Seven Sinful Cities?

[BrotherCadfael]

In Heinlein's Glory Road, the protagonist finds himself in Singapore, which he describes as "one of the Seven Sinful Cities where anything can be had." He didn't list the other six, and I am not familiar enough with organized vice (or disorganized vice, for that matter) to be able to fill in the blanks.

So: What are the Seven Sinful Cities? The cities where, if you put a foot wrong, you will wind up in a back alley, beaten, robbed, drugged, and sold into slavery in a brothel?

While you can probably find anything in Salt Lake City that you can find in Vegas if you look hard enough, what I am looking for are the cities which glory in their seamy reputation, the places where drugs, gambling, prostitution, murder for hire, official corruption, and talking in the theater are the norm rather than the exception.

I came up with four:

Las Vegas
New Orleans
Rio de Janero
Singapore

I could add a few more, but am not certain enough of my facts to put them down in pixels. Amsterdam has the drugs and the prostitution, but does it have the overall seediness to qualify? Does Macao still have that reputation, or was that a century ago? Is Hong Kong included, or are its sins nowadays more of a financial nature than those of the flesh?

I'm sure we have more than enough expertise on the Dope to fill out or correct my list. What are your nominations for the Seven Sinful Cities?

[mswas]

I'd say that New York or Los Angeles probably qualify.

[Sage Rat]

I doubt that there's much you can't get in Moscow, these days.

Amsterdam is probably pretty good for sex and drugs. Probably not as good as Moscow for black market weapons.

[Mr. Moto]

Nah. NY and LA are positively at Salt Lake City level compared to some places I've been. For that matter, so is Vegas.

Rio ranks right up there, though it was positively genteel compared to Tijuana.

[Giles]

I'm not sure than Singapore qualifies: you can get flogged for littering there, and that's not such a big sin. But, if Singapore, then I'd suggest adding Bangkok and Hong Kong to the list.

[Hockey Monkey]

Bangkok

Tijuana

Amsterdam

[Mahaloth]

Macau or Hong Kong in Asia, along with Bangkok(which goes even too far obviously).

[mswas]

Originally Posted by Mr. Moto

Nah. NY and LA are positively at Salt Lake City level compared to some places I've been. For that matter, so is Vegas.

Now that's probably true, but not when Heinlein was writing.

[BrotherCadfael]

Originally Posted by mswas

Now that's probably true, but not when Heinlein was writing.

Good point.

I'd forgotten about Bangkok and Tijuana - Bangkok probably outdoes Singapore nowadays. Moscow is also a good one.

Keep 'em coming!

[Paul in Qatar]

Manamma, Bahrain
Rio
Tijuana
Manila

[AHunter3]

Shanghai, at least historically.

[WillSantini]

Laredo

[The Batman]

I agree with everyone who's mentioned Tijuana, I moved away from there almost a year ago but it's been the wild west over there, especially these last five years.

[Desert Nomad]

Originally Posted by BrotherCadfael

While you can probably find anything in Salt Lake City that you can find in Vegas if you look hard enough, what I am looking for are the cities which glory in their seamy reputation, the places where drugs, gambling, prostitution, murder for hire, official corruption, and talking in the theater are the norm rather than the exception.

Not quite the same, but in Peshawar you can find most anything - weapons/drugs related. Need a surface to air missile, no problem.

[Mbossa]

Marrakech (aka Marrakesh) sounds like it might fit the bill.

Marrakech has the largest traditional market (souk) in Morocco and also has one of the busiest squares in Africa, Djemaa el Fna.[1] The square bustles with acrobats, story-tellers, water sellers, dancers, and musicians, as well as drug lords by day; By night, the square turns into food stalls, becoming a huge open-air restaurant with busy life that include the infamous Ladies of the Night(prostitutes).

[ASAKMOTSD]

What no love for Detroit? We have murder, corruption, occasional mayhem - what do you people want?

[Terrifel]

St. Petersburg, Florida. On the surface it seems quiet... TOO QUIET. Yet beneath its brittle veneer of geriatric indifference lurks a seething cauldron of immorality and perversion. Some of these debaucheries are known only to the extremely elderly. Here, every form of depravity is catered to for the right price. Corruption and degeneracy are rampant in this unwholesome bastion of moral turpitude. Vile pedlars hawk their obscene wares along the shadowed market streets, chanting hoarsely in unknown tongues. In the pallid light of dawn, heavily cloaked figures move silently among the gutters, gathering up the dead; corpses eviscerated of organs, corneas, bone marrow, scavenged over until they are practically unidentifiable as human.

