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  #1  
Old 09-21-2008, 09:32 PM
scm1001 scm1001 is offline
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abducted by gypsies?

I was reading about Adam Smith and noted that he was supposed to have abducted by Gypsies at the age of 4. This idea is a common cultural meme, though I suspect in most cases was a story designed to scare children about strangers and to confirm prejudice about gypsies. But assuming that it indeed happened (e.g in Smith's case) what was the point? Ransom, were the children sold elsewhere (to who?), or were they raised as gypsies because they weren't having enough of their own? Or is the whole idea without any factual basis?
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  #2  
Old 09-22-2008, 12:58 AM
Kyla Kyla is offline
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Thanks to Google and Wikipedia, I found the quote in question in about ten seconds (I love you, internet!).

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Rae
"In his fourth year, while on a visit to his grandfather's house at Strathendry on the banks of the Leven, [Smith] was stolen by a passing band of gypsies, and for a time could not be found. But presently a gentleman arrived who had met a gypsy woman a few miles down the road carrying a child that was crying piteously. Scouts were immediately dispatched in the direction indicated, and they came upon the woman in Leslie wood. As soon as she saw them she threw her burden down and escaped, and the child was brought back to his mother. [Smith] would have made, I fear, a poor gypsy."
Rae 1895, p. 5.

Well, this doesn't really prove much to me, imho. Oooh, farther down, Google came up with this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gavin Kennedy, a professor of History of Economics and blogger
To be brutal, and without detracting from my admiration for him and his writings, if Adam Smith had been ‘stolen by gypsies’ (an anecdote without verification of when he was 4-years old)...
link

Sounds totally apocryphal to me.

You know, I've lived in Eastern Europe in a community with a sizable Roma population and I've heard just about every bad thing you could possibly say about them (ie, when my cat went missing for a couple of weeks, my 12-year-old neighbor told me that the gypsies had eaten him), but I don't think I ever heard that they stole children. I wonder where this meme came from.
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  #3  
Old 09-22-2008, 01:28 AM
Sage Rat Sage Rat is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyla View Post
You know, I've lived in Eastern Europe in a community with a sizable Roma population and I've heard just about every bad thing you could possibly say about them (ie, when my cat went missing for a couple of weeks, my 12-year-old neighbor told me that the gypsies had eaten him), but I don't think I ever heard that they stole children. I wonder where this meme came from.
Not to support the idea that Roma do or did abduct children, but I think it should be noted that your experiences in modern day Europe doesn't necessarily have much to do with what happened a few hundred years ago. As little as 60 years ago, some protestant white people gathered up Roma and killed them indiscriminately. Going by my experience of modern day protestant white people, that wouldn't have been my guess.
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  #4  
Old 09-22-2008, 03:53 AM
Schnitte Schnitte is offline
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This is an excerpt from a 1937 biography of Adam Smith, and as far as I can judge from what is available on Google Books, it seems to take the abduction story for granted: It describes a pathway near Strathenry, where Smith's mother had been born, and says: "It is an open question whether the gypsie who carried off Adam Smith escaped by this path, as the tradition in the district asserts..."

As you say, it's a common racist meme in Europe to link gypsies (which, incidentally, is a not too PC term for a number of unrelated ethnicities) to child trade, but child trafficking did exist in Europe, although probably not to as great an extent as these scary stories imply. What were the motives? I suspect the children were mostly sold as some sort of slaves. In the pre-industrialized era, there were many labor-intensive businesses who were constantly in need of workers, and in any of them, being short in height was of advantage, such as in mines where shafts were often dug as low as possible.
A literary example of this can be found in Suskind's novel Perfume, where the protagonist is sold to a tanner, but of course Perfume is a fictitious story. The historical background, however, is described quite accurately.
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  #5  
Old 09-22-2008, 03:58 AM
Wallenstein Wallenstein is offline
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It's still a persistent meme...

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle4736427.ece
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  #6  
Old 09-22-2008, 04:02 AM
scm1001 scm1001 is offline
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Tx Kyla and the rest for the links,

I must admit I was sceptical of the Adam Smith story, but didnt have access to the original biography.

