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Old 08-31-2009, 08:37 PM
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Please forgive me...but I'm curious...[Why isn't a knee to the groin a more common fighting tactic?]


All males know (and most females eventually learn) that the testicles and penis are a very vulnerable, tender, "take-no-prisoners" part of a male's anatomy....

So why, in all of the Kung Fu, or Military, or "Rocky" or "Gang" stuff - do we NOT see males, themselves, going after this most vulnerable part of the male anatomy in every kind of combat?

It is curious to me.

Why is it that we don't see males going FIRST for this tender part of their bodies when they determine to wreck another male?

As this move is always shown to be the most painful and neutralizing of all possible violence against the male anatomy.

Is it some sort of "Gentlemen's" agreement that all males understand ...and therefore is seldom executed?

A girl wants to know...
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Old 08-31-2009, 09:08 PM
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I'm interested in the answer to this too, but the title to this thread is vague...maybe the Mods can change it to something about "a kick in the nads" to get more people to look at it.
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Old 08-31-2009, 09:13 PM
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It's a small target, hard to hit, and attacking could leave you vulnerable to other attacks.
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Old 08-31-2009, 09:17 PM
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Haven't watched "An Officer and a Gentleman" recently, have we?

But in general, it IS a lot harder to hit than a face or abdomen. I'm sure in actual fights the groin is gone after more, but in movies they want nice, long, choreographed fight scenes that show off the male lead's excellent martial arts skills.
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Old 08-31-2009, 09:18 PM
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because the other guy would rip your arm off and beat you to death with it if you tried.
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Old 08-31-2009, 09:26 PM
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No. No.

This doesn't answer the question.

We've all seen all of the 'Marhsall Arts' movies - all of the "Hand-To-Hand Combat" movies, all of the "Gang" movies.... but it seems...males never seem to "go" for the most vulnerable part of their bodies...even in football...even in fights anywhere...

Cripes -

Males know what happens when the testicles are kicked or punched or squeezed or hammered...and yet...

In all manner of movies and situations, in "real life" situations... males seem to shy away from touching or hurting or harming this part of the body.

Interesting..since this is the MOST damage (short of ending another's life) that males could do to one another...why is it almost never seen?

Or only rarely shown in movies?

Is this knowledge of one another so sacrosant?

Still wondering...
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Old 08-31-2009, 09:36 PM
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As a female, I don't know for sure, but I think it may be related to the "sympathetic wince" all males seem to do when they see the "damage" happen to another on tv or wherever. Perhaps it's just that "no sane person would do that to another person" idea? Or it doesn't occur to a male to do such things?
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Old 08-31-2009, 09:37 PM
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So you get a completely reasonably answer and you just dismiss it, why?
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Old 08-31-2009, 09:42 PM
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Would be interesting to get some actual anecdotal data. Anyone here get into real-world fights often?

I'll bet the answer is still that men don't do it. The same way we don't try to poke out eachothers' eyeballs or break fingers at the first opportunity. What do we look like, women?
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Old 08-31-2009, 09:43 PM
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Interesting..since this is the MOST damage (short of ending another's life) that males could do to one another...
No, no it isn't.
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Old 08-31-2009, 09:51 PM
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In a real fight, an attack to the groin is very unlikely to succeed, since men instinctively go to great lengths to protect the testicles. For the same reason, however, a feint to the groin is likely to succeed.
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Old 08-31-2009, 10:01 PM
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I haven't really had time to discover if Penny Arcade's assessment of Mixed Martial Arts fighting is accurate. If so it seems to be just what the OP describes.
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Old 08-31-2009, 10:02 PM
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None of this answers the questions.

Okay.

Why aren't ALL males schooled (in every Military school) - boy's schools, the Military, etc. - to each go 'after' every other males penis and testicles?

To HURT them.

To disarm them?

OKAY -

on the mean streets of drug deeling...to HURT one another with causing crazy damage to the penis and testicles?

Males know this vulnerability about one another.

Is THAT why they are so "carefule" about exactly HOW they 'hurt' one another?

A bullet to the head is okay.

But don't touch the testicles?

Again..this is fascinating and curious to me...
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Old 08-31-2009, 10:08 PM
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It's hard to hit the groin. This has been stated several times. Please read and understand those comments.
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Old 08-31-2009, 10:15 PM
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Take any self defense course and you will be taught right off the bat that a shot to the crotch is a valid and damaging blow. I've taken many such courses and every single one includes this. From an early age boys (and girls) learn that the good old kick to the groin is a way to take someone down.

Some movies do include it and yes you'll generally see all the guys in the theatre wince when someone gets nailed in the balls.

I think you don't see it in movies as much because it isn't flashy and it's considered a "low blow" so you don't want your hero walking through the movie crushing testicles if you want the audience to be cheering for him.

