I pit Obama and what he is doing with the census

[Clothahump]

Less than three weeks in office and Obama is already screwing us over.

President Obama has decided to bring the U.S. Census Bureau under White House jurisdiction, a move that incensed House Republicans, who fired off a blistering letter to him Thursday, calling it "outrageous and unprecedented" and a "blatant partisan and political maneuver."

The move would shift the chain of command with the bureau and the Commerce Department, where the bureau currently resides. It comes after the Congressional Black Caucus, National Association of Latino Elected and Appointed Officials and other groups expressed displeasure with Obama's nominee for Commerce secretary, Republican Sen. Judd Gregg of New Hampshire.

http://www.govexec.com/story_page.cf...dcn=todaysnews

The audacity of this blatant attempt to take over the census so that it can be manipulated in secrecy is worse than anything the libs ever claimed Bush did.

If the census remains in Commerce, its procedures and guidelines are open for review by Congress. By pulling it into the White House, Obama has insured that there will be no accountability, no review and no accuracy.

Here ya go, folks. You got what you voted for.

[Marley23]

Originally Posted by Clothahump

Here ya go, folks. You got what you voted for.

That's a nice change from what we've seen in recent years.

[Sorry - don't want to go there, but you left it wide open.]

The Census Bureau should be transparent. I'm not sure why it's part of the Commerce Department, but I guess it has to be somewhere. I'd like to know if it's true that minority voters have been historically undercounted, however. If true, that needs to be fixed.

[Bricker]

Originally Posted by Clothahump

Less than three weeks in office and Obama is already screwing us over.

http://www.govexec.com/story_page.cf...dcn=todaysnews

The audacity of this blatant attempt to take over the census so that it can be manipulated in secrecy is worse than anything the libs ever claimed Bush did.

If the census remains in Commerce, its procedures and guidelines are open for review by Congress. By pulling it into the White House, Obama has insured that there will be no accountability, no review and no accuracy.

Here ya go, folks. You got what you voted for.

Why do you assume there will be no accuracy?

[Bootis]

Oh man! If the next census isn't accurate I'm moving to somewhere else with real family values, and a dependable census.

[Lobohan]

Originally Posted by Clothahump

The audacity of this blatant attempt to take over the census so that it can be manipulated in secrecy is worse than anything the libs ever claimed Bush did.

Yeah, moving a program to a different department is way worse than causing the deaths of perhaps a couple hundred thousand innocent people.

You do a disservice to the wise turtle who's name you drag through the mud. Also you're a fucking loon.

[Richard Parker]

Since Humpy won't return, maybe we can turn this into a productive discussion. Are there any plausible reasons why the Commerce Department would be more open to accountability, review, and accuracy than the White House?

[Marley23]

Originally Posted by Richard Parker

Are there any plausible reasons why the Commerce Department would be more open to accountability, review, and accuracy than the White House?

His contention was that Commerce has to answer to Congress and the White House doesn't.

[Euphonious Polemic]

Originally Posted by Clothahump

The audacity of this blatant attempt to take over the census so that it can be manipulated in secrecy is worse than anything the libs ever claimed Bush did.

I just wanted to quote this for the pure laugh value.

Cite that the move from commerce to the white house is so that "it can be manipulated in secrecy"? Or is this simply paranoid delusional ramblings?

And I claim that Bush presided over an unprecedented increase in your national debt, to over 10 Trillion dollars. That's pretty bad, don'tcha think. (or to re-phrase, "don'tcha think?")

[Muffin]

Originally Posted by Clothahump

If the census remains in Commerce, its procedures and guidelines are open for review by Congress. By pulling it into the White House, Obama has insured that there will be no accountability, no review and no accuracy.

Here ya go, folks. You got what you voted for.

From the article you cited:

A White House spokesman confirmed Thursday that Obama plans to work closely with the bureau, which will remain within the Commerce Department.

Cute conspiracy theory, but you should have read a little further down the article you cited.

