Child visitation advice needed: should you force kids to visit if they don't want to?

In My Humble Opinion
1

My boyfriend (“Greg”) has three boys, ages 12, 10, 8, and he and his ex-wife (“Susan”) have been separated and divorced for 6 years. The boys live with their mother in California, and a couple years ago, Greg moved to Virginia. So as you can imagine, visitation is a bit difficult and costly. Their current arrangement is that the boys are to come to Virginia to visit their dad twice a year - once in the summer and once at Thanksgiving or Christmas. Greg and Susan are supposed to split the travel costs.

Anyway, a bit more back story: Greg and Susan have a very contentious relationship. Susan doesn’t hide her intense dislike for Greg from the children. It seems like she instills her dislike for him into the kids. There are many many examples but one recent one is that recently, when Greg was laid off from his job and missed a child support payment, she told the kids that they couldn’t do certain activities becase “your dad has not paid his child support.” Susan and her new husband make the kids call Greg “Greg,” instead of “Dad,” and make them call their stepdad “Dad.” They are very confused. It seems Susan just wants to replace Greg with her new husband as “Dad,” and forget about Greg entirely (well except for the monthly support check she gets).

Ok, to the question: Summer visitation is coming pretty soon. Susan really doesn’t want the kids to come mainly because she would have to split the cost (even though Greg has offered to front the entire amount - some $1,800 - and have her pay back her half over the course of time). Susan tells Greg that the two oldest boys don’t want to come visit. The youngest boy is indifferent about coming. Greg hasn’t seen the kids since Thanksgiving - 7 months.

So, should he let the kids decide whether to come visit or not? Or should he force them to come?

I feel strongly that the kids’ desire not to come is colored by their mother’s dislike of Greg. In fact, I think Susan says many negative things to the kids about Greg and it brainwashes them into not wanting to come (things like, “your dad is trying to make you come live with him” or “your dad is going to keep you and not let you come home,” NONE of which are remotely true, they are just scare tactics.) There is no real reason for the kids not to like Greg - he is a great father and the kids always have a blast when they come visit.

So, since the boys’ desire not to come is likely primarily based on their mother, should he make them come, or should they get a choice in the matter?

2

I should add: The visitation this summer would be for one week only. Hopefully, in the future when the kids are teenagers, they will want to come visit for the whole entire summer. But for now, it’s just one week.

3

A woman I met was telling me about her grown daughter. The daughter’s kid didn’t want to visit his father. He put up more and more of a hissy fit every time and ultimately she decided she couldn’t force him. She lost the kid to him because the court chose to see it as her refusal to allow visitation.

According to her a certain amount of this was “old boys network” in the particular court that was handling the case. YMMV.

4

I can’t really offer any advice, but the question comes to mind: does Greg maintain other contact with the boys (letters, e-mails, phone calls)? That would seem like a good avenue to try to keep up a relationship with them when he can’t see them. Or does Susan block that sort of communication too?

5

Most states hold up the divorce agreement when it comes to visitations and whatnot. Even if a parent is behind in childsupport, the custodial parent cannot hold back on visitations.

Ime, the only way to alter the visitations is through the legal court or by both parties. To stop visitations or to alter them against the noncustodial parent’s wishes usually involves CPS investigations to prove that the parent is not fit/capable of visitation without supervision. Be careful if it is off-record though because it could backfire as lobotomy indicated.

Very important for the non-custodial parent to remain in contact with the children between visitations, imo.

6

Yes he keeps up good contact. He talks on the phone with them 3 times a week. They don’t have e-mail so that’s not an option.

This really isn’t the issue here. Susan isn’t actively trying to block the visitation. The two older kids are sulking and saying they don’t want to come, and I believe it is directly related to Susan’s constant disparaging of Greg. I think the kids know deep down inside that Susan doesn’t want them to come, so they go along with that.

The question is, should Greg go ahead and book the plane flights and make them come? Or should he allow them to skip the visit?

The way I see it, if they are forced to come, they’ll show up all sulking and sullen and maybe they will end up resenting Greg for “making” them come despite their wishes. Will this do more harm than good?

7

I’m surprised to hear that the custody agreement doesn’t make it verboten for Susan to allow the children to call anyone but Greg “Dad.” Certainly that was a key part of The Monster’s custody agreement.

I’m not sure what the best thing would be. On the one hand if the kids are that negative towards the visit, even if mom’s programming them, I’m not sure it’s going to do any good. On the other hand I can imagine the kids also considering this a test (esp. if mom is saying shit like “Greg doesn’t love you. He moved and left you behind.” etc. etc.) of Greg’s resolve and emotions.

