs in rural and outback areas, closing the pubs down, and moving the licence to the cities where they will start a seedy bar full of slot machines. This is at once making the cities horrible and destroying the soul of the small towns. It's utterly criminal.

[control-z]

Question: How can you get through Ireland without passing a pub?

Answer: Go into every one of them!

[GorillaMan]

Originally Posted by TheLoadedDog

I don't know about the UK, but pub licences here used to be limited by geographic area. You couldn't just set up a pub if the local area already had its quota (and it usually did). In recent times, the government abolished this, and now businessmen are buying cheap pubs in rural and outback areas, closing the pubs down, and moving the licence to the cities where they will start a seedy bar full of slot machines. This is at once making the cities horrible and destroying the soul of the small towns. It's utterly criminal.

It's halfway between the two in Britain - local authorities decide what's appropriate for any one locality, and issue licences or reject applicants as they see fit.

Originally Posted by Capt. Ridley's Shooting Party

Pub numbers have been decreasing forever. My parents remember a time when every row of terraced houses had a pub at the end (a la Coronation Street), and you'd have row upon row of terraced housing.

And when the only two things to do in the evening were watch Corrie or go to the pub, it's understandable how they could survive. They were also tied to breweries, so were essentially a factory outlet rather than an independent retail concern.


My opinion on the reason for the bizarre numbers quoted by the trade about pub closures? It's bad pubs which close. Be they ones which haven't seen a lick of paint in fifty years (nor bleach in the toilets for the same time), or drug-dealer dens, or just simply publicans with no business sense. If a landlord does his job properly, anyone creating an unpleasant athmosphere for others won't be getting served anything more.

[Lust4Life]

Originally Posted by Audrey Levins

Having never been to a pub in the UK, I can't state an opinion on them...but IME here in the States (as a patron and a bartender) young males at bars drinking and making a nuisance of themselves is not a new and/or shocking development. In fact it's pretty much standard. The cheaper the drinks, the more likely this is to occur, but I've seen plenty of it at expensive martini bars and hotels, too.

I find it hard to believe that this behavior could really be a contributing factor to the closing of pubs, in the UK or elsewhere, because it's gone on for as long as there've been public bars.

I've drank in a fair few places in different parts of the U.S. and the big difference that I've noticed is the much lower level of physical violence then that of the U.K.,I remember when my colleagues and I were pleasantly surprised when we actually saw a fight between two people(As opposed to several onto one) actually facing each other and when one of them went down his opponent actually waited for the other bloke to get up off of the floor before resuming the fight.

My own opinion of this is that in the U.S. if things get out of hand or someone starts on someone purely out of drunken bravado you never know if the victim is going to produce a firearm.
But as I say that is only my guess.


There is a pub close to where I live that used to do a good trade with ordinary working people coming from miles around to watch bands and socialise,the atmosphere was great.

But then for no apparent reason young Chavs from the nearby housing estate started using the pub,lots of swearing,hard staring and acting the hard man.
The original crowd stayed away in droves and the pub closed due to lack of money.

It has since reopened under different management three times,the last owner being a mate of a mate who told me that the Walter Mittys drove away businees to a point where by it wasn't worth continuing.

I have also seen this happen to an entire night out district where it used to be really friendly and welcoming,lots of hen parties because they felt safe but now its only drunken youngsters out for a fight who go to the area.


I could give other examples from my own experience but I expect you've got the message.

[GorillaMan]

Originally Posted by Lust4Life

...lots of hen parties because they felt safe but now its only drunken youngsters out for a fight who go to the area...

There's an irony here, because at least two of my very pleasant locals refuse to serve hen parties, because they drive away other customers!

[ScareyFaerie]

I don't go to the pub anywhere near as often as I used to (old age, y'know...) but certainly the level of violence, aggressive behaviour and "chavvery" has increased considerably in recent times. There are some pubs in town that we only go to for food and then escape to better places at the earliest opportunity.

I'm tempted to say that the troublemakers are the lager-louts, I'm a real ale drinker and in the pubs where there's naff all choice of lager but a fine selection of real ales, there's barely any bother. Nip down the road to the generic cheapy pub (the Goose or the local Wetherspoons) where you can choose from about 47 different draught and bottled lagers chilled to your desired temperature, and you'll get far more loutish behaviour. In fact, our local Wetherspoons is where we go to see life - if you don't see at least one fight in there you'll be going home disappointed.

