I think Liberal’s recent Pitting of tomndebb is a perfect example of why these types of threads work better in the Pit than ATMB. Liberal had complaints about an action of tomndebb’s, and in a perfect world they would civilly discuss them in ATMB until mutual understanding was reached. In reality, complaint threads like this are often going to get contentious and disputes are going to crop up. Closing them the second a squabble breaks out seems like it will just frustrate people without resolving anything. Let people tell the complainer he’s a useless [del]motherfucker[/del] butthole, let Der Trihs argue against the trolling charges Liberal, let people speak freely about stuff that bugs them until it’s worked out. It’s not like we’ve historically had a problem with the staff being constantly abused in the Pit. Probably 99% of mod Pittings end up with a sizeable fraction of the posters mocking the OP.
Given that the Pit is now pretty much just a grumpy MPSIMS with a dash of political outrage theatre (:(), it’s not like such threads would get in the way of anything. I think both the Pit and the board as a whole would be better off if this rule was changed back to the way it was.
I’m not so sure. Before the rule changed there seemed to be a constant daily diet in the Pit of threads with titles such as Fuck You, <insert mod name>, Why Was My Thread Closed by <insert epithet> <insert mod name>, etc. Many of them grew very heated in very short space. None of that heat generated much light. I remember thinking how the hell the mods managed to get any modding tasks done if they spent most of their time in slanging matches in the Pit. (Clearly that’s an exaggeration but it certainly felt like that sometimes.)
I recall modding on a board where any criticism or discussion of mod decisions at all was forbidden and grounds for banning. Sweet for the mods, not so much for the members. I think the Dope has the balance about right.
I don’t know if the OP has the best answer, but I am really fucking tired of the same cavalcade of losers whinging and bitching about the same topics, or about “capricious moderation” ad nauseum for years. It’s like they’re idiot-savants - they consider themselves “the smartest folks in the room” and yet somehow can’t figure out how to navigate to another message board. And I’m not talking about complaining in general; of course not. No organization should fear criticism - but there are a group of people, we all know who they are, who are just giant, capering and strutting timbertools who I wish would just shut the fuck up.
It’s not like there aren’t other boards they can post on. The OP of the closed thread in fact was a poster early on on one of the new boards, where he took a few opportunities to flame the SDMB Moderation to show what a, um, brave soul he was. I’m sure his helper monkey can direct him right back there if he asks nicely. “MOJO - SAVE ME FROM THE SDMB!” :rolleyes:
Given my personal opinion that the Board really doesn’t need Teh Pit, I see no reason to allow abuse of mods there. Just as AYSO doesn’t allow abuse of its volunteer referees and coaches, the place should be careful about allowing abuse of its volunteer staff.
And there are always other places to vent your spleen over the perceived unfairness of the staff here.
This is part of the problem. Mods can call them giant, capering and strutting timbertools who they wish would just shut the fuck up. but they cannot call them that in return. It creates an asymmetry. If it is decided that such asymmetry is desirable, then so be it, but I don’t think it is fitting for a board all about smarts and truth.
I don’t think the wish of the OP will be granted even though it makes some sense, so here goes a compromise. How about we take those back to the pit but with the rule that posts that are pure insults without content are not valid. So “you are a fucking idiot” is not good while “you are a fucking idiot for this that and the other” is ok.
Do we still have a prohibition on fuck, cunt, and whatever else it was? Maybe Pit without those words would be the way to go.
You may be making a broader point here, but just to be clear, **Una **is not a moderator, or a member of the staff. She’s got the title because she writes staff reports and helps Cecil with columns.
My suggestion is actually only minimally related to whether or not the staff need to be protected from impolite criticism and insult. Even if one were to keep the rule that you can’t insult staff for actions they take as staff, I still think such threads make more sense in the Pit. Not because I want to verbally abuse the staff (I’m fairly sure I never have), but because I think it would be better for the board if such discussions weren’t as constrained as they currently are.
We’ve tried it with criticisms of staff in the Pit, and it was NOT pleasant.
I can only speak for myself. I can often see both sides of an issue, and in many situations, I could rule one way or t’other. If I make a ruling, and someone questions it calmly and rationally, I will listen, and I will consider, and I might reverse my decision.
On the other hand, if I get called a motherfuckin’ idiot for making such a decision, I pay no attention whatsoever to the complaint. That’s just blowing hot air, and life is too short for me to bother to read such posts, let alone stop to consider whether there’s any merit in their complaint.
So, frankly, I think that a spirit of calm and civil discussion is better for the boards. But I guess it depends on what purpose you think criticism of mod decisions serves. IF the purpose is to potentially get a reversal of a decision, then the discussion belongs in ATMB. IF the purpose is just to hurl invective and to froth at the mouth, yell and scream and pound the table so that the poster vents (with no practical outcome other than the venting), then the Pit is there.
Dex: Let me see if I understand what you are saying. It’s okay to post in the Pit about a mod if you don’t want a response?
Even if not, I think a compromise would be to create a single thread in the pit where posters can gripe about the mods. Since the complaints are usually the same things over and over, no matter which mod is being discussed, it would seem to make sense.