[GuanoLad]

Isn't the Census just a database of statistics? Useful and constantly accessed statistics, but not really anything to get too excitable about, I would've thought.

[Richard Parker]

Originally Posted by Marley23

His contention was that Commerce has to answer to Congress and the White House doesn't.

I have to admit that I don't know what that means. Do you? The staffers working on the census can be called in congressional hearings whether they work in the White House or some other building.

[Leaper]

Originally Posted by GuanoLad

Isn't the Census just a database of statistics? Useful and constantly accessed statistics, but not really anything to get too excitable about, I would've thought.

One of the claims is that he can use this power to do a sort of unoverseeable gerrymandering, as far as I can tell.

[Marley23]

Originally Posted by Richard Parker

I have to admit that I don't know what that means. Do you?

No, I don't. I guess the difference would be an oversight committee, but for practical purposes I don't know why it matters. The rest of the OP is so over the top ludicrous that I'm not sure Clothahump knows either. If there's a real issue with undercounting, the president SHOULD get more closely involved.

[RickJay]

Originally Posted by Clothahump

The audacity of this blatant attempt to take over the census so that it can be manipulated in secrecy is worse than anything the libs ever claimed Bush did.

While there's an argument to be made about Obama making a poor move on this, this statement is either really fucking stupid or you're a troll.

Take your pick.

[Leaper]

Originally Posted by Clothahump

The audacity of this blatant attempt to take over the census so that it can be manipulated in secrecy is worse than anything the libs ever claimed Bush did.

Worse than anything Bush actually did? I suppose that depends on your partisan leanings.

Worse than anything liberals ever claimed Bush did? No matter what side of the political aisle you're on, I think you should admit that's rather hard to believe.

[Little Nemo]

The audacity of this blatant attempt to take over the census so that it can be manipulated in secrecy is worse than anything the libs ever claimed Bush did.

If Obama's reason for doing this was so he could conceal the evidence that he was a serial killer, it still wouldn't be worse than some of the things Bush did.

[GuanoLad]

I think the biggest stupidity is the assumption that manipulation of statistics to suit an agenda is the motivation behind this.

Statistics are manipulated by default, that's their role. No matter who's in charge, they get bent into any shape required of them.

I can't see that this is any different to how it's always been.

[Tuckerfan]

Originally Posted by RickJay

While there's an argument to be made about Obama making a poor move on this, this statement is either really fucking stupid or you're a troll.

Take your pick.

Why can't it be both? That seems more logical to me.

[smiling bandit]

Originally Posted by GuanoLad

I think the biggest stupidity is the assumption that manipulation of statistics to suit an agenda is the motivation behind this.

Statistics are manipulated by default, that's their role. No matter who's in charge, they get bent into any shape required of them.

I can't see that this is any different to how it's always been.

I suppose that's an argument, but it's a bad one. The Commerce department generally has a reputation for honesty and independance. But thre's simply no reason at all for Obama to have anything to do with this, any more than if he suddenly announced that the White House was going to oversee tax returns this year. It injects politics into a carefully balanced situation and can do no good.

[Euphonious Polemic]

Originally Posted by smiling bandit

It injects politics into a carefully balanced situation and can do no good.

Well, it's already done some good. It's made the vein on Clothahump's left temple throb like a Keith Moon drum solo.

And that's good enough for me.

[Richard Parker]

Originally Posted by smiling bandit

The Commerce department generally has a reputation for honesty and independance.

Is that true? I thought the Commerce department had a reputation of being a spot used for political patronage where the President's appointees promote various business interests in exchange for campaign donations. Did you mean the Census Bureau specifically?

Originally Posted by smiling bandit

But thre's simply no reason at all for Obama to have anything to do with this, any more than if he suddenly announced that the White House was going to oversee tax returns this year. It injects politics into a carefully balanced situation and can do no good.

Suppose for a moment that there are problems with the census--problems that need serious attention. Isn't it the role of the President to fix problems in the executive branch? Why is it safe to assume that there is no legitimate reason for White House involvement?