My gut feeling is that at the ages mentioned, the two older boys have a right to have their wishes listened to. I don’t think that necessarily means they should expect to have their wishes followed, but concern for what they want should be there. The younger boy should visit, I think, especially since he’s “indifferent.” Which is a very different thing from being opposed.

If there’s an open line of communication between the boys and Greg, I’d suggest that Greg explain he misses the boys, and wants to see them very much. Then ask the boys if they still want to avoid coming. Don’t go the “What fun we’ll have” route - trying to buy affection is a losing strategy, IMNSHO, and sleazy, to boot. No matter how tempting. Just have Greg emphasize his love and missing for the boys. If this is a matter of maternal manipulation that might get them to agree to the visit.

And at least, if it Greg can’t change their minds, it will serve to make the point to the boys that he wasn’t trying to abandon them or avoid them.

However it works out, sounds like a shitty situation all over. Good luck to you and Greg.

8

I think the kids need to visit. Kids often decide that they don’t want to do something - then when they do it, it was cool and wonderful. I’ve had my own kids not want to go to their grandmother’s (they LOVE my mother’s place) simply because they might miss something at home. Their prioritization sucks - even at ten and twelve.

If they don’t visit, Susan will start spinning “he doesn’t even want you.” They will perceive that HE chose to drop out of their lives - ten and twelve year old kids don’t really expect that THEIR choices changed their world.

9

This is coming from a 35 year old father of two young daughters who was raised by a responsible “single” mother. I say single because my father didn’t have his straw-breaking affair until I was 14 and I actively helped to orchestrate him getting kicked out of the house one of the best nights of my life. He had little to do with me after that and has seen my 6 year old and 2 year old a combined 5 hours total in their lives.

That said, I do believe the kids have to go see him. They aren’t adults and there are legal arrangements in place. For all they know, he may have some insight or revelation about what went wrong and how it can be amended. He may decide to do much better and follow through with it for everyone’s benefit. They dont have to do anything in particular once they are with him. They could act like pure terror and he will never propose the idea again. They are still his children and all parent’s deserve both the consequences of what they have done wrong and the opportunity to improve on the relationships with their kids.

Mothers cannot be allowed to roam the landscape as she-demons either. Paternal rights have long been neglected both legally and socially and small steps in the right direction are akin to parts of the feminist movement. It is in everyone’s best interest as long as the big picture is kept in focus for everyone involved.

10

Yes, I think they should have to go on the visit. And I think that they will perceive it as abandonment if they don’t.

11

Question - you said “Susan tells Greg that the two oldest boys don’t want to come visit.” Has Greg asked the boys directly? Or if he has, does their tone of voice sound genuine? If the visitation issue is really that contentious between the two of them, it’s not impossible that Susan is spinning things her way.

If it’s indeed the kids, I don’t know that I believe that a 12 and 10 year old should be making this call, especially if it’s just a week and Greg is in regular and affectionate contact with them. (For the record, for a 14 year old, I’d have to at least consider it. 13… hm. I’m not sure. )

Who knows, maybe they just don’t want to be away from their friends for that long, or they have a concert nearby that week, or their mom told them that she’ll be inconsolable while they’re away from her. Any of that is possible at those ages, as forethought, consideration of their father’s feelings, and recognition of a custodial mother’s manipulation are all in short supply.

And, not to be discouraging, if it’s really the truth that they don’t want to come visit a father that they haven’t seen in 7 months, then this may be one of Greg’s last big chances to reconnect with them. Has he considered going back to court to get one or two more visits a year with them?

12

At this point, he’s heard it only from Susan. I suggested what OtakuLoki also suggested:

I suggested he tell them how he feels - that he misses them and wants to see them, and then ask if they want to come, and see what they say when asked directly. The problem is, he thinks they might just say whatever they think he wants to hear, or that they won’t be completely honest to his face (or, on the phone, I should say). So he’s not sure if he’ll be getting a real answer.

They just went through a round of litigation last fall (which cost him some $5,000) to get the arrangement to what it currently is (2 visits to Virginia a year). It would be hard to do more than that because (1) airfare for 3 kids is expensive (2) It’s hard to work around school and (3) he’d also have to get more time off work or get child care. However, I should add that he has gone out to California to visit them a couple of times over the past year.

13

This is very true. They may be sulky and sullen the first day, but most likely they will end up having a good time…

Although… when they visited last time, they seemed to have a wonderful time, but then apparently went home and complained about this and that to their mother… which the mother tried to use against Greg. It’s a long story and I will explain in the next post…

14

He should go and spend a week in California with the kids…one airfare for him and extra money left to do some fun things with them. Check state laws to see if there is some mandatory leave laws that may apply.

