A customer called me 'officious'

[blinkingblinking]

I work in a bank. I was being very formal and following procedure.
When I looked the word up in a dictionary the meanings are 'officious - intrusive in a meddling or offensive manner', and 'disposed to serve; kind; obliging.'
I do not think he was using the word in either meaning.
I think he was saying I was being overly official in adhering to the procedures of the bank. What word do you think he was trying to say?

[Freudian Slit]

Probably that you were trying to be overly official. I just recently learned that officious is one of those words that doesn't mean what you think it should mean. I always thought it was overly official, bureaucratic, because of how Stephen King used it in "The Shining."

[Harmonious Discord]

You look like bank officer material. They had no idea it didn't mean that.

[ShibbOleth]

"Thank you, sir, I try to be extremely cromulent in my work. It embiggens me that you should notice."

[blinkingblinking]

Originally Posted by ShibbOleth

"Thank you, sir, I try to be extremely cromulent in my work. It embiggens me that you should notice."

I did say thank you to him because I thought he was saying I was following procedures.

[blinkingblinking]

Originally Posted by Freudian Slit

Probably that you were trying to be overly official. I just recently learned that officious is one of those words that doesn't mean what you think it should mean. I always thought it was overly official, bureaucratic, because of how Stephen King used it in "The Shining."

Why is there no mention of this usuage on online dictionaries?

[Harmonious Discord]

Originally Posted by ShibbOleth

"Thank you, sir, I try to be extremely cromulent in my work. It embiggens me that you should notice."

That would have been a nice reply.

[Hellestal]

Originally Posted by blinkingblinking

Why is there no mention of this usuage on online dictionaries?

New usages have to become fairly established in the language before lexicographers consider listing them in the dictionary. It's possible that it's uncommon enough that they're unaware of the usage (it can't make the cut if they don't know about it), or maybe they're aware of it but still consider it a mistake because it hasn't become common enough to be a well understood part of English.

[CC]

On the other hand, picture this: a guy is pissed at his bank - something's gone wrong with his account, he's trying to get something straightened out - and some bank employee starts following rules and regulations that really don't seem pertinent and treats the slowly burning customer with some measure of what seems to be disdain. The customer, after having held his tongue for the entire time, tries to convey this to the bank's representative. "You are being quite officious," to which the bank employee responds, "Thank you, sir."

Does this strike anyone else as funny?

[blinkingblinking]

Originally Posted by Kendall Jackson

New usages have to become fairly established in the language before lexicographers consider listing them in the dictionary. It's possible that it's uncommon enough that they're unaware of the usage (it can't make the cut if they don't know about it), or maybe they're aware of it but still consider it a mistake because it hasn't become common enough to be a well understood part of English.

Can you give me any cites of this new usage?

[Freudian Slit]

Originally Posted by blinkingblinking

Why is there no mention of this usuage on online dictionaries?

I'm not sure it is a real usage. I just know that I personally (and I guess the guy you spoke to) thought it meant overly official.

[mhendo]

Originally Posted by Kendall Jackson

New usages have to become fairly established in the language before lexicographers consider listing them in the dictionary.

With some dictionaries that's true. It sometimes seems to me, though, that Merriam-Webster's minimum criterion for inclusion is that three or more frat boys once used the word during the early morning hours of a keg party.

[mlees]

He might have been going for "Anally retentive".

[Hellestal]

Originally Posted by blinkingblinking

Can you give me any cites of this new usage?

I found two examples where this entertainment writer uses the word in the sense of "very formal or official". He clearly seems to think it has a meaning with no negative connotation.

I wasn't specifically searching his archive either. I did a Lexis Search on the word, and this guy came up a couple times, and his writing was helpful because there was enough context that it was clear what he meant. So there are definitely professional writers out there who clearly think it means "formal", and it's not a long step from there to imagine that a customer would say so in a business context and mean it as a compliment, especially if they were frustrated with informal service at other places.

Or maybe the customer insulted you, and you said "thank you". Eh, sometimes these things happen.

Originally Posted by mhendo

With some dictionaries that's true. It sometimes seems to me, though, that Merriam-Webster's minimum criterion for inclusion is that three or more frat boys once used the word during the early morning hours of a keg party.

