Can We Get Away From Water Based Sewage Systems?

[ralph124c]

Of all the achievements of modern man, our sewage systes are probably the most important. Getting rid of our waste products has saved us fom disease, and made life much better. But, we waste a lot of water with hese systems-could we move to systems which don't transmit the crap to central treatment plants? Like incinerating toilets-culd we replace sewers wit these? The pollution of our rivers and coasts from sewage s a big problem-why not just destroy it at the source?

[Interconnected Series of Tubes]

I dunno.

Poo is pretty water based.

[Jerseyman]

Go back to the Elizabethan Earth closet that just covered 'it' with a layer of sand or something and when you give it its annual muck-out spread it on your garden

[LouisB]

There are a few waste disposal plants that supposedly turn waste water into potable water; not that I would volunteer to sample it, but I've seen documentaries on TV that show people drinking it.

We have waste disposal plants in Pinellas County that pump reclaimed water to some areas to be used to water lawns, ball parks, golf courses, etc. I suppose that water ends up entering the ground water system, which means it probably is recycled as potable water.

Disposable of solid waste is a big problem; Pinellas County has to pay to have it trucked away and spread on farm land as fertilizer.

[Ponch8]

Originally Posted by ralph124c

Like incinerating toilets-culd we replace sewers wit these? The pollution of our rivers and coasts from sewage s a big problem-why not just destroy it at the source?

Wouldn't this just replace water pollution with air pollution?

[Dewey Finn]

You might be interesting in composting toilets. Done properly, there should be no odor.

[Duckster]

Originally Posted by ralph124c

The pollution of our rivers and coasts from sewage s a big problem-why not just destroy it at the source?

Perhaps a proper sewage treatment plant that doesn't discharge waste into the environment? Lots of places already do that.

[wierdaaron]

I cant think of anything we could do with our poo to make it go away but didn't involve forcing it away via water pressure, unless you wanted to move to a pneumatic plumbing system. Like at drive-through banks. It'd still have to go somewhere, though.

Only solution would be to have toilets that create quantum wormholes that send anything flushed to an alternate universe. Though, one day you might find a note in your toilet that says "We're sick of putting up with your shit!"

[bluezooky]

My whole suburb has no seweage connection everyone treats their own waste
http://www.envirocycle.com.au/nsw.htm

[johnpost]

composting toilets work great on a household scale, though because of size of the system ( large closet size space for a full time family) you often only have one. you still have safe solids to dispose of. difficult to use larger scale or above ground level.

the water is a great collection system for multiple units.

incinerating toilets are energy intensive and may only be used when no other solution exists. still have solids to dispose of.

[twickster]

I see the OP's question as "what are some of the alternate ways of handling human waste," which seems pretty fact-based to me, so I'm gonna move this to GQ.

No shit.

twickster, MPSIMS mod

[Shagnasty]

Originally Posted by bluezooky

My whole suburb has no seweage connection everyone treats their own waste
http://www.envirocycle.com.au/nsw.htm

My whole town here in Massachusetts doesn't have a sewer system. You build your own septic system and the regulations are strict and any failure can cost tens of thousands of dollars in repairs which has never happened to me but it has to neighbors. I have had to dig down to the holding lid a few times and open it for inspections and it doesn't smell bad, just a little earthy. All of that type of waste stays on a leech field on your own property and it seems to work well. That is very common in rural areas too.

[groman]

I think if the goal is preventing fresh water from getting into the ocean, then we could just retrofit sewage systems to work with sea water, because there's no need to conserve sea water (that I know of).

[Giles]

Originally Posted by groman

I think if the goal is preventing fresh water from getting into the ocean, then we could just retrofit sewage systems to work with sea water, because there's no need to conserve sea water (that I know of).

When the Pacific Ocean is down to its last few megalitres, you'll regret that statement

[Polycarp]

Originally Posted by groman

I think if the goal is preventing fresh water from getting into the ocean, then we could just retrofit sewage systems to work with sea water, because there's no need to conserve sea water (that I know of).

