The Spaghetti Westerns really, really suck.

[VunderBob]

I had the opportunity last weekend to watch For a Few Dollars More and The Good, The Bad, And The Ugly. Take away my man card now, because I couldn't handle them for more than ten minutes at a stretch. They sucked, despite the presence of Clint Eastwood my hero.

In no particular order:

• The villains were universally poorly acted, and were one-dimensional cartoon characters.
  
• The sound effects were atrocious (yeah, I know they were made in the late 60s-early 70s);
  
• The plots jumped around so much that I couldn't follow along at times;
  
• People don't die instantly from a gunshot wound.
  
• Shooting from the hip is a waste of good ammo, second only to the the Hollywood machine gun technique of spray and pray.

Thank Og Clint is a much better actor than those wastes of film are worth.

[Robot Arm]

Blasphemer! The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly is a great movie, and the last 20 minutes are a masterpiece of direction. The music when Tuco (Eli Wallach owns that role) is running through the cemetery (The Ecstasy of Gold, Ennio Morricone) is amazing. The way the final shootout is filmed (long shots, to medium, to close-ups, all framed the same (cropping this movie is a crime), different holsters so you can tell the characters apart even when you can only see their hands) is brilliant. The surprise when Blondie knows something that we don't.

If I ever have to show someone how a director's touch can tell a story, that's the movie I'll use.

[Jester]

I think you might've been watching them in the wrong frame of mind. I realize that that's dangerously close to saying "You just don't get it, man," but I really do think it's true in this context.

In my opinion, Morricone wasn't trying to make gritty or realistic Westerns; he was setting out to make myths. Or, at the very least, sweeping epics that in many ways defined what an American myth would look like. So, you have one-dimensional bad guys, and good guys who can instantly kill with their bullets. You've got sweeping, unreal-looking landscapes, and sprawling plots encompassing all sorts of ideas. You have experiences that really don't have any grounding in anything rational, but encompass in many ways the mythic view of the West that's ingrained in all our heads.

(You also have crappy sound effects and occasionally shoddy dubbing, but that may not actively play into the whole "myth" thing as much. Were you watching the Criterion versions? They did a great job of restoring them.)

Basically, you're seeing a different animal than a 3:10 to Yuma or The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance. You're seeing a mythical epic inspired by samurai films, which were themselves inspired by a lot of kabuki tropes (and, oddly enough, early westerns). It's like a big cinematic high-art circle jerk. If that's not your cup of tea, well, that's the way it goes. But accomplishing what they set out to do doesn't make those movies suck.

(Granted, I'm not in any way a film expert, so this could just be talking out of my ass. But man I love those movies.)

[Typo Negative]

Then you probably wouldn't have enjoyed the suck that is Once upon a Time in the West.

[Carson O'Genic]

Originally Posted by Jester

I

(Granted, I'm not in any way a film expert, so this could just be talking out of my ass. But man I love those movies.)

A good summation. Maybe you SHOULD quit your day job.

[Shoeless]

Originally Posted by Robot Arm

cropping this movie is a crime

Amen to that brother. I watched this movie once in pan-and-scan. Never again!

[pepperlandgirl]

Originally Posted by VunderBob

I had the opportunity last weekend to watch For a Few Dollars More and The Good, The Bad, And The Ugly. Take away my man card now, because I couldn't handle them for more than ten minutes at a stretch. They sucked, despite the presence of Clint Eastwood my hero.

In no particular order:
[*]The villains were universally poorly acted, and were one-dimensional cartoon characters.

Mr. Van Cleef is not a poor actor. And the wonderful thing about The Good, The Bad, and the Ugly is that Angel Eyes is really, really bad ass, but Blondie and Tucco really aren't that much better on the moral scale.

[*]The sound effects were atrocious (yeah, I know they were made in the late 60s-early 70s);

I thought the sound effects were pretty effective. I like the way Morricone was able to work with what he had. It's not like he was churning these out in a Hollywood studio.

[*]The plots jumped around so much that I couldn't follow along at times;

Do you think you might have had an easier time with it if you had watched it in one sitting? Morricone wrote surprisingly complicated films, story wise. He expected the audience to follow along and not zone out, even when long stretches of the film are in silence, or the actors speak rapidly. In fact, he makes amazing use of silence, using pure visuals to get across what's happening. Of course, it's tempting to let your mind wander when there's nobody talking, but that's not the film's problem.

[*]People don't die instantly from a gunshot wound.
[*]Shooting from the hip is a waste of good ammo, second only to the the Hollywood machine gun technique of spray and pray.

