Guitarists: The Importance of Wood in a Solidbody Electric - Geekery Link

Cafe Society
1

Well, the other guitar threads have been getting some traction so I thought I would toss this log on the fire.

Background - if you are a guitar geek, or had your eyes roll up in the back of your head reading one of the other threads on guitars, you may have come across this topic: There is an ongoing, at times flame-evoking, debate in guitar circles about how important the body wood is in shaping the tone of a solidbody electric tone. Some folks believe it is central to shaping the ultimate tone you hear; others feel it is one factor along with many other important factors; and some don’t think it really matters - the guitar’s pickups and electronics are the primary shapers of tone.

This topic carries a whole lot of baggage with it - one big hot button is that the now-highly-desirable, super-expensive vintage guitars from the 50’s and early 60’s were made with “old wood” - i.e., natural-growth, long-kiln-dried mahogany, ash, alder, maple, etc. that simply isn’t available in the quantities today that a mass-production guitar manufacturer would need. So when someone says “vintage guitars sound better because of the magic of Old Wood™” a lot of folks want to throw things at them - these statements are often made by a weekend warrior who just spent $30,000 on a questionably-vintage Strat (“Custom Color?” Riiiiight…) and wants to feel good about his purchase. Heck, I think wood IS central and I own a vintage guitar - and I want to throw things at them at times.

The other bit debate topic is “the best way to test the tone of a solidbody electric is by playing it unplugged” - oh, the fur that flies over that one. “My guitar is so resonant - it chimes like a piano when I play it unplugged” vs. “you don’t gig with it unplugged - play it through the amp if you want to check it out…”

You get the idea. :rolleyes:

Anyway, along comes this thread on The Gear Page (link to Gear Page thread…). It was started by Terry McInturff (link to his website) a highly-respected maker of handmade solidbody electrics who happens to frequent the Gear Page. It is a great exploration of the importance of wood in a guitar and Terry does a great job of explaining it. Bottom line - the unplugged tone DOES matter - but not just because it is loud. A guitar that is loud unplugged can help you hear whether it is tonally balanced *better *- but it could be loud and not tonally balanced, or quiet unplugged, but balanced. The point is to listen for tonal balance in the unplugged guitar and you will have a sense of the *potential *of the guitar - if it sounds balanced unplugged, you will be able to get a lot more out of it as you build the rest of your rig (but that of course implies that you work to ensure that the rest of your rig exploits the guitar’s tone…)

Check out the thread starting at post #9 - a guy asks a classic question and Terry totally guru’s out all over it in a very nice, insightful and helpful way. He basically diagnoses the guy’s guitar issues and educates us about how wood + guitar design influences tone - and how issues with either can lead to dead notes, unbalanced tone, etc…

Hope you guys find this as interesting as I did…

WordMan,
SDMB, Guitar Geek Division

2

Still reading through all of it, but I’d like to go ahead and chime in about the debate and what I believe.

I know that the wood selection for the body matters. I don’t think there is any getting around that. However I think with today’s mass produced guitars there is something that matters even more.

I have a SRV signature Strat. It’s a very nice strat with a good tone that leans into that Vaughan sound with the help of the Texas Special pickups. The trouble with it is, that there are so many coats of polyurethane on it that the tone is muted somewhat. I’ve played the same exact guitar that had been sanded down to the bare wood and there was a huge difference in tone. The sound coming out of that amp was much preferred over the gloss finish of the one that I own.

Just another monkey wrench for the works perhaps. I’ve been debating a while now about taking some 80 grit to my axe now for awhile.

3

Oh yeah - the whole “poly vs. nitro” finish wars is another Great Debate in the world of guitars. Nitro (nitrocellulose lacquer - the stuff used on fine furniture, violins, etc. along with all older guitars and now just higher-end guitars) is definitely a different beast vs. a poly coat. Some folks claim that it is the difference in the chemicals and some folks in the thickness of the finish - i.e., a thin-coat poly can let a guitar resonate as much as lacquer (which goes on thin anyway)…the fact that nitro is porous and poly is not is also a big bone of contention - there is thinking that a wood guitar can “breathe” more with a nitro finish - i.e., dry out a bit over time, but stay in sync with the surrounding temp and humidity in a good way.