In a real fight (and I've never been in one so I'm going on what my friends and teachers who have been have told me) there may be a couple of reasons:

1. Every guy expects it so when you start going for the beltline they defend against it.
2. It's not the easiest target - you have to punch low or throw a kick, something that most people aren't good at.
3. It's not a big target (pause for laughs) - if someone goes for a kick you just turn a little bit and they'll hit your thigh, not your crotch. If they try and punch they have to come in low which may leave their face wide open.
4. Once you start attacking the crotch that's a bit of a signal that "anything goes" - you might see a couple of loudmouths trade punches to the face at a bar and then basically go their separate ways once they are pulled off each other. However if someone knees someone in the nuts they just escalated things - what might have been a couple of punches and then break it up becomes one guy trying to kill the other one.
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Old 08-31-2009, 10:19 PM
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Edited title to indicate subject better.

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Old 08-31-2009, 10:23 PM
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"It's hard to hit the groin. This has been stated several times. Please read and understand those comments."

Why is it "hard to hit the groin."


Of course, it isn't.

Not for males in combat nor for females engaged in...other endeavors.

The penis and testicles are vulvnerable physically at all times.

To males. To females.

They are outside of the body.

They are between the legs.

They are easy appendages to harm.

And yet....

Males are very 'CAREFUL'... of one another's "stuff"...

Makes one think... don't it???
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Old 08-31-2009, 10:28 PM
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A bullet to the head is okay.

But don't touch the testicles?

Again..this is fascinating and curious to me...
Thought experiment.

What's the maximum range from which one of these guys could punch the other in the face? They could probably do it without compromising their defensive stance. The damage potential is high (ever been socked in the jaw?) and the risk level is fairly low.

Could they do so while kneeing the other guy in the crotch? No, they'd have to get a lot closer, and while committing to kneeing the opponent in the groin, they'd be subject to being blocked and grabbed. Thus, a knee to the testicles - while it has great damage potential - is very risky.
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Old 08-31-2009, 10:31 PM
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Makes one think... don't it???
What does it make you think, exactly?
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Old 08-31-2009, 10:33 PM
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Guys don't go after the crotch for the same reason they don't try to gouge eyes for the same reason they don't use hollow point bullets. Leave it up to women, and all our wars would be resolved with mustard gas....
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Old 08-31-2009, 10:36 PM
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"It's hard to hit the groin. This has been stated several times. Please read and understand those comments."

Why is it "hard to hit the groin."


Of course, it isn't.

Not for males in combat nor for females engaged in...other endeavors.

The penis and testicles are vulvnerable physically at all times.

To males. To females.

They are outside of the body.

They are between the legs.

They are easy appendages to harm.

And yet....

Males are very 'CAREFUL'... of one another's "stuff"...

Makes one think... don't it???
You're very much mistaken about how easy it is to hit. It's a small movement to put a thigh where the testicles were a split second before. Guys are trained from childhood to protect their junk. Why would it be easy to hit an easily defensible area that people are always guarding? It's outside the body? Then I guess it'd be easy your you to punch my taint, is that right? What about the mole in my ass crack?
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Old 08-31-2009, 10:38 PM
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I was just told that doing actual damage that incapacitates by attacking that portion of the anatomy is more difficult than one thinks. Mr.CJ says that one has to hit them just right to actually stop someone. Not only that, coming close enough to threaten those parts puts the opponent in easy assault range. It's also an easily defended area. According to Mr.CJ, "If they were that easy to damage, no guy would ever sit down."
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Old 08-31-2009, 10:41 PM
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They are between the legs.
Which means that if you try to hit them, you're likely to hit a leg instead, and a punch or kick to the thigh isn't going to do anything to anyone. By contrast, if you aim for the chest, or the gut, or the face, there's pretty much nothing you could hit that isn't a worthwhile target.
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Old 08-31-2009, 10:41 PM
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Why is it "hard to hit the groin."
It's hard because our arms don't extend like rubber bands. A shot to the head and upper chest are exactly one arm's length away when you're standing in front of the guy you're attacking. His groin is probably about an arm and a quarter. Trying to make up that quarter is going to get you walloped in the head.

On the other hand, if you want to kick him, usually you're at something more like arm's length than leg's length when you fight someone. When you're at arm's length, their shins and their head are at the right distance to get hit by your foot. The groin is too close. Accordioning your leg to be short enough to kick the groin is going to take time and be real noticeable. Plenty of time for him to block.
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Old 08-31-2009, 10:48 PM
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You're very much mistaken about how easy it is to hit. It's a small movement to put a thigh where the testicles were a split second before. Guys are trained from childhood to protect their junk. Why would it be easy to hit an easily defensible area that people are always guarding? It's outside the body? Then I guess it'd be easy your you to punch my taint, is that right? What about the mole in my ass crack?
I really don't think it's difficult. For example, in martial arts you are taught to always stand with your legs apart. The way the stances are, it is easy to use the front foot to deliver a quick low kick to the groin (it's just like the common low-kick to the quadricep, except you bend forward your toes). It happens fairly regularly in sparring just by accident, and most people wear a cup.

You wouldn't try going for the groin from a standstill, same as you wouldn't throw any other powerful attack. But if you throw a combo--a jab to the face, a cross to the face again, then *bam* a quick left front kick to the groin--all within a second--you'll stand a high chance of success.