Also googling gypsy stealing children reveals that the opposite is probably more true - many gypsy children have been institutionalised or adopted out against their parents wishes in some ghastly social engineering experiments in europe.
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  #7  
Old 09-22-2008, 04:16 AM
Nava Nava is offline
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There's more than enough stories of children abductions, nowadays. I'm thinking it's possible that there was an abduction but the woman in question was no Gypsy.
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  #8  
Old 09-22-2008, 07:11 AM
Kal Kal is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wallenstein View Post
Just as a follow up to that, the girl suspected of being Denise Pipitone was found to be the daughter of the Romani woman she was with - link
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  #9  
Old 09-22-2008, 07:16 AM
An Gadaí An Gadaí is offline
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Funnily enough, I've always heard it the other way around.
"Ma bought you off the gypsies when you were a baby" sort of stuff.
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  #10  
Old 09-22-2008, 07:46 AM
Kyla Kyla is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sage Rat View Post
Not to support the idea that Roma do or did abduct children, but I think it should be noted that your experiences in modern day Europe doesn't necessarily have much to do with what happened a few hundred years ago. As little as 60 years ago, some protestant white people gathered up Roma and killed them indiscriminately. Going by my experience of modern day protestant white people, that wouldn't have been my guess.
Yes, but that really did happen. Even today, Eastern and Central Europeans blame EVERYTHING that goes wrong on the gypsies, logical or not. I am not kidding. (A couple years ago, the mayor of Sofia issued a press release saying that whenever something bad happens, people should not immediately blame the Roma, which was pretty radical.) I'm just surprised I never heard that one.
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  #11  
Old 09-22-2008, 09:08 AM
Laalune Laalune is offline
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Here, in Romania, we have a pretty sizable Roma minority, and they do get blamed for everything. Parents still scare their children ("if you don't behave, the gypsies will come and kidnap you!"). It is said that they kidnap children and maim them (they break their legs, arms, burn them, etc.) and use them for begging (to impress people).
I do see lots of gypsies begging with children, but I think that they are their own children.
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  #12  
Old 09-22-2008, 09:37 AM
Annie-Xmas Annie-Xmas is offline
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The meme was used in the book "A Tree Grows in Brooklyn." Franny tells her mother she wants to be a member of the Gypsy Black Hand who play music in the streets for money. Her mother tells her no, they kidnap children. Why they do it is never explained.

Last edited by Annie-Xmas; 09-22-2008 at 09:37 AM..
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  #13  
Old 09-22-2008, 10:17 AM
sailor sailor is offline
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Babies are stolen even today often enough by women who cannot have their own or for whatever other reasons. A couple centuries ago I would expect it to happen just the same plus, at that time having children was your old age pension. Wandering nomads could more easily abduct a child unnoticed than a stable person could. ("Hey, my 3 year old Bobbie just disappeared and you just gave birth to a 3 year old who looks exactly like him! What are the odds?!)

So it is possible that such things happened centuries ago even a bit more frequently than they do now.

At the same time one should not6 rush to conclusions about the Gypsies. As the Spanish saying goes "I only killed a single dog and now everyone is calling me a dog killer". Just because the Gypsies might have kidnapped a baby Smith does not imply they made a habit of it.
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  #14  
Old 09-22-2008, 10:30 AM
Gfactor Gfactor is offline
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While it may have happened, it's unlikely that it was a common thing.

In fact, Gypsy children are the ones that have been systematically abducted:
http://books.google.com/books?id=AQw...ox-a#PPA146,M1

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpag...52C1A9669C8B63

http://switzerland.isyours.com/e/gui...n/jenisch.html
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  #15  
Old 09-22-2008, 11:33 AM
Kal Kal is offline
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In the book, We Are The Romani People, Hancock mentions (in reference to the stealing children myth) the traditional shame of giving birth outside a marriage and claims there are recorded incidences of non-Gypsy women leaving their babies for Romanies to care for. Also mentioned is the romantic idea of running away with the Gypsies.

Later in the same book he mentions the taboo against talking about all matters sexual, up to and including pregnancy. IIRC (can't locate the book at the mo), he states that amongst the more strict Romani groups, it's not unknown for a Romani woman to go through a pregnancy without mentioning it (to the menfolk and outsiders at least) and to then go somewhere private to give birth, before returning to the group with the baby she had 'found'. If accurate (and I have no reason to doubt that could happen, given that even relaxed Romani groups have ideas about sex and morality that make the Pope look like Hugh Hefner), I could imagine that having something to do with the myth.

I think a large part could be to do with the wide variety of colourings within Romani groups - ranging from blond, blue eyes and pale sking through to very, very dark. Although the Romani people originate in India, that was 1000 years ago and there's been a lot of mixing since. Similar to African-Americans in the US, it's very possible for a dark skinned Romani woman to give birth to a child with lighter skin. An outsider looking at them together could think the child didn't belong.
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  #16  
Old 09-22-2008, 05:39 PM
DocCathode DocCathode is offline
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Kal I'm so glad you're back!
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Prof Hubert Farnsworth, Futurama
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  #17  
Old 09-22-2008, 06:58 PM
Kal Kal is offline
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Cheers.

I've long found this one of the more interesting myths involving Romani people. If Gypsies ain't stealing the kids, then you have the age old tradition of non-Gypsy parents frightening their children by threatening to sell them to the Gypsies.*

Anyway, I'm fairly confident in stating that if anyone decided to research it, they'd find fewer verified reports of children having been stolen by Gypsies than there are, I dunno, confirmed cases of kids being raised by wild animals.