Dude, they're not documentaries. Shooting from the hip looks cool. And movies take shortcuts and use shorthand all the time.

I would suggestion you try Once Upon a Time in the West or The Great Silence, but I don't think you'd make it through them. That doesn't make them bad films. It just makes them stories.

[Jester]

Originally Posted by Carson O'Genic

A good summation. Maybe you SHOULD quit your day job.

Hah! Thanks, but maybe not, considering that upon closer inspection, I credited the composer for the movies (Morricone) as the director (Leone). Galdurned I-talians, always mixing me up.

[ExTank]

People can certainly die from a single bullet; like restaurants, it's location, location, location.

And hip shooting is an art, that requires a good degree of native talent and considerable practice.

[pepperlandgirl]

Originally Posted by Jester

Hah! Thanks, but maybe not, considering that upon closer inspection, I credited the composer for the movies (Morricone) as the director (Leone). Galdurned I-talians, always mixing me up.

Heh, oops. I just went with what you wrote instead of taking the time to look it up, too. Oh well. Morricone wrote great scores. Did anybody else notice that when he was honored at the Oscars a few years ago, they didn't even mention Once Upon The Time in the West? I thought that was weird.

[jimpatro]

Ooh, sad to hear that. The Good, the Bad and the Ugly is my all time favorite film. The characterization, the epic scope, the sexy cinematography (Delli Colli, my favorite DP), the cool baritone guitar. Wallach steals the show. That graveyard scene as he runs circles searching for the grave! The genius of Sergio Leone.

It's hard for some to get past the overdubbing of the Italian actors but there is a whole lot going on there.

And Once Upon a Time in the West comes pretty close to the grandeur of The Good , the Bad...

[lieu]

Then whatever you do don't check out They Call Me Trinity. You'll be throwing stuff at your TV.

[pepperlandgirl]

Originally Posted by lieu

Then whatever you do don't check out They Call Me Trinity. You'll be throwing stuff at your TV.

Or My Name is Nobody.

[MovieMogul]

Originally Posted by VunderBob

I had the opportunity last weekend to watch For a Few Dollars More and The Good, The Bad, And The Ugly. Take away my man card now, because I couldn't handle them for more than ten minutes at a stretch. They sucked, despite the presence of Clint Eastwood my hero.

In no particular order:

• The villains were universally poorly acted, and were one-dimensional cartoon characters.
  
• The sound effects were atrocious (yeah, I know they were made in the late 60s-early 70s);
  
• The plots jumped around so much that I couldn't follow along at times;
  
• People don't die instantly from a gunshot wound.
  
• Shooting from the hip is a waste of good ammo, second only to the the Hollywood machine gun technique of spray and pray.

Next thing you're going to tell me is that people don't talk the way Shakespeare and Tennessee Williams and David Mamet talk!

They are verbal stylists. Leone is a visual and temporal stylist. The pauses, the spaces, the music, the landscapes, the pacing, the framing, the action--They're all handled masterfully. If you want to see a documentary on the old west, definitely go elsewhere.

[mlees]

The sound effect used for pistol fire definately sounds different than in an American made western to me.

Was this merely what the Italian (or Spanish?) used for their films, or was this sound unique to the Leone stuff?

[Cervaise]

Originally Posted by pepperlandgirl

Or My Name is Nobody.

Or Django.

[Cisco]

Originally Posted by VunderBob

I had the opportunity last weekend to watch For a Few Dollars More and The Good, The Bad, And The Ugly. Take away my man card now, because I couldn't handle them for more than ten minutes at a stretch. They sucked

May god have mercy upon your soul. The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly is one of the best movies ever made, and I say that as a person who has spent the last 10+ years seeking out and watching "good" movies. I admit that the middle drags a bit, but how you can not be intrigued by the beginning and absolutely captivated by the end, I'll never know. The last ~30 minutes of that movie absolutely hypnotizes me.

[Hockey Monkey]

Originally Posted by spooje

Then you probably wouldn't have enjoyed the suck that is Once upon a Time in the West.

That's my favorite Spaghetti Western of them all. I revel in it's badness.

[Rocketeer]

I first began to love TGBU when I realized that it's really an extremely straight-faced comedy.

[lissener]

I know "you don't get it" is verboten around here, but the OP so clearly made absolutely no effort to understand what makes these movies what they are, that I'm gonna go ahead and play that card. Point being, lots of filmmakers have artistic goals that are completely perpendicular to the unexamined expectations of the OP, and unless you make an effort to understand the discrepancy between your expectations and the artwork that's in front of you, then you will always be disappointed.