I also want to add that since he moved away from them, he inherently weakened his position as a father who will be there for them and the ability to get joint custody. Although he may have a legitimate reason for leaving (a new job in Virginia), the mother could use that move against him as a father who really doesn’t want a relationship with his kids.

15

The boys last came to visit over Thanksgiving. The first night they arrived, the youngest boy (“Kevin”) had an earache and greenish/yellow pus tinged with blood was oozing out of his ear. He said that a few days prior - while at his mom’s house - he and his brother were playing around with Q-tips and that is when he got hurt.

The next day Greg called Susan to tell her about Kevin’s ear. Susan knew about Kevin’s ear and blew it off, saying that her new husband – who apparently had army medic training during his brief stint in the army – looked at it and said it was just a “scratch” and nothing to worry about. Susan said there was no need to take Kevin to the doctor.

So several days passed and Kevin’s ear was still oozing. We decided it was imperative to take him to the doctor. Greg called Susan to get Kevin’s health insurance information. Susan got angry and refused to give him the information, and hung up on him. Greg was going to take Kevin to the doctor anyway, but an hour later, Susan’s husband called and gave Greg the health insurance information.

Greg took Kevin to the doctor, and sure enough, his ear was infected and he was prescribed antibiotics.

But here’s the kicker: The doctor said it would be unsafe for Kevin to fly for the next 10 days. The doctor wrote a note explaining this and Greg faxed it to Susan.

However, Kevin’s flight back to California was in just 2 days. Susan freaked out.

Greg would have gladly kept Kevin for another 10 days while the 2 older boys flew back home, and then sent him back on a rescheduled flight. But Susan would have none of that. She had her husband’s cousin drive from 2 states away (some 12 hours) to come pick up Kevin and keep him until his grandfather (Susan’s father) could drive across the country – from CALIFORNIA – to pick him up.

That’s right – instead of letting Kevin stay with Dad for an extra 10 days, she had her dad drive across the country to pick him up.

Apparently in Susan’s mind, this was all a ploy for Greg to “kidnap” Kevin.

Once Susan got back to California she immediately went down to the courthouse and filed for a modification to the custody agreement asking for all sorts of outrageous things, including asking that the children not be permitted to leave the state of California for visitation. This was done out of anger over the fact that Kevin couldn’t fly home because of his ear infection. Never mind that (1) she should have taken him to the doctor when it first happened at home and (2) she should have encouraged Greg to take him to the doctor when Greg first called her.

And keep in mind, this is just about 3 months after they went through a long process to have the custody arrangement updated last fall (for which Greg paid $5,000 for a lawyer).

So since this incident last Thanksgiving, things have been horrible. Susan refuses to talk to Greg. For example, normally she will have the boys call and send a card on Father’s Day. This past Father’s Day, just a few weeks ago, Greg got NOTHING from his kids. No call, no card.

16

IANAL, but I’ll explain further on the earlier example and give another, for what they’re worth.

As I posted, this woman’s daughter lost her child. When the kid didn’t show up, they claimed she was interfering. When you think about it, parents can and do manipulate children. They could claim she was offering a reward: “If you stay with mommy, we’ll have ice cream every night!” Or, they can withhold affection: “It would hurt mommy so much if you leave!” Etc.

IANAL and I can’t speak to how it works everywhere; I only know what she told me. But it seems to me that the court has probably plugged that because it would be an easy dodge for many parents: “I just can’t get him to go!”

And on this point I have to say that I think it’s really dangerous to ask the kid how they feel about it etc. As long as they enjoy seeing the other parent, that’s great. But ultimately I think you’re going to reach a point where the kid doesn’t want to go and you’ll have to say, “I’m sorry you feel that way…but you have to.” I.e. I care but I don’t care.

Example 2: I know a guy who had three kids from his marriage and when they divorced, the deal was that he would get them X amount of time each summer, while they were on vacation from school, because they lived in a different state. At first, they liked it because he took them everywhere (amusement parks etc.) and that was cool in their eyes.

About the age of 11, the eldest of the three didn’t like coming any more. It was becoming “been there, done that.” Along the age of 13, the eldest was getting unbearable about it—but he came. Well if the oldest didn’t come, the other two wouldn’t either, so the guy fought to keep them coming and his ex- always delivered, getting them to the airport.