The first post could say that none of the mods will ever respond to you in this thread, and that, if you have legitimate problems, bring then up civily in ATMB.
I personally (generally) stay away from any threads pitting a poster, so it really doesn’t affect me much. Heck, I usually stay out of GD because I find the “not quite” personal insults there worse than the epithets used in the Pit. But I do understand people’s need for catharsis, as these are frustrating times for everyone. This board has the unique position of allowing people to vent, while remaining civil everywhere else. I think this one reason this board feels so different, and thus creates such a strong community.
I understand the decision to move mod threads here, but IMO, once they’re here, they’re being closed waaaaay too quickly.
I don’t mind heavy moderation to make them ATMB appropriate (warnings as and even bannings if needed) but to close them as quickly as they seem to me to have been is problematic. It gives the appearance to me of being unwilling to listen to criticism and using off-topic or inappropriate posts as an excuse to close a critical thread.
You don’t want to “abuse” the staff, but you want people posting in the thread to not be “as constrained.” To me, this simply works out to: let’s allow people to be assholes to the staff.
If you have an issue with a decision of a staff member, you have several ways to make it known. You can send a PM, you can send an email, you can post a thread in ATMB. Regardless of the way you choose, the effectiveness of your method will certainly be enhanced by not using derrogatory or insulting language. There isn’t any real extra latitude in Teh Pit over ATMB beyond the ability to do two things: use foul language and use insults. Neither of those is really needed when addressing staff, in my opinion.
I’ll say again: I have no wish to see the staff subjected to verbal abuse and it’s insulting to me that you keep characterizing my suggestion as a wish for such.
And I think it’s incorrect, as well. As I said in my last post, this is only partly about constraining how posters can talk to the staff about their moderation. It’s also about how they can talk to and about each other in the course of a discussion about moderation. It’s a topic where any examples provided are going to strike a personal chord with someone: e.g. I can ask GFactor as civilly as can be why he warned me and not Fenris, when in my view Fenris is consistently a much bigger jerk than me, and that puts Fenris in a shitty position. He may be reasonably angry with me for insulting him under the guise of asking about moderation, but if he responds directly, he gets in trouble. He can start a Pit thread, but in my experience, people generally don’t. They either snap back at the time, or don’t say anything and feel treated unfairly. Similarly, if Liberal were to start his 20th ATMB thread complaining about tomndebb’s moderation toward him in a single week, I think I (and anyone else who wants to) should be able to tell him he’s being a whiny douche.
Anyway, this is just a suggestion. If the staff choose not to take it, c’est la vie. But I personally think the board does better when there are fewer rules constraining discussion, particularly of contentious issues, not more.
OK, Giraffe, now that I get what you’re saying, I’ll bring it up with the mods.
I’d take Una’s post above (#3 in this thread) to be a case in point. The first paragraph is sort of border-line, since it’s personal insults directed at a group of un-named posters.So, in the grey-fuzzy area, but on the OK side of the line. The second paragraph, however, is pretty clearly directed at one individual – not named, but clearly identified. I think that’s in the grey-fuzzy area but on the wrong side of the line.
Una, it is grey-fuzzy, so I’m not going to formally warn, but I am going to suggest (firmly) that such things belong in the Pit and not here.
I see what you are saying, Giraffe, but it seems to me that it’s highly unlikely that a thread about a moderator’s actions, in which contestants are being abusive or insulting to each other, will nevertheless manage to stay in bounds where the moderator in question is concerned. My apologies if I sounded like I made it sound like I thought you were wanting to empower insulting abusiveness.
Yeah, the broader point one is the one I meant. Hence the “mods” instead of “you”. In general, I think I could learn to live with any ridiculous rule as long as it was equally applied to all.
Well, that was one of the fastest responses among mods ever. And pretty much unanimous. We like having moved criticisms of the board or moderation from the Pit to ATMB. We see no reason that discussions can’t remain reasonably rational and civil. There is no reason that complaints can’t be aired in a way that avoids name-calling and personal insults.
The example given: Poster A comes to ATMB to complain about moderator action. Poster B thinks Poster A is merely whinging and that his complaint is unfounded. So, the options:
(1) Poster B can surely find a way to express contempt for Poster A’s complaints without expressing contempt for Poster A. We’ve always distinguished between challenging what a person says and challenging who a person is. Hence, “Your comments sound like whinging and your complaints are unfounded” would be one example of appropriate response in the ATMB thread.
(2) If Poster B is so un-creative and has such a limited vocabulary, that he really can’t avoid calling Poster A a “useless butthole” (quoting the OP), then Poster B can start a Pit thread about Poster A. That thread would not be focused on the moderator action, but on Poster A’s personality.
In short, we don’t see that name-calling and personal insults in any way promote discussion of moderator action.
We do agree that we shouldn’t be so quick to close ATMB threads. We need to patrol them carefully to be sure that posters aren’t insulting each other, but just because sentiments are running high is no reason to close a thread. So, we’ll be doing more monitoring of such threads and less closing.
It was my understanding that criticism of posters’ actions (as opposed to criticism of moderator and administrator actions) was inappropriate for ATMB. Was I misinformed, or is this a recent policy change?