[Ronald C. Semone]

And you have to place the films in context. The ads for the first of them, A Fistful of Dollars, was "This is the first movie of its kind; it will not be the last." And that was true! The film marked a sea change in westerns. I saw this movie when it first came out in a college town movie theater; the audience went nuts. It was all the campus was talking about the next day. FWIW, I loved the first two movies in the series: A Fistful of Dollars and A Few Dollars More, but I hated The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly. I thought it was dragged out too much especially the three-man shoot-out.

[An Gadaí]

Originally Posted by lissener

I know "you don't get it" is verboten around here, but the OP so clearly made absolutely no effort to understand what makes these movies what they are, that I'm gonna go ahead and play that card. Point being, lots of filmmakers have artistic goals that are completely perpendicular to the unexamined expectations of the OP, and unless you make an effort to understand the discrepancy between your expectations and the artwork that's in front of you, then you will always be disappointed.

This post should be made a Cafe Society sticky.

[j666]

Originally Posted by pepperlandgirl

And movies take shortcuts and use shorthand all the time.

Not just movies. Doesn't that define "art", deciding which elements of the story to present, and how to present them?

There are these things called metaphors and symbolism ...

Now, I don't like Westerns, I don't like violence and gore, and I particularly hate glorification of the American Civil War (and I hate spitting chaw even more), but even I appreciate those movies.

The score, the grit, the humor, the (moral) realism, and the resolved moral ambiguity (and it is resolved) ...

They are just really good movies.

That being said, I've always hated ...
[do I need a spoiler for a movie this old? I'll play it safe ...]

SPOILER:

... the scene where they slash open the bag of gold with the shovel. I know, metaphor, symbolism ... but every time, I think "Now how do you plan to carry it out?"

But I will never forgive Eastwood and MacLaine for the ending of Two Mules for Sister Sara.

[pepperlandgirl]

Originally Posted by j666

Now, I don't like Westerns, I don't like violence and gore, and I particularly hate glorification of the American Civil War (and I hate spitting chaw even more), but even I appreciate those movies.

The score, the grit, the humor, the (moral) realism, and the resolved moral ambiguity (and it is resolved) ...

They are just really good movies.

I love Westerns, violence, and I don't have any feelings about the glorification of the Civil War, but you pinpointed exactly why I love Italian westerns.

[R. P. McMurphy]

The OP has to be a whoosh.

The Spaghetti Westerns were phonomenal. They changed movie making. I remember when I first saw "The Good The Bad and The Ugly" in the theater. I was chuckling at the irony, the humor and brilliance of the acting and directing. Unfortunately, there were too few of us that were "getting" it. When they focused in on the boots that were worn and ripped you knew that the director was spitting in the face of the stupid John Wayne, costummed, conventional Westerns that were idiotic beyond belief. The Spaghetti Westerns were doing it the way it should have always been done.

The villains were universally poorly acted, and were one-dimensional cartoon characters.

Yea, let's see you come up with a scene in Western where a guy is sitting in a bath tub and comes up with the line, "One bastard goes out and another bastard comes in."

Eastwood nailed it. Explain the subtlety of a main character known as the "Man With No Name" or for lack identity is known as "Blondie".

Watch the movies again. If you still don't get it watch them again and again. They are brilliant.

[China Guy]

Not to hijack, but I leved these until I saw Yojimbo the first time. Kurosawa and Toshiro Mifune are much better IMHO.

Try a chili/sushi night with a double bill of the goo the bad and thr ugly combined with Yojimbo & let me know the result.

That final show down fight scene in Yojimbo....

[j666]

Originally Posted by pepperlandgirl

I love Westerns, violence, and I don't have any feelings about the glorification of the Civil War, but you pinpointed exactly why I love Italian westerns.

But tell the truth ... how did you feel about the shovel and the gold? Because a surprising number of people will admit they agree with me.

[lissener]

Originally Posted by China Guy

Not to hijack, but I leved these until I saw Yojimbo the first time. Kurosawa and Toshiro Mifune are much better IMHO.

Try a chili/sushi night with a double bill of the goo the bad and thr ugly combined with Yojimbo & let me know the result.

That final show down fight scene in Yojimbo....

Kurosawa's favorite director was John Ford.

Leone's favorite director was John Ford.

Most of their movies were in large part tributes to the Westerns of John Ford.

[guizot]

Originally Posted by lissener

Point being, lots of filmmakers have artistic goals that are completely perpendicular to the unexamined expectations of the OP, and unless you make an effort to understand the discrepancy between your expectations and the artwork that's in front of you, then you will always be disappointed.

I agree, and lissener has hit the nail on the head as usual. Some people care a lot about the acting, or verisimilitude. That wasn't the point of the Spaghetti Westerns.