You do still get the odd news report where it's suspected that a child has been abducted by Gypsies, sometimes mentioning a sighting of a fair haired child amongst a group of 'em. I think that helps keep the myth alive, really. Consider the Times story upthread: They reported that the wee lass may have been found and that a Gypsy woman charged with abduction. They've not bothered mentioning that, actually, it wasn't the little gal after all. As far as a Times reader would be concerned, the kid was found having been stolen by Gypsies (and even if they printed a follow-up, it would just have been a few column inches, not a nice big headline). There you go, myth confirmed.

To be fair though, the papers seem to have started blaming child abduction on Belgian paedophile gangs. Sign of the times, I suppose.


*Shit, given that and all the stories one reads about kids that get found abandoned in cardboard boxes, I suppose the myth from a Romani perspective should be that Gorjers hate their children so much that they either sell 'em or throw 'em away.
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  #18  
Old 09-22-2008, 07:58 PM
Kyla Kyla is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Laalune View Post
Here, in Romania, we have a pretty sizable Roma minority, and they do get blamed for everything.
Hi! I was in Bucharest this spring, during the NATO summit. I learned an valuable lesson there:

Don't go to cities hosting NATO summits.
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  #19  
Old 09-23-2008, 09:26 AM
Quercus Quercus is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sailor View Post
Babies are stolen even today often enough by women who cannot have their own or for whatever other reasons.
Anybody have any actual statistics on this? I was under the impression that the overwhelming majority of child kidnapping cases involved separated parents and custody battles.
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  #20  
Old 09-23-2008, 10:39 AM
Laalune Laalune is offline
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Originally Posted by Kyla View Post
Hi! I was in Bucharest this spring, during the NATO summit. I learned an valuable lesson there:

Don't go to cities hosting NATO summits.
Sorry, it's like that all the time...
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  #21  
Old 04-03-2011, 07:26 AM
dorothytoto dorothytoto is offline
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Gypsies tried to kidnap my 11 year old son

I was at the South Shore Mall, in Aberdeen, Washington, when Gypsies tried to kidnap my 11 year old son. The oldest man blocked us from getting into the mall from the hallway entrance and the younger man blocked us from getting back out of the entrance. An older woman came from around the corner and tried to lure my son to the parking lot. I was yelling at her, and the security guard heard me, and came to help. The gypsies disappeared in a hurry.

They work in packs, and use a clicking sound to signal one another, while pretending they don't know one another.

Gypsies tried to rob my 77 year old mother last month, when I was at that same South Shore mall with my now 22 year old son, and they took off when they heard me call the mall personnel on my cell phone.

Last edited by dorothytoto; 04-03-2011 at 07:29 AM..
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  #22  
Old 04-03-2011, 07:43 AM
Alessan Alessan is offline
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I hear that if you speak the name of the Virgin Mary, they disappear in a flash of sulfur.
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  #23  
Old 04-03-2011, 09:11 AM
manila manila is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dorothytoto View Post
snip....

They work in packs, and use a clicking sound to signal one another, while pretending they don't know one another.

snip.
damn unfriendly these xhosa!
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  #24  
Old 04-03-2011, 09:15 AM
Tapioca Dextrin Tapioca Dextrin is offline
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mmmm zombie gypsies
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  #25  
Old 04-03-2011, 09:22 AM
Patty O'Furniture Patty O'Furniture is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dorothytoto View Post
I was at the South Shore Mall, in Aberdeen, Washington, when Gypsies tried to kidnap my 11 year old son.
How did you know they were Gypsies? Did they have scarves tied around their heads and wear tambourines on their belts?
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  #26  
Old 04-03-2011, 10:33 PM
Autolycus Autolycus is offline
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A llamia ate my baby
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  #27  
Old 04-03-2011, 10:39 PM
Winnipeg Winnipeg is offline
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My grandmother (Born 1880's, East Anglia, UK) used to straighten out the legs of her younger brothers and later her children (my mother and uncle born in the 1920's) while they slept so they would be able to "run away from the gypsies"

It was a real worry for her.

Last edited by Winnipeg; 04-03-2011 at 10:42 PM..
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  #28  
Old 04-04-2011, 08:14 AM
willthekittensurvive? willthekittensurvive? is offline
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I think I could understand stealing a 11 year old, but what would Gypsies want with with a 77 year old woman?
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  #29  
Old 04-04-2011, 09:14 AM
Nava Nava is offline
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Originally Posted by Autolycus View Post
A llamia ate my baby
Is that what you get when you cross a llama with a lamia?
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  #30  
Old 04-04-2011, 09:25 AM
Darth Panda Darth Panda is offline
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Originally Posted by Alessan View Post
I hear that if you speak the name of the Virgin Mary, they disappear in a flash of sulfur.
Mary was the least popular girl at Roma school...
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  #31  
Old 04-04-2011, 09:38 AM
Bridget Burke Bridget Burke is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dorothytoto View Post
I was at the South Shore Mall, in Aberdeen, Washington, when Gypsies tried to kidnap my 11 year old son. The oldest man blocked us from getting into the mall from the hallway entrance and the younger man blocked us from getting back out of the entrance. An older woman came from around the corner and tried to lure my son to the parking lot. I was yelling at her, and the security guard heard me, and came to help. The gypsies disappeared in a hurry.

