Guitar 101: Body vs. Pickups; Good vs. Great - Some Insight

Okay - I saw this clipon YouTube and thought it could be interesting to breakdown and discuss (well, that and I just finished a HUGE load of work over the past couple of weeks and can use a mental break ;)).

The clip: a guy from Guitar World magazine trying to sell a new line of DiMarzio PAF replicas. PAF is the nickname given to the first Gibson Humbucking pickups - PAF is short for “patent applied for” since Gibson was patenting some aspect of their design (trivia nit: when they got the patent and began putting the Patent # on stickers on the back of the pickups -well, they used the patent number for a vibrato device they had also patented…:rolleyes:). Anyway, this fella compares and contrasts the new pickups in a newer Les Paul Historic Reissue with original PAFs in an original '59 Gibson sunburst Les Paul - the Stradivarius of electric guitars. That guitar (often referred to as a “'burst”) is worth a few hundred thousand dollars.

NOTE: this thread is NOT going to be about “older/vintage” guitars vs. “new” guitars. There is a lot of debate about whether older/vintage guitars used better wood, aged better and have “mojo” etc. I have played old dogs and new stars - to me, a good guitar is a good guitar regardless of when built. Ah - but I love this video because it shows how a good guitar compares to a GREAT guitar, regardless of how old either is. Since that can be subtle thing and it feels like this video makes it jump out (to me) I thought it would be worth exploring.

So - this is more-than-beginner, train-your-ears kinda stuff. Or, put it another way, this is pretentious cork-sniffing ;). Give it a listen and you can weigh in…

(Geek terminology: the real '59 will be referred to as the '59; the Historic Reissue will be referred to as the “R9” - Reissue of a '59; this is the common shorthand amongst Gibson geeks…)

Okay - watch the video just to take it in, then read this, then watch it again (sorry for being a pain). Here’s a few things I want to point out:

  • Playing both unplugged: Wow, just very clear. Two key things to listen for - 1) yes the original '59 is much louder as the guy points out. Okay - cool; I happen to prefer louder unplugged guitars, too. BUT - the loudness is NO indication of how the guitar will sound plugged in. It’s helpful (IMHO) ONLY because, well, it’s louder - so you can hear more of the guitar’s sound without straining and sticking your ear close to the guitar - duh! Far more important is 2) Can you hear how much more harmonically rich the real '59 is vs. the R9?? I mean, it is not even close - and has very little to do with the loudness of either guitar. Can you hear how all the notes come together with more 3-D depth and clarity on the '59? How pinched and bright the R9 sounds in comparison? How you want to let the '59 ring out longer - NOT because it is louder and will sustain longer, but because, well, the notes just sound better all together - something about “the system” of that guitar reinforces some harmonics and dampens others to result in a tone where combos of notes work together in a better way. The R9 sounds like an unplugged solidbody guitar; the '59 sounds like an acoustic being played in a room down the hall. This, my friends, is all the difference in the world when it comes to hearing a truly great guitar.

(by the way, I just saw a video of Paul Reed Smith discussing his guitars, and I heard him say it in a way I think makes the most sense: “The guitar is the singer and the pickup is the microphone.” So true - and the '59 is clearly a better singer.)

Now - let’s take a look at the plugged-in comparisons. The guy compares bridge pickups, then neck pickups, then both. Each has a different key thing to point out.

  • Bridge pickups: Jeez, could it be any more clear how the '59 just sounds flat-out better?? Done, end of story, stick a fork in it!! You hear the '59 and automatically think “oooo, Jimmy Page!” whereas with the other one you hear it and think “okay, good classic rock tone, not bad” - subtle, but obvious. Okay, but let’s break that down a bit - listen to both. Can you hear where the R9 has a more compressed tone that is a bit less pleasing to your ears? It sounds a bit more like an angry wasp - the crunch of the tone is much more nasal and in your face - imagine it at high volume; you might wince a bit. Listen to the '59 - there is none of that angry wasp in the tone, nothing about the tone sounds like it would hurt your ears at high volume. As a player, I hear a lot of openness in the space - and I hear a responsiveness that makes me want to play that guitar.