[Staggerlee]

Originally Posted by ScareyFaerie

I'm tempted to say that the troublemakers are the lager-louts, I'm a real ale drinker and in the pubs where there's naff all choice of lager but a fine selection of real ales, there's barely any bother.

But this is surely because of the older demographic that real ale places attract. Like I said above, I reckon that you get trouble mainly where there aren't a few old hands to keep the youngsters in line. Just a pity it takes so many people until middle age to learn a sense of pub etiquette.

[toadspittle]

Originally Posted by Lust4Life

I've drank in a fair few places in different parts of the U.S. and the big difference that I've noticed is the much lower level of physical violence then that of the U.K.,I remember when my colleagues and I were pleasantly surprised when we actually saw a fight between two people(As opposed to several onto one) actually facing each other and when one of them went down his opponent actually waited for the other bloke to get up off of the floor before resuming the fight.

My own opinion of this is that in the U.S. if things get out of hand or someone starts on someone purely out of drunken bravado you never know if the victim is going to produce a firearm.
But as I say that is only my guess.

I suppose, in some areas. But (as a 'merican), I have to say that--at least, in my middle-class world--the bigger difference may simply be that there is no such thing as a "friendly brawl" between folks. Violence is all or nothing. You avoid violence at all costs, but then go all the way if you have to fight. If someone hit me or one of my friends in a bar, the fight would end with someone (quite possibly me, mind you) beaten unconscious, not with merely a black eye and a pat on the back and then back to drinking.

It's also amusing to see the ales vs. lagers argument ... there is no distinction made here, whatsoever. (Save that all the ales are usually over-hopped, snooty microbrews.) Hell, in most bars, people aren't even aware that what they're drinking is a lager. It's just "beer."

[Pushkin]

Originally Posted by control-z

Question: How can you get through Ireland without passing a pub?

Answer: Go into every one of them!

I'm not sure if this is true, but I can vaguely remember reading a book by someone who had walked the length of the border that there is only one town in Ireland to have neither bookie or pub.

[toadspittle]

Originally Posted by ScareyFaerie

In fact, our local Wetherspoons is where we go to see life - if you don't see at least one fight in there you'll be going home disappointed.

That just seems insane to me. I mean, sure, people get shot in this country, but I can count on one hand the number of fights I've seen in my life. The US has a reputation for being awash in violence, but we don't have this cavalier attitude towards brawling. (Or, maybe, the class division is so much stronger here that it's happening all the time in worse parts of towns, but my kind just never sees it.)

[Capt. Ridley's Shooting Party]

FWIW, I've only ever seen one fight in a pub, and that was after England got knocked out of the World Cup on penalties (it was more a riot than a fight - there were tables and chairs being thrown about and everything - I ended up hiding in a broom cupboard with my friend until the bouncers and police waded in ).

You're much more likely to see fights in town, where all the nightclubs are on the same street, and all empty at pretty much the same time.

Hundreds of drunk young men + lack of taxis + rain = disaster.

[GorillaMan]

Originally Posted by ScareyFaerie

I'm tempted to say that the troublemakers are the lager-louts, I'm a real ale drinker and in the pubs where there's naff all choice of lager but a fine selection of real ales, there's barely any bother. Nip down the road to the generic cheapy pub (the Goose or the local Wetherspoons) where you can choose from about 47 different draught and bottled lagers chilled to your desired temperature, and you'll get far more loutish behaviour. In fact, our local Wetherspoons is where we go to see life - if you don't see at least one fight in there you'll be going home disappointed.

Originally Posted by toadspittle

It's also amusing to see the ales vs. lagers argument ... there is no distinction made here, whatsoever. (Save that all the ales are usually over-hopped, snooty microbrews.) Hell, in most bars, people aren't even aware that what they're drinking is a lager. It's just "beer."