Except that (A) that would only work (if it worked at all) with coastal areas and areas on inland bays -- the majority of the U.S. is hundreds if not thousands of miles from the ocean or brackish oceanic embayments -- and (B) sanitary waste treatment involves filtering sewerage through soil filters along with other treatment techniques, and sea water would itself pollute the filters by salt entrapment.

In general, I am wondering how well the techniques for non-water or minimal-water-use systems -- composting, septic systems, etc., will work "wholesale" -- they will of course work for single-unit rural locations, but how functional would they be in denser-population areas?

[johnpost]

Originally Posted by Shagnasty

My whole town here in Massachusetts doesn't have a sewer system. You build your own septic system and the regulations are strict and any failure can cost tens of thousands of dollars in repairs which has never happened to me but it has to neighbors. I have had to dig down to the holding lid a few times and open it for inspections and it doesn't smell bad, just a little earthy. All of that type of waste stays on a leech field on your own property and it seems to work well. That is very common in rural areas too.

the leech field only gets rid of the water. all the solids stay in the tank and need to be pumped out at some point. pumping every 3 to 5 years makes it pump out easy and have the system work well. if you wait longer the system doesn't work as well, you might be discharging under processed liquids causing pollution, and the solids become too hard to pump out totally (without extra effort and cost).

[groman]

Originally Posted by Polycarp

Except that (A) that would only work (if it worked at all) with coastal areas and areas on inland bays -- the majority of the U.S. is hundreds if not thousands of miles from the ocean or brackish oceanic embayments -- and (B) sanitary waste treatment involves filtering sewerage through soil filters along with other treatment techniques, and sea water would itself pollute the filters by salt entrapment.

By 'retrofit' the system to use salt water I meant specifically addressing the issues you list in (B) as well as dealing with corrosion and things like that. I think a lot of water conservation efforts are utterly misguided though -- humans do not use up any water. We move it around, but it doesn't stop being water. If the problem with sewage is that you are flushing with fresh groundwater that doesn't make it back into the ground, then that's the problem that has to be addressed -- not using less water to flush.

We redistribute (by putting it into the oceans or the atmosphere) and we pollute too much water, but it's silly to say we 'use' too much. And since we already have a pretty good idea of how to treat sewage, as long as we make sure the water makes it back to where it came from we're probably not going to beat water in terms of environmentally friendly sewage alternatives

[johnpost]

Originally Posted by Polycarp

In general, I am wondering how well the techniques for non-water or minimal-water-use systems -- composting, septic systems, etc., will work "wholesale" -- they will of course work for single-unit rural locations, but how functional would they be in denser-population areas?

in non-sewer areas schools, businesses and such will have septic systems but in such rural areas these are not large volume generators compared to urban ones.

composting needs area and ventilation. for full time family use there will be two chambers (large closet size), one is in use for like a year while the other decomposes. air flow is needed to dry the waste and to keep anaerobic bacteria from growing a lot (they are the stinkier ones). the chamber have to be big enough so the pile doesn't get too deep and away from air, also can do some turning of the decomposing pile to speed it up.

large volume inputs need large area for composting to process, so this is harder to scale up. septic solids can be spread as fertilizer (on vegetation that is nonhuman food). Milwaukee, WI does sell dried solids from their city sewerage plant as well for nonhuman food crop use.

[johnpost]

Originally Posted by groman

We redistribute (by putting it into the oceans or the atmosphere) and we pollute too much water, but it's silly to say we 'use' too much. And since we already have a pretty good idea of how to treat sewage, as long as we make sure the water makes it back to where it came from we're probably not going to beat water in terms of environmentally friendly sewage alternatives

you don't want to exactly put the treated water back where it came from. most often it is not perfectly treated, the treatment doesn't discharge drinking quality water especially if the sanitary sewers are leaky or it is a combined sanitary and storm system. cities on the Great Lakes found they had to put their intake and output systems miles apart to not have problems even with that amount of dilution.

also well water is often separate from ground water. so the input and output water is separated by many years of flow and who knows how many hundreds of miles of flow path.