  • Neck pickups: honestly? I don’t hear much difference. That’s one of the reasons I like this video - it isn’t just about trashing a new guitar and gushing over a holy grail. In this case, they sound reasonably similar - and that’s cool. The '59 has a bit more “tube-iness” to its sound, I suppose. My one comment is that I don’t think the guy doing the demo spends much time playing in the neck position - when you solo a lot on the neck, you tend to stretch out notes more because you get more interesting stuff happening - think Clapton on Sunshine of Your Love or Santana - this guy’s playing doesn’t bring that out in the notes…

  • Both pickups: again, I like this video because there is something interesting to point out. I happen to much prefer the original '59’s tone - richer, fuller, all the good stuff. Seems pretty clear to me. Ah - but really listen to the '59 vs. the R9 - the thing that is missing from the R9 is **The Sizzle™ **- when you hear the '59, you get a little layer, like frosting on a cake, of old-electronics-coursing-with-energy “sizzle.” That, my friends, is the indescribable “something” that many folks look to 'bursts to deliver that sets them apart. “What?!” you say? “So they want their guitar to sound like a old movie gizmo that the mad scientist used to bring the monster to life?!” Well, not exactly - that sizzle is just another layer of tone, but, like with a good tube amp sitting on it’s sweet spot (see here), it is very touch dynamic. When you play notes straight up, you minimize the sizzle - but if you are Billy Gibbons of ZZ Top, say, and you “pinch the note” where you pick it and brush the string with your thumb to bring out the harmonics - that sizzle really jumps out. So the sizzle does a great job of “selling”/ making more obvious the variations in your picking style and attack - so they jump out. That means it is that much more responsive to you - as a player that is a great thing.

There is more - but since each of the comparisons (Unplugged, Bridge, Neck and Both) had something different and interesting to point out, I thought I would just share and leave it for now. Again - please note that the R9 is an excellent, well-made guitar. This is like comparing a $100 bottle of recent Cabernet with a $3,000 bottle of '61 Lafite-Rothschild - both are premium, but one is just ridiculous. Now - you may thing the one is ridiculous because of its transcendence, or you may think it’s ridiculous simply because of the price.

What do you think? Does this help?

I can’t watch this today, but I’m really looking forward to checking it out tomorrow. I know I’ll get more out of it because of your comments. Thanks for starting this thread.

I’m curious about what would happen (besides much wailing and gnashing of teeth) if they put the R9 pickups in the '59 and the '59 pickups in the R9. Has anybody done a comparison like that?

Haven’t seen the video, btw. I can’t at work.

Oh, sure - Les Paul geeks do stuff like that all the time; if you hang out at the Les Paul Forum, there are threads regularly where various combinations of new/old guitars and new factory/new boutique and vintage pickups are swapped and compared. It’s like I quoted from PRS in my OP - the guitar is the singer and the pickup is the mic. You can get a lesser guitar to sound better with good pickups - maybe there’ll be a bit more sizzle to the note, say - but ultimately it is the guitar that shapes the fundamental tone…

bump - sorry for the ego-bump; just hate to see the geekery fade…

If this is just too, well, geeky - let me know…

Can’t play the clip just now (at work), well, I could with the sound off but that’d be a bit pointless. Maybe tomorrow.

But you have reminded me to take the Les Paul out of the car boot when I get home.

Yes - taking the guitar out of the trunk is a good thing for a variety of reasons I am sure!

OK, I watched this clip a couple of times. My impressions, including some responses to WordMan’s analysis:

Unplugged. The guy says the real 59 is louder, “woodier”, and has more sustain… That seems insufficient. The old guitar actually has the sustain and harmonics that I associate with an acoustic guitar. I have heard cheap acoustic guitars that don’t sound as good. If there is any truth to the notion that the unplugged sound of an electric guitar influences or predicts the amplified sound, then the 59 should blow the 59R away.

Bridge pickup. OK. Side by side, I hear the difference and I prefer the real 59. He doesn’t mention where he has the tone knob set, which I would like to know because neither of the guitars sounds as trebly as I’m used to hearing from LPs on the bridge pickup. I think he may have rolled off a bit of treble.

Neck pickup. Very close, as WordMan says. I think, if I were pressed to make a choice, that the old guitar sounds slightly better. I wish that the player had a better sense of what the bridge pickup is for. I can’t tell how good either one is when all he plays is fast stuff. Would it have killed him to do a piece of the solo to Sunshine or SWLABR?

Both pickups. This was the biggest difference to my ears. Maybe because this is where I tend to play Gibsons. I could hear more harmonics, and there was so much sustain he needed to suppress it somewhat. There was a sonic difference there that I could actually exploit.

Anyway, the comparison leaves me thinking a few things. What is this difference worth? How much of this difference, if any, could I appreciate outside the realm of a side by side comparison? How much of this difference would actually reach my ears in a concert setting or within a recording of a band? I know that my tone knowledge is not great and my ears are uneducated, but what I hear here is two guitars which sound great, one of which is a little nicer. They are close enough, to my ears, that either one in the hands of a good player would make music that I would want to hear.

It’s easier to decide to pick up and play it if it’s propped up in the corner of the sitting room (lounge?) rather than first getting it out of a locked case, in a locked car (ahem) trunk in a locked garage.

I’m thinking ~15 minutes of Bach, then later some Thin Lizzy.

I’ll try to catch the video over the weekend.

Cool write-up; thanks for showing a geeky brother a hand!