Regardless - when poly is glopped on - yeah, it can really deaden a tone…

By the way - if a guitar is supposed to have a nitro finish - don’t always believe it! For most of Fender’s “nitro” guitars, they actually put down a thin layer of poly FIRST, and then put down a coat of nitro. I think this is because it streamlines the production process - you don’t have to rub down poly between coats or something - but it totally defeats any benefit you may be looking for from nitro…

4

So what do they say about oil finishes? My guitar was ordered with a tung oil finish. It’s very smooth, but you can still feel a bit of wood grain. I love the feel of it. To be honest, I forgot what type of wood it its (I want to say alder. It’s certainly gotten darker over the years)

5

Hmm - no idea. But I suspect it would be considered a good thing, provided it protected the wood from drying out and was thin enough to allow the natural tone-resonating qualities of the wood to come through.

6

I’m no expert but unless your Eddie VanHalen and you put together your own, some guitars have it, some don’t. Money is still the biggest factor in getting a good axe. You run across a cheap one every once in while that moans like a whore and I’ve played a Strat that sounded like it was purchased at Sears and Roebuck. All the little goodies make the difference too. You know what I’m talking about, pegs and pickups etc… Just like a car, you can build one that will tear up everything in sight. All you need is some money and a good mechanic. I’m pretty sure that’s what Jeff Beck had in mind when he came up the quitar shop. He has both, hot rods and the wildest axes I’ve ever heard. I love that guy, one of the few people who I would ask for their autograph.

7

I hope I didn’t kill this thread with my ramblings.

8

Dude - don’t sweat it; it is a very geeky thread. I will bump it on Monday likely, though, to give a few other die-hard git-geeks a chance to see it…

And sure, I completely agree with your comment “some have it and some don’t” - the question is why. A common argument is that those that “have it” are more likely to have good wood for the body - and the thread I link to on the Gear Page discusses that in detail. That’s all…

fwiw, I have put a guitar together; in my experience the wood absolutely does matter for delivering a good-sounding balanced tone - but that there is no set “perfect recipe” for finding that kind of good wood. Some people want to rely on a short-hand set of criteria - e.g., “old wood = good” but that simply isn’t true - factors like that can increase the likelihood that it may sound good, but is by no means a sure thing…

9

Well, I’ve got a beat to crap 1971 mahogany SG, if someone wants to re-neck and re-everything else using that “old wood”. Bidding begins at $10000.

10

Ah but what about your new Schecter? Any chance that the low-sustaining notes on your B string are related to what McInturff discusses?

11

How could I say? I find the woods talk interesting, up to a point – there doesn’t seem to be a reasonable way to draw the discussion to a conclusion for a given instrument. I’ll grant that wood must have an enormous impact on guitar tone (how could it not?), but there’s so much wild conjecture about it that I don’t really see a way to get my head around what practical advice you can come away with for someone looking at, or for, or to buy an instrument. At that point it comes down to what sounds good when you pick it up, which was already the case sans the wood geekery.

12

Sorry, I wasn’t clear - I wasn’t asking you to delve into the misty realm of guitar-wood geekery. But Terry’s test is a simple one and could be revealing.

Here 's my thinking - you are welcome to completely ignore it:

  • You love how the Tele sets up, but you note that the Schecter didn’t intonate well and had some dead (or at least low-sustain) notes up the neck.

  • I begin thinking: “hmm, wonder if he is thinking if he should return it? If it doesn’t set up well, that might be an option he is considering”

  • So - first: if you are NOT thinking about that - we’re done. Be happy. But if you ARE thinking about that - well maybe Terry’s test can help you make that decision.

  • Try what he says - clip something to the headstock to changes its weight and vibrations - do the dead notes open up? If so, the that tells you that the woods of the neck and guitar are resonating out of phase and cancelling out some notes. That is going to limit how much you can get out of the guitar. If you are not okay with that scenario, it may make sense to consider returning it. Again - it’s not about “old wood” or anything magic - it is a simple check to see how the guitar’s materials behave.

  • If the notes sound pretty much the same with the added weight on the headstock, then it is likely not a wood issue. You should be able to take it back to GC, show them what the issue is and let them take a crack at it. If they can improve it - I mean check the neck relief, action and intonation with your preferred set of strings - yay. If they can’t - again, it may make sense to consider return it.