I've yet to come across a single credible criticism of good ole M-W. They've taken fire for many years now, since the publication of the Third, but nothing has stuck.

I think maybe you're just a bit persnickety about language. You're a Garner fan, are you not?

[mhendo]

Originally Posted by Kendall Jackson

I think maybe you're just a bit persnickety about language. You're a Garner fan, are you not?

I am, precisely because i find him an excellent middle ground between hidebound prescriptivism and laissez-faire linguistic nihilism.

[kunilou]

I grabbed the closest dictionary on my shelf, which happens to be the 1966 edition of Webster's New World (Sure, I bet you all throw out your old dictionairies!) The definitions are, indeed, as noted, "ready to serve" and "offering unnecessary and unwanted advice or services; meddlesome."

However, I also noted the word officialism: "the characteristic practices and behavior of officials; especially, excessive adherence to official routine and regulations; red tape."

Then I pulled out something more current, the 1999 edition of Roget's 21st Century Thesaurus. Under officious, it says "Self-important, dictatorial," and of the 14 synonyms it gives, the only one that is NOT negative is "pragmatic."

So while the word the customer was probably grasping for was bureaucratic (or perhaps officialistic) "officious" seems to be an accepted synonym.

ETA: I just pulled up the Encarta Dictionary of MS Word and for "officious" it says "meddlesome and interfering."

[KneadToKnow]

Originally Posted by Freudian Slit

Probably that you were trying to be overly official. I just recently learned that officious is one of those words that doesn't mean what you think it should mean. I always thought it was overly official, bureaucratic, because of how Stephen King used it in "The Shining."

In fact, it is the very first word in the book, IIRC.

[blinkingblinking]

Originally Posted by mlees

He might have been going for "Anally retentive".

When a bank customer is being a jerk and asking for bank procedure to be broken and asks me to break the law on his behalf, I have a method to deal with said customer. Instead of telling him to "Fuck off loser !", I become overly bureaucratic and pedantic. It annoys the jerk and makes it difficult for him to complain about me.

[Topologist]

Mainly to see what happened, I looked up "officious" in the dictionary that comes with Mac OS X. From the New Oxford American Dictionary, it gives the first definition as "assertive of authority in an annoyingly domineering way, esp. with regard to petty or trivial matters," which sounds like what the customer meant.

Interestingly, the thesaurus that's part of the same application (the Oxford American Writer's Thesaurus), adds a discussion of the difference between "officious" and "official," using as an example of the proper use of officious, "he was an officious teller who chastised us for not properly sorting our money by denomination."

[Martini Enfield]

Douglas Adams used the word "Officious" to describe the Vogons; and from the context he clearly meant it in the "Bureaucratic Rule Nazi" sense.

[blinkingblinking]

Originally Posted by Martini Enfield

Douglas Adams used the word "Officious" to describe the Vogons; and from the context he clearly meant it in the "Bureaucratic Rule Nazi" sense.

He said in 'The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy' that "Vogons are one of the most unpleasant races in the galaxy. Not evil, but bad tempered, bureaucratic, officious and callous.'

I took that to mean the meaning of 'intrusive in a meddling or offensive manner'. Otherwise why would he say they were also bureaucratic.

[CC]

Originally Posted by blinkingblinking

When a bank customer is being a jerk and asking for bank procedure to be broken and asks me to break the law on his behalf, I have a method to deal with said customer. Instead of telling him to "Fuck off loser !", I become overly bureaucratic and pedantic. It annoys the jerk and makes it difficult for him to complain about me.

And, no doubt, provokes some folks to assert that you are officious, which, by your own admission, you are, regardless of what instigates it. You, I should remind you, are in a service profession, meaning that your job is to satisfy, molify, and treat with courtesy all those who come to you for your services, even the jerks. I'd suggest that you learn to take a more civil approach to those customers who offend you with their requests, only for the sake of the business you work for. Customers may or may not complain about you, but they certainly do not appreciate being treated the way you describe, and they may very well complain to others who may take their business elsewhere. Poor service, as defined by your petulant approach to difficult customers, is the bane of businesses everywhere and one reason that some business are losing customers.