[GuanoLad]

Originally Posted by smiling bandit

I suppose that's an argument, but it's a bad one. The Commerce department generally has a reputation for honesty and independance.

Ah. I assumed that there was some controversy that motivated the change. Fair enough, then, it does seem a strange development.

[Revtim]

Clothahump, dude, you're gonna have to pace yourself. If you get this worked up over a bureaucratic thing like this in the 1st month of Obama's term, you're gonna be in bad shape in four or maybe even eight years.

[Muffin]

Originally Posted by Revtim

Clothahump, dude, you're gonna have to pace yourself. If you get this worked up over a bureaucratic thing like this in the 1st month of Obama's term, you're gonna be in bad shape in four or maybe even eight years.

Or twelve or sixteen -- 'cause Obama is going to deal with that pesky two term issue.

[furt]

Originally Posted by Richard Parker

Suppose for a moment that there are problems with the census--problems that need serious attention.

Suppose -- as is actually the case -- that there are no problems. Why is this suddenly being fooled with?

[Richard Parker]

Originally Posted by furt

Suppose -- as is actually the case -- that there are no problems. Why is this suddenly being fooled with?

Well, if the propriety of Obama's involvement turns on the existence of problems with the census, don't you think it would be important to establish that fact one way or the other before decrying his involvement?

ETA:

Uh oh. The Field Data Collection Automation (FDCA) PDAs that are supposed to replace the traditional pen and paper method used by census-takers are not working properly. Thus, the census "dress rehearsal" this spring has been delayed by a month as the agency scurries to come up with backup plans. The FDCA program that was meant to save taxpayers $1 billion now has these delays sending the cost $600 million to as much as $2 billion.

Carlos M. Gutierrez, Secretary of the U.S. Department of Commerce, testified at the U.S. Senate Committee on Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs hearing on the status of the 2010 Census.

Gutierrez stated: "We have discovered serious problems with the FDCA program and I am personally involved in bringing key issues to the surface and developing a way forward. In short, the current situation is unacceptable."

The GAO published a report on these Census problems and made an announcement designating the 2010 Census Project as "High Risk". The GAO warned the Census bureau last year about slow and inconsistent data transmission from last year's field testing. Guess they should have heeded that warning, right?

Cite

[Kozmik]

Originally Posted by Clothahump

The audacity of this blatant attempt to take over the census so that it can be manipulated in secrecy is worse than anything the libs ever claimed Bush did.

You're comparing three months to eight years?!

[Frostillicus]

So, anyone know what right-wing site Clothahumpster took these paranoid ramblings from?

[elucidator]

Just speculating into the void, here....but perhaps it is a gesture towards more transparency as a means of generating more trust. There is a sense abroad that minorities are underrepresented census-wise. I have no idea, but its "out there".

I suspect that Obama believes that the census is almost certainly kosher in its intentions....that is, it is not deliberately manipulated by the Forces of Darkness to their ends. But he cannot help but be mindful that if such manipulation were possible and concealable....it would be very much to the advantage of those self-same FoD.

So, he takes responsibility, the accountability is his. He's going to say "I have watched this carefully. I can say to you as a minority person that every fair effort has been made, this census is as fair and accurate as can be reasonably expected."

Building trust in government amongst those most inclined to mistrust government is good civics.

If that's what he's up to. Yer guess, good as mine.

[Jack Batty]

You people will be laughing out the other sides of your mouths when the next census comes back 80% black, 19% white, 1% other. Then where will you be, huh?

[Rhubarb]

To be perfectly fair, had GeeDubya made this move with exactly the same stated intentions, my first thought would have been "What the hell is Dick Cheney up to now?"

But since the shoe is on the other hand, we should ask ourselves "Could this move be interpreted in a negative light by ultra-conservative reactionary paranoid wingnuts? And more importantly, why are these shoes on my hands?"

[Richard Parker]

As of April of 2008, the 2010 census was in serious trouble. (Thanks Humpy for raising my awareness of this issue.)

