SDMB Baseball Hall of Fame, Vote #4: Shortstops

The Game Room
1

This is the fourth round of voting on the SDMB Baseball Hall of Fame. In this round we will be voting on shortstops. I think this one will REALLY be a doozy.

The rules remain the same as before:

  1. Please vote for TEN shortstops who have played major league baseball in North America, not including Negro League play, for which we will have other rounds of voting. You may vote for fewer than ten if you like, but I do ask you name ten if you possibly can. If you vote for more than ten, all names past #10 are discounted. The order you place the players in makes no difference.

  2. Your votes are not restricted by any restriction Cooperstown uses. You may vote for currently active players, players who have just recently retired, or players whose eligibility to Cooperstown has passed.

  3. The ten players who receive the most votes are immediately inducted into the Hall of Fame.

  4. Although I will provide, in this post, a full list of all shortstops who are in the Hall of Fame, likely candidates, or had careers of significant length and accomplishment, it is an open ballot and you may vote for absolutely anyone you wish. If I miss a really significant name, please make it known.

  5. Discussion is encouraged but please let some votes gather up first. Detailed discussion of this series of threads may be found here:

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=477967&page=2

Thanks, and happy voting!
Luis Aparicio
Luke Appling
Dave Bancroft
Ernie Banks
Dick Bartell
Mark Belanger
Jay Bell
Lou Boudreau
Larry Bowa
Bert Campaneris
Leo Cardenas
Ray Chapman
Dave Concepcion
Joe Cronin
Bill Dahlen
Alvin Dark
George Davis
Tony Fernandez
Art Fletcher
Jim Fregosi
Greg Gagne
Nomar Garciaparra
Jack Glasscock (huh huh huh)
Dick Groat
Granny Hamner
Travis Jackson
Hughie Jennings
Derek Jeter
Billy Jurges
Eddie Joost
Don Kessinger
Barry Larkin
Herman Long
Johnny Logan
Rabbit Maranville
Marty Marion
Freddie Patek
Rico Petrocelli
Roger Peckinpaugh
Pee Wee Reese
Cal Ripken, Jr.
Phil Rizzuto
Alex Rodriguez
Joe Sewell
Everett Scott
Ozzie Smith
Vern Stephens
Miguel Tejada
Garry Templeton
Joe Tinker
Alan Trammell
Cecil Travis
Arky Vaughan
Honus Wagner
Bobby Wallace
John Ward
Omar Vizquel
Maury Wills
Robin Yount

2

Ernie Banks
Lou Boudreau
Joe Cronin
Derek Jeter
Cal Ripken Jr.
Alex Rodriguez
Joe Sewell
Ozzie Smith
Arky Vaughn
Honus Wagner
Ozzie is the only man who makes the list based primarily on defense.

And Jeter makes my list despite being only an average defensive shortstop, at best.

Shortstop is one of the positions where I WANT to count defense more strongly. And I’d LOVE to put Mark Belanger in the Hall of Fame for his glove alone. Unfortunately, he was waaaaay too weak a hitter.

Ozzie Smith gets in because his fielding percentage shows he was every bit as sure-handed as Belanger AND had better range besides.

Joe Sewell gets in because a guy who strikes out that rarely is nothing short of miraculous.

3

Luke Appling
Ernie Banks
Bill Dahlen
George Davis
Cal Ripken, Jr.
Alex Rodriguez
Ozzie Smith
Arky Vaughan
Honus Wagner
Robin Yount

Close but no cigar for Lou Boudreau, Joe Cronin (really hard to separate him and Appling), Derek Jeter (severely dinged for the defense), Barry Larkin (probably #11 for me; criminally underrated), Pee Wee Reese, Alan Trammell, and George Wright, among others.

Lots of good candidates.

4

Honus Wagner
Arky Vaughan
Alex Rodriguez
Ernie Banks
Robin Yount
Joe Cronin
Cal Ripken, Jr.
Barry Larkin
Ozzie Smith
Luke Appling

Another tough one. Just missing the cut for me were Trammell, Reese, Jeter, Boudreau, and George Davis.