[WormTheRed]

I'd say Riga would qualify. As I in one weekend there got threatened by the russian mob (at a restaurant) and a guy who kept offering me "whatever you can think of" when I walked past his car.

That guy really reminded me of Chet P***y (Soooo NSFW) in From Dusk till Dawn

[LouisB]

Originally Posted by Terrifel

St. Petersburg, Florida. On the surface it seems quiet... TOO QUIET. Yet beneath its brittle veneer of geriatric indifference lurks a seething cauldron of immorality and perversion. Some of these debaucheries are known only to the extremely elderly. Here, every form of depravity is catered to for the right price. Corruption and degeneracy are rampant in this unwholesome bastion of moral turpitude. Vile pedlars hawk their obscene wares along the shadowed market streets, chanting hoarsely in unknown tongues. In the pallid light of dawn, heavily cloaked figures move silently among the gutters, gathering up the dead; corpses eviscerated of organs, corneas, bone marrow, scavenged over until they are practically unidentifiable as human.

Yeah, but it beats Tampa. Tampa ain't nothing but sink holes and traffic jams.

[Terrifel]

And strip clubs! Don't forget the strip clubs.

[Paul in Qatar]

Oh, and pre-Revolution Havana.

[DMark]

Berlin?

Legal prostitution, yep.
There are several casinos scattered through the city.
Drugs plentiful in certain areas of town.
Murder for hire? Hmm - probably could find some mafia types there, but if you do it yourself, there is no death penalty in Germany, and the sentences are pretty light compared to the US.
Now, the talking in theaters - that is the deal breaker. They don't do that there.

[kevja]

San Francisco.

Maybe not in the top seven, but since the gays run the town, it deserves consideration.

[Siam Sam]

Everyone thinks of Bangkok, but really, as far as Thailand goes, Pattaya is definitely the one that qualifies. It is Sleaze Central.

I would not include Singapore, at least not in recent decades. Over here, it has a very strait-laced reputation. It's really a modern place and as such, a good first stop for Westerners to ease into Asia. Ironically, a few years ago, the Singaporean government finally extended bar hours and even legalized table-top dancing, which had been strictly outlawed, at about the same time that the Thai government started cracking down on bar hours in Bangkok. I would put Hong Kong ahead of Singapore even though, yes, I think much of the crime there now is financially related. (No one cares about tradition anymore. )

I also nominate Phnom Penh. A fascinating city for a weekend visit, but there is some truly evil sleaze around.

[Greg Charles]

Singapore? Singapore is a shopping mall with an army.

However, prostitution is legal there in some forms. It's certainly not as exposed as it is some places in Thailand or even Viet Nam, but it does exist. No drugs though. One Vietnamese national was executed in Singapore for smuggling drugs from (I think) Burma to Malaysia, but stupidly transitioned his flight in Singapore and was unlucky enough to be caught there. Gambling exists I think, but not to the extent of other Asian capitals. Smoking and drinking are legal, but heavily taxed. You can't buy chewing gum at all, though I've heard you can bring it with you.

Heinlein's description of "Sin" city seem badly out of date.

[madmonk28]

Count me in as another person scratching his head at the inclusion of Singapore. Back during the 60s and 70s, it was probably sinful, but it is very safe and clean now. I go there every couple of months for R&R and even the taxi drivers are honest.

[Koxinga]

Originally Posted by Greg Charles

Singapore? Singapore is a shopping mall with an army.

Great quote. May I steal it some time?

As for the OP, I haven't been around much, even in Asia. Once, when I was back in the US and word got around in my workplace that I had been working recently in Taiwan, an older fellow kind of sidled up to me and started asking, "so, uh, over there where you were, it's, uh, kind of like sin city over there, uh?", all shifty-eyed, like a really sleazy Boomhower. Didn't occur to me 'til later that, once again, someone had misheard and thought I had been working in Thailand. If I'd known, I'd start telling him all about the goldfish and ping pong balls, but too late.

[Siam Sam]

Originally Posted by Greg Charles

One Vietnamese national was executed in Singapore for smuggling drugs from (I think) Burma to Malaysia, but stupidly transitioned his flight in Singapore and was unlucky enough to be caught there.

If that's the case I'm thinking of, he was taking them from Vietnam to Australia, which he and and his family were citizens of. And the only reason the poor bastard was doing it was because his lowlife brother had gotten into a lot of trouble with Vietnamese loan sharks or other shady types in Australia, and by transporting these drugs this one time, they were going to forgive all or part of his brother's debts. Hope the brother appreciated the effort!