Absent evidence that these problems have been fixed, increased involvement from the man ultimately in charge of making the census run properly seems warranted. That said, I think a healthy amount of skepticism and demands for transparency are warranted, given the role the census plays in our political process.

[BrainGlutton]

Originally Posted by GuanoLad

Isn't the Census just a database of statistics? Useful and constantly accessed statistics, but not really anything to get too excitable about, I would've thought.

It is the basis for apportionment of House districts and state legislative districts, and one basis for the allocation of federal and state aid to cities and counties.

[BrainGlutton]

Originally Posted by Frostillicus

So, anyone know what right-wing site Clothahumpster took these paranoid ramblings from?

The OP link is from what appears to be a site for federal agencies and employees.

[elucidator]

Originally Posted by Rhubarb

... why are these shoes on my hands?"

Digital shoes.

[Euphonious Polemic]

I think I've got it...After three beers and sinus medication, I'm starting to think a bit like Clothahump.

Why indeed would Obama want control over the census? Think about it... Why would he want information about the state of the population going back for years and years....

There's only one answer here people:

Reparations!

[Richard Parker]

Yeah, luci, that's better than what I had.

SPOILER:

I think you've put your finger on the soul of the issue.

[Boyo Jim]

Originally Posted by Leaper

One of the claims is that he can use this power to do a sort of unoverseeable gerrymandering, as far as I can tell.

Yes, this plan is so much more evil than filling up the Justice Department Division of Civil Rights with Republican political hacks with law degrees from out of the backs of magazines, and setting them to work rubber-stamping the redistricting plans of Republican state legislatures.

[Leaper]

For those asking why Republicans think this is such a big deal, the link in my first post here should be educational.

[Lightnin']

Originally Posted by Clothahump

The audacity of this blatant attempt to take over the census so that it can be manipulated in secrecy is worse than anything the libs ever claimed Bush did.

If we're "libs", that makes you guys "cons". Somehow, that seems appropriate.

I'm so freakin' tired of "liberal" somehow being a dirty word. Here's a dirty word for you: FUCK YOU.

Get past your partisan politics and get back to rebuilding America.

[jayjay]

Originally Posted by Bricker

Why do you assume there will be no accuracy?

Because he's freakin' Clothahump! Does he ever have a reason for being a kneejerk neanderthal who was more than happy to swallow every steaming load Bush dropped but somehow suddenly becomes a government watchdog now that a Democratic president is in office?

[Princhester]

Originally Posted by Euphonious Polemic

Well, it's already done some good. It's made the vein on Clothahump's left temple throb like a Keith Moon drum solo.

The fact that liberals breathe, nay exist is sufficient to cause this.

[Diogenes the Cynic]

You know, the Commerce Department is already under White House jurisdiction. Take a fucking civics class, dude.

[Sampiro]

Originally Posted by Diogenes the Cynic

You know, the Commerce Department is already under White House jurisdiction. Take a fucking civics class, dude.

That's what I was about to mention after reading the OP. Uh, Clotha, you know that Obama's not just like serving as a reference for these 'Cabinet' people don't you? They kinda sorta work directly for him.

My hope is that they will do SOMETHING about that damned accursed Census web site. I was a GovDocs librarian for years and I still use it frequently, and for those who've never been there-

Okay, if you want to find out the population of Vincennes, Indiana*, it's pretty easy (once you figure out there's an extra click or two that doesn't really need to be there). If you want to find out how many Asians or people over 80 are in Vincennes, not that terribly difficult. Wanna find out stuff like "How many gas pumps are in Vincennes?" or movie screens or same sex couples or unwed mothers or whatever? ALL of that information is on there, but I'm convinced they intentionally go to lengths to make it as difficult to access as possible.