The last summer that all three visited, he said the eldest was really a pain. He was maybe 14 that year and I suppose he wanted to be back home, where he had friends (and quite possibly a girlfriend). It got to the point where the kid got violent with his dad, pushing him into a window and breaking it. This was on the second floor and had there not been bars on the window on the outside, it could have been pretty bad to say the least.

At that point he decided it wasn’t worth further damaging the relationship, so he let him off the hook. At that point, the younger ones came less and less as well. I don’t know but I wouldn’t be surprised if he gave his ex- written permission to let them stay rather than come.

But the point is that was his decision and it came from what he observed, not from her saying “I can’t make them come.”

And I’d point out that visiting family isn’t supposed to be insanely fun every day. So it would be great if all kids warmed to the idea that just watching TV with the parent is good, that they need to know the absent father, etc. I think it’s dangerous to let them suppose that their vote counts, because unfortunately it doesn’t.

If I had a child who was truly refusing to visit the other parent, I’d consider calling the police. In the first case I mentioned, a little child would probably snap to when the uniform arrived. But I don’t mean to turn a cop into my personal drill sergeant…I just want the kid to know it’s serious, and sometimes they take that better from an impersonal authority figure.

The other good thing about calling a policeman: he’s a credible, impartial witness. If you’re ordering the kid and the kid is having none of it, the policeman can note that. If the allegation came up in court that you weren’t sincere about getting the kid where he needed to be, a policeman could refute it.

Again, IANAL, YMMV.

17

Like I said before, he has gone out there to visit a few times. However, Susan made it very difficult for him… for example, Greg showed up to pick up the boys and Susan’s mother met him with a document which she said he must sign before taking the kids, saying that he promised not to kidnap them. Susan also said she wanted Greg to submit a document in advance each time he wanted to visit, stating the start and end time of visitation, and that if he was 15 minutes late to pick them up, the visitation would not take place. Likewise, if he were 15 mins late in returning them, they would call the police.

Not that those things are necessarily unreasonable, but none of this had ever been a problem before. Before all the strife after the Thanksgiving visit, Greg never encountered any problem when he went to California to visit them.

Last time he went to visit he was not allowed to see them, because the boys were “busy” on that particular day.

Besides, if he was limited to only visiting them in California, it would not be the same type of experience. He would have to stay in a hotel and they could not spend the night with him. They could not spend time with his friends and family in Virginia. It would cost Greg a lot in eating out (each meal with him and the kids would have to be out) and for the hotel and rental car.

Is it so much to ask for a father to have twice a year visitation over summer and Thanksgiving or Christmas? Is that really so excessive?

Is it really reasonable to expect fathers never to move out of the state that the mother chooses to live in? In Greg’s case, he had to move for work. Especially since Greg is the sole financial provider for the kids - he has to make money. The mother does not work and contributes $0 to their care. Why should she dictate where he can live?

18

Thank you so much for the anecdotes, they are helpful. I think you’re right - they’re too young to be given a vote. It’s only a week and they are at an age where it’s important to see their dad and reinforce that their dad wants to be in their lives.

19

Watch your back. It sounds like Susan’s looking for trouble and you want to make sure you’re within the letter of the law, not just the spirit.

IANAL and I’d be curious to know about that document he “must” sign. I mean, if it isn’t in the visitation provisions set down by the court, did he really have to sign it? I hate to be a PITA but when someone introduces their own requirements, it seems a tactical error to kowtow to their demands, i.e. “OK I’ll take whatever you dish out.” You don’t back down from a bully unless you want to be bullied even more.

I’d like to know from a lawyer. Suppose he said, “Fuck you, I’m not signing that!” and they said, “Well, then, you can’t have the kids!” Wouldn’t they be defaulting on the agreement, supposing the court order didn’t require he sign for them?

I’m all for doing things the nice way, without involving courts any more than necessary, but I think they’re adding their own terms and I wouldn’t sign a thing I wasn’t required to sign.

20

Make no assumptions about the reasons for the boys feeling as they do. It may just be their ages and their desire to remain around their friends.

No matter what their reasons, they should not be allowed to sulk their way out of a week with their father. They are old enough to be sensitive to his feelings and show some reasonableness. Chances are that when they get there, their sulkiness won’t last long. Don’t give them a single chance to say when they are older that their Dad didn’t show up for them. This will just reenforce anything negative that they may have heard.

Do listen to their reasons for not wanting to come. Ask them questions about it without interrupting. Then Dad should ask them to listen to him without interrupting. That is the time to explain why he must insist that they do come to visit.

Do not say anything negative about their Mom while they are there. Discourage them from saying anything negative about her.

BTW, Mom should be paying her court-ordered share of the flight in my opinion. Don’t let her weasel out next time.