Why do black pupils in the US underachieve academically when one factors out poverty?

[alexandra]

[Yes, I said “pupils”. Subject line was getting long.]

In the thread “what are the benchmarks for Black Americans to overcome”, **Chief Pedant **and **brazil84 **seem to argue that the following statistics are most likely due to biological differences between the races:

@Journal of Blacks in Higher Education

But there is a major flaw in the thesis that income differences explain the racial gap. Consider these three observable facts from The College Board’s 2005 data on the SAT:
• Whites from families with incomes of less than $10,000 had a mean SAT score of 993. This is 129 points higher than the national mean for all blacks.
• Whites from families with incomes below $10,000 had a mean SAT test score that was 61 points higher than blacks whose families had incomes of between $80,000 and $100,000.
• Blacks from families with incomes of more than $100,000 had a mean SAT score that was 85 points below the mean score for whites from all income levels, 139 points below the mean score of whites from families at the same income level, and 10 points below the average score of white students from families whose income was less than $10,000.

The Widening Racial Scoring Gap on the SAT College Admissions Test

I would posit that a) this is an insufficient proof: black Americans are an extremely ethnically diverse group, many with a good deal of European ancestry, so of all the world’s black people it is ridiciulous to use them of proof that black people are biologically anything; this statistic is of pupils taking a test generally taken in high school as I understand, so at an age when societal prejudice and cultural attitudes could potentially have had a great effect in determining the student’s educational prowess and exam performance: how much is ‘raw intelligence’ really being measured here?

b)In addition the cite used provides alternative explanations. How compelling are these explanations? It doesn’t provide evidence for its explanations rendering it not terrifically useful, but let’s take a quick look at some:

i.Teachers’ prejudice: If true, this could be tremendously significant. My belief based on the history of racism and its effect on US society today means I think it is, but I’m looking for cites on the subject.

ii.Lack of role models in the family and in society, even in affluent suburbs: I have no idea if the idea that middle-class black families place insignificant emphasis on education is true or not. Hopefully the new President will go some way towards addressing the lack of role models in wider society.

iii.Afrocentric currriculums - I doubt these are a prevalent problem. I could be wrong.

iv.“Black students are rarely recommended for inclusion in gifted education, honors, or Advanced Placement programs” - I am sure this journal is not pulling this stat out of its arse, but offers no studies. If true, again this would be hugely significant. Writing students off early on is not good.

v. The well-documented existence of stereotype threat. An interesting quote from a source I just found:

Cultural variables play a role in determining how group identification affects stereotype threat. Deaux et al. (2007), for example, showed that second- but not first-generation West Indian immigrants in the United States showed poorer performance under stereotype threat. In fact, first-generation immigrants showed some evidence of improved performance under threat, or stereotype lift. Stereotype threat effects emerged in the second-generation as their African-American identity was more strongly emphasized and stereotypical expectations of poor performance were more likely applied to the self.

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c) As I said in the thread, there are statistics in the UK that have contradicted this US statistic, suggesting it is not based in biology. These stats also address students in their mid/late teens, and one shows black African girls performing better than white boys, regardless of income; several stats shows that black African pupils perform better than Afro-Caribbean students who in turn perform better than poor white boys, the latter being the worst-performing group aside from travellers: White boys on free meals fall further behind in GCSEs | GCSEs | The Guardian

[kellner]

There is also the possibility that even God’s own meritocracy has classes, and although more difficult to quantify those would be better variables to factor out than simple income.

[RickJay]

I don’t have a cite at hand but a study was done awhile back showing that in Ontario, white and black students with the same aptitude test results and scholastic histories had remarkably different likelihoods of being put into the “Advanced” versus “General” high school streams (the former being how you got into university, the latter being how you got into Burger King.) Once you were in the General stream in high school, you were cooked. No university for you; MAYBE community college. Moving from G to A was nearly impossible once you were slotted in, since all advanced courses past Grade 9 required advances courses as prerequisites, and anyway you were in the shittiest classes with the shittiest teachers and the dumbest classmates - despite the name, “General” classes were in many, if not most, schools the smaller of the two groups.

That factor alone would have caused black high school students to see a huge performance drop independent of any other variable.

It was a very significant difference and one of the reasons they began destreaming the first year of high school.

[spike404]

Whatever any study or statistical report says, if it is not PC, it will be cast aside as flawed or non-scientific.

[tomndebb]

Whatever any study or statistical report says, if it shows no evidence that blacks are inferior, it will be cast aside as PC.

[magellan01]

@tomndebb

Whatever any study or statistical report says, if it shows no evidence that blacks are inferior, it will be cast aside as PC.

Cute. But the post you parody rings true much, much more than yours.

[Marley23]

@spike404

Whatever any study or statistical report says, if it is not PC, it will be cast aside as flawed or non-scientific.

Of course, the possibility exists that the study is flawed. In science, you don’t get to say “I did a study, here are the numbers, which are absolutely true, you can’t question them.” That’s not how it works. Studies have to be examined to determine flaws and assumptions that can affect the results. If you start from an incorrect or biased premise it’s going to have an impact on the data.

Statistics aside, the notion of black people being simply inferior intellectually doesn’t stand up to common sense.

[Cuckoorex]

@magellan01

Cute. But the post you parody rings true much, much more than yours.