5

Cal Ripken Jr. - So much more than the record. But, that record is impessive.
Alex Rodriguez - Amazing Hitter
Ozzie Smith - Amazing fielder
Honus Wagner - Expensive baseball card.
Ernie Banks - Let’s play two!
Luke Appling - Never saw him play. But, his stats are impressive.
Derek Jeter - Criminally overrated, but still fantastic.
Arky Vaughan - Fun name!
Robin Yount - Great hitter and played forever.
Barry Larkin - Could do everything well.

6

My picks:

Honus Wagner
Cal Ripken, Jr.
Ozzie Smith
Ernie Banks
Alex Rodriguez
Robin Yount
Joe Cronin
Luke Appling
Luis Aparicio
Hughie Jennings

7

Luke Appling
Lou Boudreau
George Davis
Herman Long
Pee Wee Reese
Cal Ripken, Jr.
Alex Rodriguez
Ozzie Smith
Arky Vaughan
Honus Wagner

Here’s an instance of the multiposition thing hurting deserving players. I had Banks and Yount on my original list of 14, but when paring it down, I said “Okay he (they) didn’t play his whole career at short and these other guys did, so they have to go.” Not sure that was right, but that’s what happened.

8

My ballot:

Alex Rodriguez - One of the greatest hitters of his time in any position, the fact that he’s done it at shortstop makes him a modern legend. That he’s also a good defensive shortstop (his Range Factor / Game was consistently well above league average during his time at SS) makes him one of the best players who’s ever lived. I had the pleasure of watching him play for many years in Seattle before he decided to pretend to chase championships for obscene amounts of money.
**
Honus Wagner** - The premiere offensive shortstop of the dead ball era. Impressive offense (his career OBP was 60 points above league average!), and his defensive stats weren’t too shabby, either. Extra points for having a famous baseball card.

Ozzie Smith - The Wizard of Oz’s reputation is much deserved. I watched him play during the tail end of his career, and he really was a brilliant defensive player. His RF/9 vs. league RF/9 bears that out. Also, his OBP was a hair above league average, which means he shouldn’t be outright disqualified for his offense (yes he was an awful slugger but he very rarely struck out, as well). Extra points for backflippery.
**
Ernie Banks** - Great defense and a great slugger. His OBP was a little less than league average, but his other attributes make up for it. Extra points for suffering with the Chicago Cubs. :wink:

Cal Ripken, Jr. - He never struck me as a truly great defender, but he was certainly solid, and his defensive stats bore that out. One of the best hitting shortstop of his time, until ARod and crew came knocking. Not that he was great (OPS+ 112), but for a shortstop, really good. Extra points for being an Iron Man and giving baseball a bit of positive publicity.

Arky Vaughan - This guy’s numbers are amazing for shortstops of his time. OBP at .406, OPS+ at 136, and his defensive numbers look average-above average. Don’t know much about him, but come on in.

Luke Appling - He’s pretty much just numbers to me, as well but career OBP at .399 is pretty impressive. His RF/G is also well above league average.
**
Barry Larkin** - Very solid offensively and defensively, and while not spectacular in either, was among the best of his time at both. Extra points for being under everybody else’s shadow.

**Robin Yount - Similar to Barry Larkin. Extra points for playing forever, and a day, and somehow managing to grind out 3100+ hits.
**
Joe Cronin - Like Luke Appling, very nice numbers all around, and gotta love the career OBP of .390.
EDIT: I just realized I’m a total OBP whore. And I’m fine with that. I actually wish OPS was normalized so that OBP counted as much as SLG, or even more. 2x OBP + SLG or something like that.

9

Oh and about Derek Jeter. I just couldn’t bring myself to vote for a subpar defender in such an important position, no matter how much of an offense whore I am. If he had ARod stats, sure, but not DJet stats.