[mlees]

Originally Posted by CC

And, no doubt, provokes some folks to assert that you are officious, which, by your own admission, you are, regardless of what instigates it. You, I should remind you, are in a service profession, meaning that your job is to satisfy, molify, and treat with courtesy all those who come to you for your services, even the jerks. I'd suggest that you learn to take a more civil approach to those customers who offend you with their requests, only for the sake of the business you work for. Customers may or may not complain about you, but they certainly do not appreciate being treated the way you describe, and they may very well complain to others who may take their business elsewhere. Poor service, as defined by your petulant approach to difficult customers, is the bane of businesses everywhere and one reason that some business are losing customers.

No snark here: Are you suggesting that blinkingblinking do something that breaks banking laws, or breaks that banks procedures, just to mollify an upset customer?

That sounds like a great way to get himself fired...

[blinkingblinking]

Originally Posted by CC

And, no doubt, provokes some folks to assert that you are officious, which, by your own admission, you are, regardless of what instigates it. You, I should remind you, are in a service profession, meaning that your job is to satisfy, molify, and treat with courtesy all those who come to you for your services, even the jerks. I'd suggest that you learn to take a more civil approach to those customers who offend you with their requests, only for the sake of the business you work for. Customers may or may not complain about you, but they certainly do not appreciate being treated the way you describe, and they may very well complain to others who may take their business elsewhere. Poor service, as defined by your petulant approach to difficult customers, is the bane of businesses everywhere and one reason that some business are losing customers.

What should I do when some jerk asks me to break the law on his behalf?
What would you do?
Would you like the staff in your bank to be casual and rule breaking and law breakers? Or would you like them to follow bank procedures?

[elfkin477]

Originally Posted by Freudian Slit

Probably that you were trying to be overly official. I just recently learned that officious is one of those words that doesn't mean what you think it should mean. I always thought it was overly official, bureaucratic, because of how Stephen King used it in "The Shining."

I disagree. It seems to me, anyway, that King means meddlesome, not overly official. After Jack calls the guy interviewing him an "officious little prick" he goes on to grill Jack over whether or not his wife knows what's involved and is she on-board, can their kid handle being up there alone etc. It fits more with kunilou's "offering unnecessary and unwanted advice or services; meddlesome" than some attempt to say the guy conducting the interview was acting in an official capacity.

[KidScruffy]

Originally Posted by CC

You, I should remind you, are in a service profession, meaning that your job is to satisfy, molify, and treat with courtesy all those who come to you for your services, even the jerks. I'd suggest that you learn to take a more civil approach to those customers who offend you with their requests, only for the sake of the business you work for.

What luck! It appears as though blinkingblinking's boss is a doper!

[CC]

Originally Posted by KidScruffy

What luck! It appears as though blinkingblinking's boss is a doper!

Nope - a customer.

[JimOfAllTrades]

Originally Posted by CC

And, no doubt, provokes some folks to assert that you are officious, which, by your own admission, you are, regardless of what instigates it. You, I should remind you, are in a service profession, meaning that your job is to satisfy, molify, and treat with courtesy all those who come to you for your services, even the jerks. I'd suggest that you learn to take a more civil approach to those customers who offend you with their requests, only for the sake of the business you work for. Customers may or may not complain about you, but they certainly do not appreciate being treated the way you describe, and they may very well complain to others who may take their business elsewhere. Poor service, as defined by your petulant approach to difficult customers, is the bane of businesses everywhere and one reason that some business are losing customers.

Maybe, but probably not in the situation as described that you are specifically responding to.

If a customer is just being a jerk, well, anybody can have a bad day, and part of being in a service industry (especially in retail) is you generally have to grin and bear it at least up to some point, and continue to give good service.

But if a customer is asking someone to violate procedure to the extant that laws are broken, then they deserve to be told “I’m sorry, we can’t do that, it violates the law”. If they insist, ‘Fuck off” is what they deserve, continued service for the legal parts of their transaction with bare toleration is what they get if they’re lucky, and anything beyond that is gravy. (This all assumes that the service person is correct about the procedures and legalities.)

Frankly, as soon as any customer asks to do something that violates the law, my advice is to say ‘I’m sorry, I can’t continue with this transaction, you’ll have to speak to my manager”. However, that’s just my policy to keep people who work under me from having to spend time dealing with crap not in their job description.

And I have told customers to fuck off.