Looking up Glory Road, I see it was published in 1963. I guess Singapore was still a little wild at that time. I have an American friend who was stomping around the city-state circa 1975-77, and it sounds like it was still not much reformed then.

Anyone here remember Flashman's escapades in Singapore in Flashman's Lady?

[Siam Sam]

Originally Posted by Koxinga

Once, when I was back in the US and word got around in my workplace that I had been working recently in Taiwan, an older fellow kind of sidled up to me and started asking, "so, uh, over there where you were, it's, uh, kind of like sin city over there, uh?", all shifty-eyed, like a really sleazy Boomhower. Didn't occur to me 'til later that, once again, someone had misheard and thought I had been working in Thailand. If I'd known, I'd start telling him all about the goldfish and ping pong balls, but too late.

It is not uncommon for us Thailand-based expats to be asked what it's like living on an island that's threatened with imminent Chinese invasion.

[Koxinga]

Trade ya.

[Rodgers01]

Originally Posted by Mahaloth

Macau or Hong Kong in Asia, along with Bangkok(which goes even too far obviously).

Definitely not Macau. I saw more "sin" in the three weeks I spent in Vegas than in the year I spent in Macau. Heck, in the casinos over there they don't even normally serve you alcohol, but push around carts of tea and milk!

I never even saw much sinfulness going on in Hong Kong. I know it has a reputation for the whole "World of Suzie Wong" thing, but as far as I could tell that's mostly long gone. Hong Kong is all modern and clean and long working hours as far as I could tell.

[Martini Enfield]

I'm going to add Tijuana as well- having visited there, I have to say it's exactly like it is in the movies- and add Casablanca, which apparently still has a reputation as One Of Those Places where you can get anything if you talk to the right people, with the right mix of Foreign & Exotic thrown in for good measure.

Singapore had a fairly wild reputation right up until the '60s, IIRC, although as has been said it's a fairly strait-laced (excuse the pun) place now and Bangkok appears to have taken over its former role, at least in popular imagination.

[Capt. Ridley's Shooting Party]

Originally Posted by WormTheRed

I'd say Riga would qualify. As I in one weekend there got threatened by the russian mob (at a restaurant) and a guy who kept offering me "whatever you can think of" when I walked past his car.

That guy really reminded me of Chet P***y (Soooo NSFW) in From Dusk till Dawn

Riga seemed pretty quiet, when I was there. A guy in Vilnius kept trying to sell us Soviet era gasmasks from under his trench coat, though.

[WormTheRed]

Originally Posted by Capt. Ridley's Shooting Party

Riga seemed pretty quiet, when I was there. A guy in Vilnius kept trying to sell us Soviet era gasmasks from under his trench coat, though.

We must've not been in the same neighbourhoods

[Koxinga]

Back in the mid-90s, my roomates and I were watching Escape from New York on TV, and one of them kept swearing up and down that several scenes were just like Russia when he had been living there just recently.

[TheLoadedDog]

Originally Posted by Rodgers01

I never even saw much sinfulness going on in Hong Kong. I know it has a reputation for the whole "World of Suzie Wong" thing, but as far as I could tell that's mostly long gone. Hong Kong is all modern and clean and long working hours as far as I could tell.

I have to agree. You can get anything you want in Hong Kong, but you can get anything you want pretty much in any town in the world if you know who to ask. I love Hong Kong, but it's not what I would call sleazy or bawdy. Maybe in the old days...

[Shagnasty]

I recently read a list of the top, sinful party cities in the world. New Orleans was the only U.S. city to make the list coming in at number seven IIRC. I can easily see that after living there but I was a little surprised that Las Vegas wasn't included as well.

[even sven]

Lagos.

[Swallowed My Cellphone]

Colón, Panama. It is a port city at the north end of the Panama Canal. It is known as a hotbed for smugglers and tourists are strongly discouraged from visiting, due to the number of pirates (literally), banditos, and other "unsavory" charcters.

Prostitution is legal in Panama and the drug trade is significant due to its proximity to Columbia (smuggling is huge, and it's not difficult to buy an A-47 if you want one). Being such a key port for trade you can find anything there.

It used to be a hotspot of cabarets and theatres. but during a time of upheaval in the 1960s, it declined rapidly, rich merchants moved to the U.S. or U.K. or into gated communities outside the main city. Unemployment has been round 40% for decades and the poverty rate is obscenely high. Unlike most of the country (where violence against tourists is rare), violent crime there is much higher in that region.

It's probably comparable to that part of Tatooine where Luke Skywalker met Han Solo.

ETA: I also wouldn't call it a "party" city, it's more the seedy underbelly that supplies the party cities.