10

Ozzie Smith
Arky Vaughan
Honus Wagner
Alex Rodriguez
Cal Ripken, Jr.
Ernie Banks
Lou Boudreau
Luis Aparicio
Joe Cronin
Luke Appling

The thing to remember is that being left off this list of 10 doesn’t mean they aren’t good enough to be in the HOF, they’re just not Top 10.

Jeter’s defensive “liability” is extremely overstated. Anyone who has watched his whole career closely will testify to that. That’s a whole 'nother thread though.

Larkin and Vizquel are/were great players, but not Top 10.

Scooter and Pee Wee? Ditto.

Yount is a tough one. I only saw him play outfield, but he may not make the cut there with the amount of great players that will be on that list.

11

Ernie Banks
Lou Boudreau
Dave Concepcion
Joe Cronin
Marty Marion
Cal Ripken, Jr.
Alex Rodriguez
Honus Wagner
Maury Wills
Robin Yount

12

Honus Wagner
Pee Wee Reese
Cal Ripken, Jr.
Phil Rizzuto
Alex Rodriguez
Ernie Banks
Omar Vizquel
Robin Yount
Lou Boudreau
Luke Appling

13

Luis Aparicio
Ernie Banks
Lou Boudreau
Pee Wee Reese
Cal Ripken, Jr.
Phil Rizzuto
Ozzie Smith
Honus Wagner
Omar Vizquel
Maury Wills

14

Duplicate post

15

Boy, this one IS hard.

Luke Appling - It’s not every player who’s lifetime OBP exceeds their SLG.
Ernie Banks
Joe Cronin
Derek Jeter
Cal Ripken, Jr.
Alex Rodriguez
Joe Sewell
Ozzie Smith
Arky Vaughan
Honus Wagner

Yount removed because maybe I can slide him into CF.
Aparicio - That .311 lifetime OBP is a killer.

Argh. This was REALLY painful. There have been on HELL of a lot of great shortstops over the years. Removing Trammell gave me shortness of breath.

16

Honus Wagner (I’d love to see what he would do in a lively ball era-probably 40-50 home runs)
Arky Vaughan (severely underrated by history, but the 2nd-best hitting SS)
Cal Ripken Jr. (had his ups and downs during the streak but all those games added plenty of extra value)
Robin Yount (prime was mostly as a SS-terrific player and teammate)
Ernie Banks (ditto Yount-pretty indifferent 1B tho but incredible hitter when a SS)
Barry Larkin (we’ll see in a couple of years how the writers see him-injury prone but great when in the lineup-you’ll note that most guys here were up and down in terms of production and/or playing time-tough position to stay healthy at)
Ozzie Smith (incredible glove, underrated as a hitter despite no power, outside of a couple of playoff games of course)
Alan Trammell (my sad sack pick here-getting no love from the voters so far-about the 6th best hitter, unappreciated fielder)
Alex Rodriguez & Derek Jeter (as a Red Sox fan it…took…me…a…long…time…to type in their names, but no choice really. Jeter is overrated, mediocre defender, but few outhit him, A-Rod gets some grief from the media but only Wagner and maybe Vaughan outhit him)

Honorable mention to Peewee Reese, Luke Appling (he of the endless foul ball at-bats), and Nomar (who if not injured for the past 5 years I would have included with Jeter and A-Rod)

17

Honus Wagner. I hate to go that far back in time but he was dominant. All time great numbers.
Banks
Arod
Yount
Arky Vaughn
Ripken Showed up for work on time a lot
Larkin
Jeter
Trammell Hit 300 7 times. Terriffic dbl play combo with Lou for 19 years

18

You’re entitled to one more name, gonzo.

My list:

Honus Wagner
Cal Ripken, Jr.
Arky Vaughan
Alex Rodriguez
Ozzie Smith
Robin Yount
Joe Cronin
Luke Appling
George Davis
Alan Trammell

19

Oops skipped Ricky Henderson I dislike him but…

20

I would like to make a change in my vote. I would like to Sub Jeter in for Vizquel.

Ricky played exactly 0 games at short gonzomax, who did you mean?