I rarely care about these things. I couldn't give much more than a damn who acts in a movie, nor how they act. (But if the narrative is good, I might give it a pass, for passing my time without getting me bored.)

My favorite director was Robert Bresson, who after a few films, never used professional actors, and insisted that his actors not "emote." His work was all direction and cinematography.

[MovieMogul]

Originally Posted by An Gadaí

This post should be made a Cafe Society sticky.

Shhhhh. Just because he's right, let's not start planting ideas in his head!

[lissener]

Originally Posted by guizot

My favorite director was Robert Bresson, who after a few films, never used professional actors, and insisted that his actors not "emote." His work was all direction and cinematography.

He called them "models," IIRC. Not actors.

Anyway, this thread puts me in mind of that moment in The Rocky Horror Picture Show, when Dr. Frankfenfurter has unveiled Rocky, and asks Janet what she thinks. Janet replies something about not liking too many muscles, and Dr. Frankenfurter bristles, and responds: "I didn't make him for YOU!"

Today in the store we were playing The Golden Voyage of Sinbad, one of the greatest masterpieces of fantasy art of the 20th Century, on the store widescreen. A 12- or 13-year-old boy stopped and watched for a moment, then proclaimed, "This is terrible! Look how fake it looks!"

He's chained in the basement.

[Lust4Life]

Originally Posted by VunderBob

[*]Shooting from the hip is a waste of good ammo, second only to the the Hollywood machine gun technique of spray and pray.[/list]
Thank Og Clint is a much better actor than those wastes of film are worth.

I can shoot from the hip and hit what I'm aiming at as can quite a number of my friends/ex colleagues.

[gonzomax]

Originally Posted by Lust4Life

I can shoot from the hip and hit what I'm aiming at as can quite a number of my friends/ex colleagues.

Ex colleagues?? How many of them did you shoot?

[MadTheSwine]

Originally Posted by Cisco

May god have mercy upon your soul. The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly is one of the best movies ever made. I admit that the middle drags a bit, but how you can not be intrigued by the beginning and absolutely captivated by the end, I'll never know. The last ~30 minutes of that movie absolutely hypnotizes me.

One of my favorites and the ending is the best movie scene ever filmed, IMO.

Originally Posted by j666

But tell the truth ... how did you feel about the shovel and the gold? Because a surprising number of people will admit they agree with me.

I don't agree.I think they had another bag nearby(mebbe in the saddlebag..or use the saddlebag itself),or could have found one easily.

[lobotomyboy63]

Originally Posted by j666

But tell the truth ... how did you feel about the shovel and the gold? Because a surprising number of people will admit they agree with me.

I figured they had other saddle bags they could use.

Best part of Good/Bad/Ugly is that bloated trumpet solo when they're in the three-way duel.

[jimpatro]

As I've stated before, I love Leone's films. TGBU especially. But I do always cringe at breaking open the bag of gold.

[jimpatro]

And to me, the final shootout is just pure ecstacy, brilliance beyond compare.

[Harmonious Discord]

Spaghetti westerns are foreign made films, and not ones made by American studios. Watch a real spaghetti western and you'll cry for death in five minutes.

[pepperlandgirl]

Originally Posted by Harmonious Discord

Spaghetti westerns are foreign made films, and not ones made by American studios. Watch a real spaghetti western and you'll cry for death in five minutes.

What's an example of a real spaghetti western?

[Equipoise]

Once Upon A Time in the West is as far from suckitude as you could possibly get. It's brilliant, every second of every minute, genius. I'd loved it for years on video, but I got to see it on the big screen for the first time when it played at a revival theater here a couple of weeks ago. I was in freakin' awe!

I wish I could see the movies the OP's talking about in the theater. I haven't seen them since I was a kid, liked 'em ok, but I think they need the big screen and 100% attention.

[Equipoise]

Originally Posted by Rocketeer

I first began to love TGBU when I realized that it's really an extremely straight-faced comedy.

I just read back through and saw this post. I can't speak for TGBU, but I know what you must be talking about. Once Upon A Time In The West is a movie that, if you haven't seen for a while, the parts that stick with you most are the shocking, dramatic parts (Henry Fonda and the little boy, for instance), but while watching a new print on the big screen, I was struck by how funny it is. Not that it's a comedy, but humorous moments abound. The cowboy who's standing there waiting for the train, looking all badass, when water starts dripping from the ceiling onto his bald head. He just calmly puts on his hat, waits a while for there to build up a good bit of water on his brim, then takes it off and drinks it.