They work in packs, and use a clicking sound to signal one another, while pretending they don't know one another.....
What a frightening event. Surely it made the news. Surely you can supply a link to the story.
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  #32  
Old 04-04-2011, 11:02 AM
llcoolbj77 llcoolbj77 is offline
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I think it would be pretty stupid to try and kidnap an 11yo boy. 11yo kids are pretty old, think 5th grade, and can be extremely strong. They could certainly scream for help, and fight back. Not an easy target at all, frankly.

And if they had two men, why would they need the lady in the parking lot to lure the kid away? Why not just grab the kid. And what the hell do you lure an 11yo boy with? Titty magazines or an XBox 360?

The t.v. show, "Criminal Minds," did an episode that involved Gypsies kidnapping children. It was pretty bad!
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  #33  
Old 04-04-2011, 10:15 PM
Anchuldigs Anchuldigs is offline
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True Story: My wife's grandmother actually was abducted by gypsies when she was a baby. She was stolen from the courtyard of her apartment complex in Budapest. Her uncle retrieved her. She was always concerned that he brought back the wrong baby but she's a clone of her brother.
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  #34  
Old 04-05-2011, 01:37 AM
installLSC installLSC is offline
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In Adam Smith's time were they particular about using the term "Gypsies" just to mean the specific ethnic group? Or was it just generically used for any group of migratory people? I've heard the term "gypsies" used to cover Roma, Irish Travellers, migratory homeless people, or just people who tend to be always on the move.
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  #35  
Old 04-05-2011, 01:44 AM
Erdosain Erdosain is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dorothytoto View Post
I was at the South Shore Mall, in Aberdeen, Washington, when Gypsies tried to kidnap my 11 year old son. [snip] ... Gypsies tried to rob my 77 year old mother last month, when I was at that same South Shore mall with my now 22 year old son...
So these Gypsies have been hanging around the South Shore Mall for 11 years now, stealing children and robbing seniors and what not? Someone should really tell them, "You know what guys, you're GYPSIES! Try moving around once in a while. Sheesh! And stop throwing your babies at people while picking their pockets. It's not nice."

Can someone translate the above into secret click language for dorothytoto?

Last edited by Erdosain; 04-05-2011 at 01:47 AM..
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  #36  
Old 04-05-2011, 02:04 AM
Dissonance Dissonance is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erdosain View Post
So these Gypsies have been hanging around the South Shore Mall for 11 years now, stealing children and robbing seniors and what not? Someone should really tell them, "You know what guys, you're GYPSIES! Try moving around once in a while. Sheesh! And stop throwing your babies at people while picking their pockets. It's not nice."

Can someone translate the above into secret click language for dorothytoto?
That's nothing. My 33 year at the time old brother barely escaped being kidnapped, just like my 44 year old sister. My 55 year old uncle was almost robbed, and my 66 year old aunt. It's the Gypsy curse of multiples of 11 I tell ya.
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  #37  
Old 04-05-2011, 04:13 AM
t-bonham@scc.net t-bonham@scc.net is offline
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Originally Posted by Wallenstein View Post
And has been one for a long, long time.

One of the charges against Jews in pograms was that they stole Christian children.

Before that, the Jews mention in the Bible how the Amalekites steal Jewish children.

And the Sabine tribe complained that the men of Rome stole their young women. The Greeks had the same complaint about the Trojans; they started a war over it. The Saxons in England objected to the Vikings doing this.

It's pretty common throughout history to claim that the nearby enemy tribe tries to steal children from our tribe. And for mothers to try to scare their children by saying "if you don't behave, the ____ will get you".
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  #38  
Old 04-05-2011, 07:52 AM
Darth Panda Darth Panda is offline
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Originally Posted by t-bonham@scc.net View Post
And for mothers to try to scare their children by saying "if you don't behave, the ____ will get you".
Tea Party.
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  #39  
Old 04-05-2011, 11:03 AM
Catfood Purrito Catfood Purrito is offline
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Heh...my parents used to threaten to sell me to the Amish.
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  #40  
Old 04-05-2011, 11:24 AM
Leo Bloom Leo Bloom is offline
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See GQ thread, which is running right now, on similar themes re gypsies.
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