It's more a metaphor than a real distinction. Wetherspoons pubs often have a variety of real ales & bitters, admittedly badly-kept, while on the other hand, the best pub by a long shot around these parts for decent beer also has a vast selection of lagers, both on tap and bottled. And while normally filled with young people, is not a place you'd expect a fight to break out. Another example of this contradiction is my preferred rather lively boozer near the football ground for pre/post-match drinks, which also morphs into a heavy metal venue in the evening...as you've probably guessed, this landlord also goes against the stereotype and takes pride in the quality of his ale.

[Ximenean]

Originally Posted by toadspittle

That just seems insane to me. I mean, sure, people get shot in this country, but I can count on one hand the number of fights I've seen in my life.

Let's not overstate things. While admittedly not a great pub-goer, I have been in a few in my time and I have never seen any violence or intimidating behaviour. They can get a bit rowdy during England football games, but that's about it. I don't recall ever having witnessed a street fight, either.

[Quartz]

The worst thing I'e seen recently was in a Yates pub where two people started kissing and got rather carried away and sort of forgot that not only were they not at home but at a table right by the front window. Until the manager intervened, that is.

[GorillaMan]

I've seen similar. It was in Rotherham. Nuff said.

[Sal Ammoniac]

I find myself wondering if changing gender attitudes are driving the decline. Here in the States, things like bowling leagues and social clubs (Elks, Odd Fellows, etc.) are in steep decline, and part of the reason is that those places used to be where men went to escape their wives. To the extent that pub patrons used to be mostly men, I'd guess that pubs would be affected by the same phenomenon. In short, I guess men just like their wives better these days.

[muldoonthief]

Originally Posted by Sal Ammoniac

I find myself wondering if changing gender attitudes are driving the decline. Here in the States, things like bowling leagues and social clubs (Elks, Odd Fellows, etc.) are in steep decline, and part of the reason is that those places used to be where men went to escape their wives. To the extent that pub patrons used to be mostly men, I'd guess that pubs would be affected by the same phenomenon. In short, I guess men just like their wives better these days.

Nah, it's just that now that we let them wear shoes, they keep following us out of the house.

[msmith537]

I haven't witnessed too many fights in Manhattan bars. At least not compared to when I lived in Boston. I would guess the reason is that in Boston, the bars tend to be clustered in certain neighborhoods - Landsdown St near Fenway, Faniel Hall area, Alston/Brighton. They also close around 2am. So basically, at the end of the evening, you suddenly get hundreds of pissed off drunk dudes who didn't hook up all thrust out onto the street together.

Outside of the cities in the suburbs, I'm not sure how much of a pub culture there is. Drunk driving seems to be frowned apon as is coming home to your family late at night reeking of alchohol. Bars seem to be mostly for guys grabbing an after work beer or young people looking to hook up.

[Moirai]

I have a friend who shuttered his pub in Co. Leitrim recently. He thought it would be the smoking ban that did it, but it was the drink tax. He got too pissed off to do business anymore and bailed. Now he has a couple of chippies. Less hassle, good money.

[Really Not All That Bright]

Pubs have always been full of lager louts. They're pubs. That's what they're for.

Pubs are closing because people suddenly have other shit to do (the internet, more than four TV channels, nightclubs that aren't the Mecca, etc.), not because people are scared of drunk yobbos.

[toadspittle]

Originally Posted by EJsGirl

Now he has a couple of chippies. Less hassle, good money.

What does this mean? In our parlance, "chippies" means young, attractive women. (Or chipmunks.) Is he a pimp? Or is "chippies" slang for fish-and-chips shops, or something?

[Audrey Levins]

Originally Posted by Lust4Life

My own opinion of this is that in the U.S. if things get out of hand or someone starts on someone purely out of drunken bravado you never know if the victim is going to produce a firearm.
But as I say that is only my guess.

It is illegal to carry a gun into any establishment that serves or even sells alcohol; now of course you could argue that "surely people do it anyway" but I've never even met someone who carries a gun on their person. I do know one guy who has a gun in his car but that's because he does a lot of traveling through very remote areas. More people have guns for "home security" reasons but that isn't what we're talking about, as those are not carried about to whip out at a bar in the event of a fight.

I think some people overseas greatly overestimate the average American's fondness for firearms...like just because we can buy them and--with a permit--carry them around means that lots of us do. The idea is a bit absurd.