[Siam Sam]

Originally Posted by Rodgers01

Definitely not Macau. I saw more "sin" in the three weeks I spent in Vegas than in the year I spent in Macau. Heck, in the casinos over there they don't even normally serve you alcohol, but push around carts of tea and milk!

You got that right! I was in the Lisboa Casino once in Macau, and the only place you could get a drink was at a small bar counter in the basement. There were also slot machines in the room, but you could not take your drink over to the slots. If you wanted to drink, it had to be at the bar.

[Koxinga]

Could we narrow the definition a bit? Obviously there are horrible shantytowns and areas of high criminality on every continent, but who wants to go there?

Instead, imagine that I am a jaded, eccentric millionaire who has already tasted all the conventional pleasures to be had in my home region, a dread of ennui and perhaps certain, ahem, peccadillos: where would I go?

[Siam Sam]

Originally Posted by Koxinga

Instead, imagine that I am a jaded, eccentric millionaire who has already tasted all the conventional pleasures to be had in my home region, a dread of ennui and perhaps certain, ahem, peccadillos: where would I go?

Again, Phnom Penh. Although I suspect the Lagos nomination above is a good one even though I've never been there.

And probably Pattaya.

[Mr. Moto]

I'll add Cartagena, Colombia to the list - that place is very exotic and parties a lot. I'm sure you can get anything there, but the most I ever asked for was rum and some very, very good coffee.

It is rebounding as a tourist spot. I was there in the mid-1990s, and it still had the air then of an outpost in a very lawless land.

[HeyHomie]

So for the Top 7 we have:

Phnom Penh
Pattaya
Moscow
Tijuana
Amsterdam
Rio de Janeiro
[No clear consensus yet on number 7]

[WormTheRed]

Common! There's no way Amsterdam can be in the top 7 of the most sinful cities in the world?

There have to be some more suitable ones for the top ten.

I mean, people in Amsterdam are nice to you, travel on bicycles and the houses are way cool in their narrowness. And it's pretty kid-friendly too.

Even Reykjavik is more sinful than Amsterdam... we have the strip-joints, heavy (by which I mean HEAVY) boozing and you see gang-fights* in the streets every couple of weeks.

*and by gangs I mean people ganged together fighting. Not gangs like the Crips, Bloods and so forth.

ETA: And I forgot that Icelanders are known for their promiscuity

[Diceman]

You've got to have Las Vegas on the list. Just because of the way it revels in its "Sin City" reputation. The latest ads ("What happens in Vegas...") are basically advertising prostitution and encouraging people to come and cheat on their spouses. The gambling is almost an afterthought.

[LouisB]

Posted by Siam Sam:
Anyone here remember Flashman's escapades in Singapore in Flashman's Lady?

That's one of my favorite Flashman books; I remember it quite well but now I'm gonna have to read it again. What do you think: Did Elspeth get it on with the pirate guy who's name I've forgotten? How about with the French sailor(s)?

[Siam Sam]

Originally Posted by LouisB

That's one of my favorite Flashman books; I remember it quite well but now I'm gonna have to read it again. What do you think: Did Elspeth get it on with the pirate guy who's name I've forgotten? How about with the French sailor(s)?

But of course she did! She must have. I'd be sorely disappointed otherwise. And everything he wrote about James Brooke, the White Rajah, was pretty much true. If I had to pick one person in history I could be, he'd be in the running if it weren't that he probably really did get his balls shot off at an early age. In the link above, it says: "Throughout his life, Brooke's principal emotional bonds were with adolescent boys, while he exhibited a total lack of interest in women." I guess if you've had your package shot cleanly off, that would be true. But exploitwise, he was the original model for ripping yarns, and if he could have been a womanizer to boot, I'd probably choose him hands down.

But back to the topic at hand. I've never been to Amsterdam, but the wife spent a pleasant couple of months there while working on a project she was in charge of. I cannot reconcile her fondness for the city with sin status.

[Mahaloth]

Originally Posted by HeyHomie

So for the Top 7 we have:

Phnom Penh
Pattaya
Moscow
Tijuana
Amsterdam
Rio de Janeiro
[No clear consensus yet on number 7]

I'll be honest with you. If Bangkok isn't on the list, it shouldn't count.

As Conan O'Brien put it, "Thailand is a country where you can have sex with a 14 year old prostitute...if you can convince her to come out of retirement."

Funny. Sad. True.

[DellieM]

Ouyen.
http://www.walkabout.com.au/locations/VICOuyen.shtml

Absolute den of sin. And mallee roots.

(I'll just go now, shall I?)