True. I think someone could come in here and say that, on average, black people have darker skin than white people, and someone would claim that it’s just not true, and then they’d post a link to an albino black person and say that it proves that it’s just a racist stereotype to say such things.

[JThunder]

Is it possible that Black people are genetically less gifted when it comes to intelligence? I think so… but I would say the same thing about ANY race, including Asians and Caucasians. It’s possible, and I don’t think it’s “common sense” at all to rule out such a possibility. After all, many physical traits are strongly linked to genetics, so why couldn’t that include brain development?

Unfortunately, it’s virtually impossible to even hint at such a possibility without being labelled a bigot or a racist.

[magellan01]

@Marley23

Statistics aside, the notion of black people being simply inferior intellectually doesn’t stand up to common sense.

I think the way you chose to make your point indicates bias in itself. I think the questions that should be resolved first are:

1. can it be possible that one race has a genetic disposition that might make them perform better at certain tasks (sports)?

2. if this is the case, does it betray common sense to allow that similar inheritable differences might result in a superior ability to perform tasks that involve the brain?

Given the noticeable physical differences, skin color, hair texture, size, eye shape, that are evident among different populations, in addition to a strong tendency for sprinters being of west African descent, marathoners tending strongly to come from eastern Africa, strongmen hailing from Scandavia, it seems that Question 1 has to be answered affirmatively. I personally don’t think we have enough info to answer Question 2, but it seems quite possible that differences in mental aptitude likely exist across populations. For all we know, blacks may be superior in that regard. But they also may be inferior. I think that’s simply a fact. A discomforting one, maybe, but a fact nonetheless.

I’ll also offer that even if it is shown that blacks have a disadvantage when it comes to mental performance, my guess is that the difference would be very small. And when other factors are taken into account, one where me might do well to ignore it when the other factors that go to poor performance are taken into account.

[magellan01]

@JThunder

Is it possible that Black people are genetically less gifted when it comes to intelligence? I think so… but I would say the same thing about ANY race, including Asians and Caucasians. It’s possible, and I don’t think it’s “common sense” at all to rule out such a possibility. After all, many physical traits are strongly linked to genetics, so why couldn’t that include brain development?

Unfortunately, it’s virtually impossible to even hint at such a possibility without being labelled a bigot or a racist.

Very well put.

[Freudian_Slit]

@JThunder

Is it possible that Black people are genetically less gifted when it comes to intelligence? I think so… but I would say the same thing about ANY race, including Asians and Caucasians.

But are academics necessarily the way to test something so broad as intelligence?

[Mosier]

@JThunder

Is it possible that Black people are genetically less gifted when it comes to intelligence? I think so… but I would say the same thing about ANY race, including Asians and Caucasians. It’s possible, and I don’t think it’s “common sense” at all to rule out such a possibility. After all, many physical traits are strongly linked to genetics, so why couldn’t that include brain development?

Unfortunately, it’s virtually impossible to even hint at such a possibility without being labelled a bigot or a racist.

Nobody has called anybody a bigot or racist in this thread. It was progressing quite nicely until what’s-his-name took offense at something that nobody even said.

[JThunder]

@Mosier

Nobody has called anybody a bigot or racist in this thread.

It’s usually just a matter of time.

[Marley23]

@JThunder

It’s possible, and I don’t think it’s “common sense” at all to rule out such a possibility.

I do. Meanwhile I’ll listen to whatever evidence and logic is presented here.

[JThunder]

@Freudian_Slit

But are academics necessarily the way to test something so broad as intelligence?

Not necessarily, nor did I make that claim. If you wish though, we could just as easily posit that blacks – or indeed, any race – are genetically disadvantaged in ways that give them an academic handicap. Alternatively, it’s also possible that they have a genetic advantage that’s masked by societal factors.

No honest person would rule such a possibility out. Unfortunately, race is such a volatile topic that people are bound to take offense no matter how carefully this is explained.

[magellan01]

@Mosier

Nobody has called anybody a bigot or racist in this thread. It was progressing quite nicely until what’s-his-name took offense at something that nobody even said.

Who took offense? In what way?

And I don’t think that 12 posts into one thread discussing a topic that has been explored numerous times qualifies as a reason to disprove or discount the point that was made.

[JThunder]

@Marley23

I do. Meanwhile I’ll listen to whatever evidence and logic is presented here.

On what “common sense” grounds do you rule out even the possibility that blacks (or any race) could have a genetic disadvantage when it comes to intelligence and/or academics?

Lest you misunderstand, I’m NOT arguing that any such genetic link exists. I just don’t think we can rule it out based on “common sense.”

[magellan01]

@Marley23

I do.

Why do you say that? Why might there be differences that are only manifested in a non-mental capacity?

[Jettboy]

I’d almost think that it’s a cultural issue rather than a racial issue. A substantial segment of black society (no, that doesn’t mean ALL blacks) favors a tough, macho social attitude where education is frowned upon, speaking ‘properly’ is frowned upon, and rebellion against authority—particularly ‘white’ authority; school administration, police, social workers, etc.— are encouraged. Even those who reject this ‘gangsta’ social model may be compelled by peer pressure to at least adopt it’s trappings.

Of course, I’m probably just a racist for even suggesting it.