As for the quoted passage above - well, that’s the Mastercard “Priceless” question, innit? Is the '61 Lafite-Rothschild really worth 30x more (I have no idea how much that vintage actually goes for - I am just being illustrative) than an already-expensive, newer Cab because it has more “terroir, with a complex berry finish”? Well - to some people it is, I guess.

Some points:

  • I find the cork-sniffing subtlety to be a non-issue in a band practice or a performance setting. I simply don’t notice that stuff when I am trying to gel with my bandmates or entertain a crowd.

  • I love the cork-sniffing stuff when I am playing alone - unplugged or amp’d. As I have stated in the past, I find those subtleties help me play better. They lay down signposts for what I should work on technique-wise because they sound MUCH better when I play more cleanly.

  • My homemade Parts-o-Caster Tele which I have all of $800 in sounds very rich unplugged (different than this '59 because Fender-types have bolt-on necks, etc…) and gets a great sizzle when I want to dial it in…the point is that you don’t HAVE to aspire to a bazillion-dollar holy grail to get this type of tone. I look at this as trying on the $3,000 Italian suit first so you can then tryout the few-hundred-buck suits and see which comes closest!! :wink:

May I suggest a guitar version of Nigel Tufnel’s infamous Mozart/Bach “Moch” piece “Lick My Love Pump”?

:smiley:

I picked up a new (to me) Epi 335 Deluxe this week and I had gone back and forth against the $2500 Gibson 335, comparing playability, tone and trying to weight each relative to their prices.

This video really demonstrates the difference between good & great. But as you said, playability and tone are to found in guitars at all levels and price points. I’m a big proponent of acoustic tone, but on electric, I pretty much just play archtops and hollowbodies through clean amps (doing jazz and bluesy stuff) and I’m definitely a neophyte regarding amped up rock tones.

Great video, thanks for posting.

This reminds me of the scene in Spinal Tap where Nigel Tufnel is showing off his guitar collection and has this sweet LP and raves about the sustain as if you can tell by just looking at it. Many a truth is said in jest…I would bet that if you show a flash card of a Les Paul to a guitarist, the first word they come up with is “sustain”.

Well, there is a fine line between clever and stupid, you know!

And **picker **- I hear you about Epi Dots - don’t you have one, Crotalus? The kid across the street has one and I was impressed by it. By the same token, I had an '84 Custom Shop ES-335 in Antique Violin that was just sublime - I was simply unworthy of a semi-hollow at the time and sold it to get something I would play more frequently…

I have an Epi Dot that I am very happy with. Every time I play it in public, someone, whether a band-mate or an audience member, comments on how good it sounds. I know it has better tone than my beloved Strat Plus, but I am so used to the feel and the geography of the Strat that I’m still drawn to it. I’m still working on mastering the controls and feel of the new Tele, built with a pickup and body from WordMan. It has even better tone than the Epiphone.

It strikes me that the video makes the wrong comparison, if the goal of it is to sell the new DiMarzio PAF replicas. Wouldn’t have been more effective to compare the DiMarzios in a '59 reissue to a '59 reissue with Gibson’s pickups in it? Unless, of course, there is no discernible difference.

It also occurs to me that my analysis leaves out the effect of playing a guitar with ideal tone upon the player. Maybe Jimmy Page and Mark Knopfler actually play better in the studio when they use their vintage LPs than when they use a less pricey LP like the ones they probably take on the road.

Yeah, it’s like when you’re with a beautiful woman - you bring your “A” game. :slight_smile:

Actually, there ought to be a kind of Godwin’s Law regarding guitar talk, that when you compare it to a woman, you automatically lose the thread. :o

…or if you find yourself lapsing into Spinal Tap cliche’s - and then quoting Spinal Tap to cover up the fact you did so spontaneously and now need to re-establish your rock cred!! :wink:

You know, **An Arky **- I hear you about the whole “guitar as woman” thing being silly and played out - but rock and blues guitar is clearly all about the sexuality and stuff - it is obvious and crass, but “the pose” with a rock guitar isn’t exactly subtle in its phallic nature, is it?

**Crotalus **- spot on. They really should’ve focused on comparing vs. the Gibson pickups of today - but I doubt there would be much different between those (called “Burstbuckers” - but Gibson has a few different pickups in that category, like Classic '57’s) and the DiMarzio’s…

It surprises me somewhat that they would choose a comparison they were pretty much bound to lose. Maybe Larry DiMarzio just wanted his '59 on youtube again.

…or they could find a '59 that has been through its share of pickup swaps so the original solder joints are broken* and drop the DiMarzio’s into that guitar, so you can reduce the impact of the guitar’s materials and construction in checking out the pickups. Who knows how those new DM’s would sound in an original '59??

*most 'bursts have been through a pickup swap or two, so most have broken solder joints. But if unbroken, they must stay that way for collectibility/value’s sake - burst geeks look for that stuff and will pay a premium for it…