I'm sure there are shady bars in less desirable areas where you might not want to assume that nobody's "packing," but in the average neighborhood bar? Seriously? This isn't the Old West. I've seen my fair share of bar fights because I've worked in them for years and they're de-escalated by bouncers, male bartenders, and cops. Not because of the perps' fear of getting shot. I find the idea quite silly.

[Quartz]

Originally Posted by toadspittle

What does this mean? In our parlance, "chippies" means young, attractive women. (Or chipmunks.) Is he a pimp? Or is "chippies" slang for fish-and-chips shops, or something?

The last: fish and chip shops.

[chowder]

My local watering hole was virtually empty following the smoking ban.

The gaffer had a sort of gazebo erected for us filthy smokers and gradually the place started to fill up.

Unfortunately the latest increases have meant that it's getting back to as it was and nobody stays in a pub if you walk in and there are only a couple of other blokes there

[Meurglys]

It used to be every drinker's dream to live in a flat above (or very close to) a pub.
Now, with the floating crowd of often noisy smokers hanging about on the pavement outside, I'd never move close to a pub.
But at least you can see some of the clientele outside and tell from a distance which pubs to avoid!

When I worked slightly further out of town I often went for a drink after work; now I work in the centre (The Grassmarket, if you know Edinburgh) I never do - it quickly becomes a horrible place to try to have a quiet drink, or the one bar I do like is often far too busy to actually relax in...

We tend to drink in the 3rd closest pub to our flat and even then we sometimes give it a miss (and go to the 11th closest) as it's often full of v.noisy sports fans... practically every pub has TVs on all the time and they never show anything but sport, which can get boring if you're not a fan. If there's a big match on, we sometimes just stay in and avoid the crush and noise - and these are relatively well-behaved folk, not the neds and chavs, stags and hens, etc...

We're slowly joining the 'bottle of wine at home' brigade...

Old farts, us!

[An Gadaí]

A lot of pubs in Ireland are closing down. There are various reasons cited. The smoking ban, tighter drink/driving legislation, demographics (that is the clientele of country pubs getting older and dying and not being adequately replaced), and the price of alcohol have all been blamed. I've heard from several publicans who had pubs with an older clientele that their customers hate standing outside to smoke because the weather here is generally shit and they might be "seen".

[Lust4Life]

Actually I can see the point made in the increased choice of things to do of a night other then watch Corrie on the telly and going to the pub but one indicator that seems to show that there is at least something in my point is the number of "ordinary" pubs as opposed to night out pubs that now employ bouncers on the door at W/Es.

I cant see pub owners/managers spending from the profits without a very good reason.

An unrelated point but of interest I think is when a real ale/wine bar opened up in my area several years ago now,right next door to a soccer pub and with four others in close proximity the chavs decided to make it one of their watering holes.

The owners started playing classical music in the background which promptly got rid of the yobs.

It is now an incredibly successful bar judging by the number of customers even during the week and has a great,really friendly feeling there.They've actually bought the neighbouring premises and expanded the place.

[GorillaMan]

Originally Posted by Lust4Life

Actually I can see the point made in the increased choice of things to do of a night other then watch Corrie on the telly and going to the pub but one indicator that seems to show that there is at least something in my point is the number of "ordinary" pubs as opposed to night out pubs that now employ bouncers on the door at W/Es.

There is something to this, but there can also be other reasons for employing bouncers, anything from checking IDs to a blanket requirement for it from the local authority.

An unrelated point ... It is now an incredibly successful bar judging by the number of customers even during the week and has a great,really friendly feeling there.They've actually bought the neighbouring premises and expanded the place.

I don't think it's unrelated at all. What you describe fits in with what I said earlier, about how it's the badly-run pubs which are likely to fail, and this sounds like a very well-run place doing exactly the opposite.

[Quartz]

The pub up the road from me is for sale. I doubt it's anything to do with the smoking ban. Shitty food, shitty service, and a shitty clientele discouraging the more general customer are more likely to blame.

[msmith537]

The smoking ban hasn't seemed to affect New York bars. People just go hang outside and smoke. It's also apparently a good way for single smokers to meet each other.