You got it for a good price and knew exactly what you were getting so it’s not like you were expecting it to be Clapton’s Blackie. I am just thinking out loud…

13

Damn squeegee ! I thought my comments were harsh. Wood does matter. I’m not a master guitar craftsman but be sure if mahogany and woods like it didn’t make a difference they would be using plastics or composites by now. Much more durable than wood and better able to hold a finish. You can make a composite that is the finish and if you scratched it you could just sand it and all would be good. I don’t believe players like SRV play axes that have thrashed finishes just because it looks cool its because to fix it would take away from the body of your axe. Again, like education, I have not attended any big schools where I learn things nor have I spoken to Jeff Beck or SRV. So take my post for what its worth. Not a lot I’ll admit.

P.S. I feel a great passion for playing guitar even though I pretty much suck at it.

14

Sorry, I wasn’t trying to be dismissive at all of the thought that wood matters. Really. However, rereading my posts, I can see where one might gather that impression. So, please let me clarify: I find some of the discussion more than a bit arcane, and a little frustrating in that regard – I’m sure there’s much to be learned, but there’s also more than a little “magical” thinking when it comes to what constitutes and important component of tone. The guitar is right there at the store – go pick it up and see how it sounds! Anything beyond that strikes me as puffery, but that’s me. If there’s wisdom to be had examining these things, then that’s completely worth the time, but perhaps not for me.

I am more than a bit dismissive of folks that would pay multi-tens-of-thousands for a plank of wood with fixtures on it, but that’s just my sensibility. If someone feels they’re getting an amazing instrument that way, then I’m happy for them, and its really none of my business anyway.

And I really do have that '71 SG. I would let it go for considerably less than 10k however; its not in particularly stellar shape.

15

No I’m thinking exactly that. If the guitar won’t intonate well, and has dead zones, I have 19 days to return it, so I am carefully sizing my options here.

No, all of that makes good sense. I must have missed the Fat Finger in your linked discussion, I didn’t realize there was something there that could be tested. Good idea, and it seems like its worth a shot. I’ll take a look as soon as I can figure out what to clamp onto the axe.

16

This is the absolute truth of the matter. Not to pat myself on the back but I’ve said it here before, you have to play it before you buy it. Just like a car, you know when you get behind the wheel if it’s going to be your car or someone else’s. Ten dollars or ten thousand it doesn’t make a difference. You know when it’s right.

17

Right. I’ll play devil’s advocate and point out that it takes time to really “know” an instrument, but in the playing is the truth of the matter.

You know what, re-rereading my posts, I’d like to clarify more:

Of Course Wood Matters!.

Yes, absolutely! Da! Oui! Jawohl! I am absolutely not dismissing that this is true. I feel as though I shat on WordMan’s thread if someone came away with the impression that I felt otherwise. I do not. My post about the 10k SG was meant to be light, not mockery.

18

The Steinberger Bass was graphite and carbon fibre, well, still is for all I know. They were such a radically different design that it is difficult to say how much of their sound is because of the materials and how much because of the (lack of) wood.

Solely my opinion, but I think there has to be an element of the tone of the wood even in a solid body. If you switched the pick-ups on a Les Paul and a Tele, would the Tele sound like an LP, and vice-versa? I just don’t think so.

There are a few guitars made of stone out there - I think one of the first was in Steve Howe’s collection. There’s a YouTube video of somebody showing one, but no one plays a note on it. Wonder what that would sound like?

I know with classicals, even the same design will produce a noticable difference between Brasilian and Indian rosewood for the back and sides…

19

WordMan: Terry says to clamp a C clamp on the head stock. Is it cheating to put some light cloth over the clamp points? I really don’t want to scar the finish on that guitar.

20

Absolutely not - it’s about the added weight/mass at the end of the neck, NOT the wood to wood contact.

We’re all good here. **squeegee ** - what you are frustrated by is exactly what I appreciate Terry’s thread on TGP about: it takes something cute and wine-wordy and breaks it down. Your notes either sustain at that point on the neck or they don’t . Adding weight to the resonating end of a piece of wood either affects those notes or they don’t…