Or Jack Elam, also waiting for the train bringing Harmonica (Charles Bronson), having trouble with a fly that keeps buzzing around his face, but he tries to get rid of it by facial expressions and blowing air out of his mouth. It's a scene that seems to last several minutes, and it's funny, but you keep thinking, damn man, just use your hand and wave it off! But then he traps it in his gun barrel. There's humor and tension at the same time. It's scenes like that that you have have patience for, and just appreciate for what Leone is doing. He's not furthering the plot much. These people don't have long to live. It's just there for you to appreciate and have fun with.

I had also forgotten Jason Robard's low-key humor, a very dry humor. When you first see him, he's just shot the men who were taking him to jail (off screen, but you hear what just happened, though it doesn't become immediately clear what did just happen) and is seemingly menacing a bar full of people without even pulling a gun. The tension level is sky high, but yet he's very easy-going and subtly witty, and continues to be that way throughout most of the film. Later, he gets caught and carted off to jail and you think, aw damn. But then he just shows up again and the plot goes on, and no one comments about it. You realize that this harkens back to when you first saw him, and while you feel bad for the lawmen who are just doing their job, it's darkly funny too.

Leone definitely had a gift. Oh what I wouldn't give to see a new print of Once Upon A Time in America on the big screen.

[Cisco]

Originally Posted by lissener

Kurosawa's favorite director was John Ford.

Leone's favorite director was John Ford.

Orson Welles' favorite direct was John Ford, too. I'm seeing a pattern here.

Originally Posted by Harmonious Discord

Spaghetti westerns are foreign made films, and not ones made by American studios. Watch a real spaghetti western and you'll cry for death in five minutes.

Yes, UA put up some money for The Good the Bad and the Ugly but it was a foreign film. Why is it not a "real" spaghetti western?

[Tamerlane]

Originally Posted by Equipoise

The cowboy who's standing there waiting for the train, looking all badass, when water starts dripping from the ceiling onto his bald head. He just calmly puts on his hat, waits a while for there to build up a good bit of water on his brim, then takes it off and drinks it.

Or Jack Elam, also waiting for the train bringing Harmonica (Charles Bronson),

One thing I love about this opening scene, is that it silently develops these characters, lavishing all this time and camera work on them, yet in the end they are just disposable thugs. It's the same in most or all of the Leone westerns - minor characters are creatively drawn as individuals, even if their fate is nothing more than to get quickly gunned down in a way that are almost incidental to or plays only a tiny role in the plot ( "If you're going to shoot, shoot - don't talk." ).

Needless to say I'm yet another huge fan of the Eastwood trio and Once Upon a Time in the West.

[Invisible Chimp]

I love the Clint Eastwood trilogy, especially GBU" Still about Leone, I liked his "Once Upon a Time in America," which is not a Spaghetti Western, much more than "Once Upon a Time in the West."

[lissener]

Originally Posted by Harmonious Discord

Spaghetti westerns are foreign made films, and not ones made by American studios. Watch a real spaghetti western and you'll cry for death in five minutes.

Am I the only one still waiting for clarification of this nonsensical statement?

[pepperlandgirl]

Originally Posted by lissener

Am I the only one still waiting for clarification of this nonsensical statement?

No.

[Equipoise]

Originally Posted by Tamerlane

One thing I love about this opening scene, is that it silently develops these characters, lavishing all this time and camera work on them, yet in the end they are just disposable thugs. It's the same in most or all of the Leone westerns - minor characters are creatively drawn as individuals, even if their fate is nothing more than to get quickly gunned down in a way that are almost incidental to or plays only a tiny role in the plot

Exactly, very well-put. I'm not sure things like this can be appreciated watching on a small screen for the first time. It's understandable that some people would want to use the fast-forward on their remote. I once tried to get my dad, who ONLY ever watched westerns or war movies, to watch this. He hated it, just hated it. I don't think we made it even halfway through before he made me turn it off.

Needless to say, I never recommended The Assassination of Jesse James by the Coward Robert Ford to him.

[Tapioca Dextrin]

Originally Posted by lissener

Am I the only one still waiting for clarification of this nonsensical statement?

I believe it refers to "Bring me the Head of Alfredo Garcia"

[Vox Imperatoris]

I thought they were alright, and I also liked High Noon (which, obviously is not a spaghetti western, but still), even though most of the people I watched it with hated it because they thought it was boring and slow. I loved the real-time aspect of it. I should probably watch the trilogy again.

Valete,
Vox Imperatoris

[lissener]

Originally Posted by Tapioca Dextrin

I believe it refers to "Bring me the Head of Alfredo Garcia"

Which is one of my lifetime topten movies, so . . . I still require clarification.