[CC]

well, of course, I have admittedly hijacked this thread and I apologize. But I refuse to acknowledge that there's any excuse for treating a customer, or anyone, for that matter, so rudely. The decline of manners in daily exchanges is well documented, and to rationalize telling someone to "fuck off" because their own behavior is rude, or demanding, or because they are insisting that someone else break the law is not justification enough. I realize this opens an enormous philosphical arena, but I don't believe that one person's bad behavior excuses another's. I have spent a lot of time dealing with the public in many different settings, and I have spent a lot of time being the public. There are ways to disagree, there are ways to refuse to do something you find repugnant, and there are ways to respond to ugly behavior. None of them includes also being rude.

[Colophon]

Maybe he meant "efficient".

[blinkingblinking]

Originally Posted by CC

well, of course, I have admittedly hijacked this thread and I apologize. But I refuse to acknowledge that there's any excuse for treating a customer, or anyone, for that matter, so rudely. The decline of manners in daily exchanges is well documented, and to rationalize telling someone to "fuck off" because their own behavior is rude, or demanding, or because they are insisting that someone else break the law is not justification enough. I realize this opens an enormous philosphical arena, but I don't believe that one person's bad behavior excuses another's. I have spent a lot of time dealing with the public in many different settings, and I have spent a lot of time being the public. There are ways to disagree, there are ways to refuse to do something you find repugnant, and there are ways to respond to ugly behavior. None of them includes also being rude.

I did not say 'Fuck off ' to the customer. Did you actually read my post?
I had a guy ask me to break the law on his behalf- commit fraud for him. First I politely said I could not do what he was asking. He asked me about 10 times. Each time I got a bit more formal and bureaucratic. After the 10th time he asked and I refused he called me 'officious'.

It is amazing how many customers will call the bank or walk into the bank and ask the staff to commit fraud or break the law for them. They obviously do not say 'Would you mind breaking the law for me?'
What they say is 'My housemate is in hospital.I just need his credit card number to pay his hospital bill as he is on medication.'

[Martini Enfield]

Originally Posted by CC

well, of course, I have admittedly hijacked this thread and I apologize. But I refuse to acknowledge that there's any excuse for treating a customer, or anyone, for that matter, so rudely. The decline of manners in daily exchanges is well documented, and to rationalize telling someone to "fuck off" because their own behavior is rude, or demanding, or because they are insisting that someone else break the law is not justification enough. I realize this opens an enormous philosphical arena, but I don't believe that one person's bad behavior excuses another's. I have spent a lot of time dealing with the public in many different settings, and I have spent a lot of time being the public. There are ways to disagree, there are ways to refuse to do something you find repugnant, and there are ways to respond to ugly behavior. None of them includes also being rude.

Evidently you don't work in customer service at present. I deal with around half a dozen people each week for whom the only appropriate response to their problem is "Pull your head out of your ass and then kindly fuck off", pretty much exactly in those words. If I owned the store, I would in fact use those words on some of them. I don't, for the simple reason I like being paid, fuckwit customers aside.

Most of the hundreds and hundreds of people I deal with are fine, but the wanker quotient around here is certainly skewed higher in favour towards "Dickheads" than "Nice people".

I'm glad to hear that people like blinkingblinking are out there doing their jobs, and making sure that anyone who wanders into the bank pretending to be someone's cousin doesn't get given their credit card details for any reason; and if they (bank staff) want to tell said unreasonable request making person to fuck off in exactly those words, they have my full blessing. YRMV, of course.

[Eben]

In my retail experience, the worst customers are those who know they are wrong and are trying to get away with something. Most honestly mistaken (actualy lost receipt or whatever) people tend to be very humble about the situation. At a default, I'm far more willing to bend the rules on returns and such for someone who's humble about it. If a customer comes in the store angry and tells me I have to do something outside of policy, I generaly tell them to go away unsatisfied.

[mlees]

I can imagine that there are drama queens out there.

Unfortunately, you can efficiently handle a hundred polite customers in a day, but it only takes one to ruin it.

[Elendil's Heir]

Originally Posted by Topologist

..."assertive of authority in an annoyingly domineering way, esp. with regard to petty or trivial matters," which sounds like what the customer meant....

That's how I've always thought of it. Indeed, I've never heard or read "officious" used as a compliment.