Things that you can actually learn from the Census website:

---Average price of lettuce/average salary of a schoolteacher or maid/miles of railroad track/number of mules per state in any year 1878-present (Statistical Abstracts)

---The number of women who give birth each year by age (i.e. wanna know how many 11 year olds gave birth? Or 25 year olds, or 52 year olds? It's there)

---The number of grandparents raising their grandchildren in a particular zip code

---Property sales and average house values by block

---The number of television sets sold in 1952

---The number of self-identifying same sex couples in a town or county (or, in a populous enough place, by block) in 2000

---The price of wool or iron or clothing or average income by colony/state from 17th century to the present

---The number of movie screens in a city

ALL of this stuff is on there. You can even make all manner of charts comparing it this data between Vincennes Indiana/Nacogdoches County, Texas/metro Baltimore/Ohio/the Nation, but it's damned near impossible to figure out and once you do, it changes. (Hint: Summary Files is an important concept to know, and it's one that I don't think most people who haven't had specific Census training would know to look up.) Anyway, hopefully they'll make it a lot more user friendly, as it's probably the single greatest statistical resource on the net for most academic disciplines or even professional needs.

Here's another neat little thing that can be gotten with a single link: ever wonder how common your surname is or how many Americans share it? The top 90,000 are on here. Example: Obama's not in the top 90,000, but his mother's maiden name of Dunham is the 1,330th most common; Bush is 304, Eisenhower is 16,178th.


*A city I chose at random- nothing for or against it, don't recall ever having gone there.

[tomndebb]

Originally Posted by Diogenes the Cynic

You know, the Commerce Department is already under White House jurisdiction. Take a fucking civics class, dude.

Without the invective, this was my first thought on reading the OP.

Commerce is a Cabinet position, under the direct supervision of the president, (with a Secretary appointed with the Advice and Consent of the Senate), so there is neither more nor less superviion by Congress, regardless of Presidential oversight.

Now, I agree that a statement indicating more White House direct involvement following protests by some special interests that they did not like the President's choice for Secretary gives off an odor of political games. However, until Gregg attempts to make a ruling on procedure that is overridden by Obama, (or, worse, Emanuel), that cannot be demonstrated to be for cause, the OP is clearly just foaming over with partisan hatred.

[The Second Stone]

Originally Posted by Clothahump

The audacity of this blatant attempt to take over the census so that it can be manipulated in secrecy is worse than anything the libs ever claimed Bush did.

If the census remains in Commerce, its procedures and guidelines are open for review by Congress. By pulling it into the White House, Obama has insured that there will be no accountability, no review and no accuracy.

Here ya go, folks. You got what you voted for.

I vote this post as the best SDMB post ever. It shows the utter futility of fighting ignorance.

Now in all fairness to the claim that it is worse than anything the "libs" ever claimed Bush did, I will point out that changing the cabinet department that the Census reports to is not worse than everything the "libs" claimed Bush ever did combined, but only worse than any one.

Katrina isn't something Bush did: he only played guitar while New Orleans drowned, or so the "libs" claim

Killing upwards of half a million Iraqis isn't something Bush did, he only ordered an invasion, soldiers and "terraists" did the killing

Putting us in the crapper for 10 trillion dollars in his last months in office isn't something Bush did, Wall Street did it.

Bush didn't torture anyone, soldiers and CIA did.

Not paying attention to the "Bin Ladin intent on attacking US" memo is something Bush, by definition didn't do.

Ya know, Bush did commute Libby, and that by itself is a bigger travesty than the Census thing. It's about the only thing Bush affirmative did himself. Uncle Dick did the rest.

[Ale]

I'm torn; I can't make up my mind whether Clothahump is an embarrassment to the SDMB or a valuable asset in the way he makes every single other member look like a frikkin' genius.

[Cervaise]

He's both! He's a dessert topping and a drooling subhuman.

[Sophistry and Illusion]

Does Clothahump ever return to his Pit threads, or is he always like a senile old dog who drops a steaming turd and then wanders off, leaving it for everyone else to bury?

[42fish]

Originally Posted by Cervaise

He's both! He's a dessert topping and a drooling subhuman.

Damn. I was hoping for a floor wax and a drooling subhuman.

PS: Anyone else suspect that Clothahump noticed the recent bashings of Rand Rover and decided to remind us what real idiocy looks like?