While pulling out of the post office parking lot yesterday, I wondered if I am legally required to stop at the stop sign that is for cars coming out of the parking lot onto the street?
Continuing on that vein, if so
What about stop signs that control traffic inside larger shopping centers? (Assuming that there is no other traffic around)
If my policeman neighbor puts a stop sign at the end of his driveway, and I don’t stop, can he give me a ticket?
I guess I’m just wondering if public traffic laws extend to cover privately controlled areas? I understand that if I ignore a shopping center stop sign and cause an accident that I would probably be held liable, but I’m thinking more of the situations where there are no other cars around (except, as always, the ever-lurking copper!)
Any help / thoughts in this matter would be appreciated
If you pull out of a shopping center without stopping and you cause a wreck you will probably get a ticket for unsafe movement, not running a stop sign. I don’t think you are required to stop unless it’s a real government owned stop sign - but it probably varies by state.
In a store parking lot you won’t get ticket for failure to stop at a stop sign. An accident in the parking lot of this store would still likely be credited as each driver being equally at fault, regardless of the stop sign being ignored. You may lose a civil case if sued because you ignored the stop sign and caused damage.
In some states, at least (not sure how many), you are required to come to a full stop before exiting a parking lot onto a street, regardless of signage.
Stop signs in or exiting post office property are a unique entity (off military bases and national parks, that is): Federally-authorized traffic control devices.
Traffic control devices on or governing access to private property held open to public use need to be authorized by municipal authority to be valid – but are quite legal when authorized. Consider, for example, “no parking - fire lane” signs immediately in front of stores. Signs controlling entrance and egress, and signs or stoplights at the driveways’ intersection with the highway, are likewise appropriate traffic control for the municipality.
If your policeman neighbor mounts a stop sign at the end of his driveway, the only thing he can legally control is mandating those leaving his driveway to come to a stop before entering the street. A stop sign on the street giving his driveway the right of way would not be authorized by the local municipality, and if it did, would be deemed an abuse of its ‘police power’.
This really depends quite a bit on the jurisdiction. We had a thread a while back where I cited (ok maybe it was somebody else, I’ll try to find it) a state statute that subjected some parking areas to traffic laws. In many jurisdictions, including mine, the law permits enforcement if the property owner requests it. OTOH, I had a case involving a guy who honked his horn at a cop who was blocking the exit from a parking lot. He got a ticket, even though the horn abuse statute is subject to the same limitations as speed limits and other stuff like that. I went back and forth with the prosecutor and eventually we settled the case, but he (wrongly) claimed that any area that was open to the public was a “roadway.” The statute actually requires the property to be open to the public *and * created or improved by the municipality. I probably would have won the case, but that didn’t stop the cop from ticketing him (it’s a really bad idea to honk at a cop, even if he’s in your way). Most jurisdictions do require some sort of official blessing for the type of traffic control device before it’s enforceable, so if you’re talking about some sort of makeshift sign, it’s less likely to be enforceable.
Here is something I wrote elsewhere on this topic:
It depends. Most state traffic codes don’t apply, in general, on private property, but that doesn’t mean that they never do.
For example, California Vehicle Code § 21001 says, “The provisions of this division refer exclusively to the operation of vehicles upon the highways, unless a different place is specifically referred to.” The Code goes on to authorize local authorities to make the Code applicable to private roads and parking lots, and finally, to offer the owner of the road or parking lot to opt out by posting a sign meeting certain requirements.
Michigan’s vehicle code announces a similar general limitation to highways. Instead of leaving it up to local authorities, though, Michigan’s Uniform Traffic Code maintains the limitation unless the property owner requests the installation and enforcement of traffic control devices. Local ordinances, such as the onefor West Bloomfield, Michigan, permit owners of private roads and parking areas to request the township to subject their property to the traffic laws. This provision applies most of the laws about motor vehicles to vehicles on the property in question. Specifically, the ordinance subjects those on the property to: speed restrictions, motor vehicle license requirements, driver’s license requirements, equipment requirements, unattended vehicle requirements, designated places for stopping, right of way requirements, pedestrian right of way requirements, traffic control device regulation, and restrictions on the sale of vehicles.
Ohio’s regime is more complicated. Ohio lacks a provision expressly limiting the application of traffic laws to highways or roads. Some statutes, such as the OVI statute, ORC § 4511.19, apply anywhere in the state. See Koch v. Dollison, Ohio App. 3d 141, 440 N.E.2d 1362 (Ohio Ct. App. 1981). Others, like the implied consent statute, only apply to those operating on the public highways. Id. Courts have held that most traffic laws do not apply on private property. As the court in State v. Campbell put it,
And while ORC § 4511.08 allows private property owners to regulate traffic on their property, violators of those regulations cannot be ticketed. In re Callaway, 1980 Ohio App. LEXIS 9920 (Ohio Ct. App. 1980).
In Florida (I have been told, so take it for what you paid for it) that any area that is open to the public the signs have the force of law. So grocery store parking lots and the like are covered. If the area is restricted, then the signs are simply private traffic control devices and cannot be the basis for a ticket.