[butler1850]

Originally Posted by Shagnasty

I have had to dig down to the holding lid a few times and open it for inspections and it doesn't smell bad, just a little earthy.

Next time you have it pumped, stay for the transfer. You'll change your mind about the smell of the "below water" product.

The pumped out parts are simply spread somewhere, dehydrated, and the leftovers sold for some sort of non-food-plant fertilizer... or so I learned on a Dirty Jobs episode (I think. If not, it was a similar show) I don't want to live near that drying spot.

[NinetyWt]

[nitpick]

It's leach field. The water is leaching out into the soil.

[/nitpick]

Septic tank systems with leach fields don't work well in areas with heavy, clayey soils as the permeability is too low (water won't percolate through them).

Septic tanks also aren't supposed to be installed within flood plains (according to NFIP regulations).

[johnpost]

Originally Posted by NinetyWt

[nitpick]

It's leach field. The water is leaching out into the soil.

[/nitpick]

Septic tank systems with leach fields don't work well in areas with heavy, clayey soils as the permeability is too low (water won't percolate through them).

Septic tanks also aren't supposed to be installed within flood plains (according to NFIP regulations).

correct on the spelling.

where there is a small amount of percolating soil (high bedrock or clay soils) some places allow a mound system where the field is placed into a man made mound of good soil. i think recent designs for septic favor the outlet being shallow (still below the frost level if possible) and the liquids evaporating or used by vegetation as well as sinking.

[Sapo]

Originally Posted by wierdaaron

I cant think of anything we could do with our poo to make it go away but didn't involve forcing it away via water pressure, unless you wanted to move to a pneumatic plumbing system. Like at drive-through banks. It'd still have to go somewhere, though.

Only solution would be to have toilets that create quantum wormholes that send anything flushed to an alternate universe. Though, one day you might find a note in your toilet that says "We're sick of putting up with your shit!"

Or you discover that this "alternate" universe is just your own universe a few years in the future.

[Quercus]

I suppose we could build incinerators or whatnot to deal with the brown part of sewage, but what's going to deal with the shower drains, sink drains, dishwasher drains and washing machine drains?
If we're going to eliminate sanitary sewers (and/or septic systems), we're going to have to make a fundamental shift in our cleaning technologies.

[Really Not All That Bright]

As I understand it, the current system uses waste water to move waste solids. Seems like a pretty efficient plan; why would you get rid of it?

Go back to the Elizabethan Earth closet that just covered 'it' with a layer of sand or something and when you give it its annual muck-out spread it on your garden

Elizabethan earth closets didn't have to handle the sort of population density we have now. Just one high-rise apartment building produces enough solid waste to cover a few acres of midden fields.

[Baracus]

Originally Posted by Quercus

I suppose we could build incinerators or whatnot to deal with the brown part of sewage...

Personally, the idea of crapping into an incinerator chaps my ass.

[Crowbar of Irony +3]

Originally Posted by LouisB

There are a few waste disposal plants that supposedly turn waste water into potable water; not that I would volunteer to sample it, but I've seen documentaries on TV that show people drinking it.

.

In Singapore, we do that. It's called Newater (personally I refer to it as shit-water). Only some thousands of bottles were ever given out at special National events. They are mixed with normal reservoir water.

[Never Say Dice]

I expect at some point dry "sewage" will happen, because it's not that big a problem. If some government, say our own, put some money into perfecting it.
The only problem with excrement is the bacteria creating stink and passing on disease.
But raising the temperature for very short periods takes care of that. No need for radiation. Perhaps a system of rolling the stuff into really thin sheets and passing it through a laser or bed of sparks. Sparks created by shuffling your bunny slippers on the bathmat, there's the ticket!

[kanicbird]

Originally Posted by wierdaaron

I cant think of anything we could do with our poo to make it go away but didn't involve forcing it away via water pressure, unless you wanted to move to a pneumatic plumbing system.

Conveyor belts?

[horsetech]

Wouldn't that be a poo-matic system?