Last edited by Alex_Dubinsky; 08-31-2009 at 10:53 PM.
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Old 08-31-2009, 10:51 PM
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By contrast, if you aim for the chest, or the gut, or the face, there's pretty much nothing you could hit that isn't a worthwhile target.
Huh? Hitting the chest is worthless. Hitting the gut isn't spectacular either. You have to hit special targets like the solar plexus or the kidneys/lower ribs. Likewise the face has special points, like the jaw and nose. Punch the forehead, and you might as well go punch a wall.
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Old 08-31-2009, 10:54 PM
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Well...okay...

whatever you guys say...

"...the groin is really not that vulnerable...

"It's not easy to grasp...

Right...

Guys know...

And has been said to me (no! no cite!) ...no guys "expect" an "assault on our nuts..."

Still...I ask... A 'Gentlemen's Agreement"?...

Males are this "Delicate" about one another's stuff?

Come on boys.

In future "Sanctioned" wars.... let's all agree that going for the groin - penis and testicles - is "Within Bounds" - A "PRIORITY" even....

Perhaps this will make males protect one another enough to stop?
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Old 08-31-2009, 11:00 PM
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In future "Sanctioned" wars.... let's all agree that going for the groin - penis and testicles - is "Within Bounds" - A "PRIORITY" even....

Perhaps this will make males protect one another enough to stop?
That is perhaps a thought. The greater the chance of being harmed, the more incentive to avoid conflict. Nukes are probably why the USA and USSR never fought. But now we're getting philosophical....

Did you get the part where I explained there's lots of attacks that people don't do against one another? Why is that hard to understand? Do you just want to go around punching guys in the nuts? Why don't you carry a switchblade around with you and just slice at them? Did you know you can just kill people with the most common blunt objects? Someone gives you shit, just find a brick. Pick up a ballpoint pen. In our plastic society, lots of things are still metal....

Last edited by Alex_Dubinsky; 08-31-2009 at 11:04 PM.
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Old 08-31-2009, 11:02 PM
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Why is it "hard to hit the groin."

Of course, it isn't.
In a real fight, it most certainly is difficult to target the groin.

Keep in mind that while you are attempting to land a blow, your opponent is trying to hit you as well. For instance, extend your arm in a punching motion at eye-level with your elbow slightly bent. This is the range at which you and and your opponent would be trading blows. Now aim the same punch a foot or two lower towards the groin, and you would be forced to lean forward to land the blow. This is bad for balance and leaves you vulnerable. And your opponent might clock you in the head or the torso in the meantime.

Similiarly, you can try to land a kick to the groin since your kicking range is typically longer than your punching range. But that requires you lift one leg off the ground, again ruining your balance. If you don't land the strike, you may have some problems (opponent throws you hard to the ground, say).

Further, a very natural reaction to an incoming blow to the groin (at least for me) is to rotate the hips, causing the blow to land on the thigh. It tends to be a natural human reaction; what's your first instinct if someone tries to hit you anywhere? Usually, it's to try to block with the hands and arms, shrink away, and rotate your body away from the contact.

If you're grappling on the ground and your knee happens to be in the general vicinity of your opponent's groin, sure, why not. But the groin is generally a poor target.
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Old 08-31-2009, 11:03 PM
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lurking guest is seriously abusing the Enter key.
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Old 08-31-2009, 11:08 PM
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Further, a very natural reaction to an incoming blow to the groin (at least for me) is to rotate the hips, causing the blow to land on the thigh. It tends to be a natural human reaction; what's your first instinct if someone tries to hit you anywhere? Usually, it's to try to block with the hands and arms, shrink away, and rotate your body away from the contact.
Like I said, low round-kick with the front foot. The more you rotate, the better it is. You can throw a round kick with the leg bent in, and it's no less effective.
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Old 08-31-2009, 11:10 PM
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BTW. Steven Segal has a new movie coming out COCK PUNCHER!
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Old 08-31-2009, 11:10 PM
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The OP keeps mentioning the penis is a highly vulnerable target. It isn't. The testicles are very particular, but the penis in a flacid state can take (wait for it) quite a beating.
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Old 08-31-2009, 11:14 PM
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So why, in all of the Kung Fu, or Military, or "Rocky" or "Gang" stuff - do we NOT see males, themselves, going after this most vulnerable part of the male anatomy in every kind of combat?
An initial read of your question seems to be focused on entertainment based fights. In action movies, etc., shots to the groin don't make very good entertainment. It's not very heroic to either be incapacitated by a groin shot or to use a 'cheap shot' to take out your opponent, so bad guys and good guys are both out of consideration. This isn't a concern in comedies, where you'll see groin shots abound (Austin Powers, Bad Santa, etc.).

In entertainment fighting (boxing, MMA, whatever) there are rules to outlaw groin shots, and competitors wear cups anyway. Cups work really really well.

Outside of entertainment, we generally aren't exposed very often to actual down-and-dirty fighting. I would wager that groin shots are not uncommon in actual survival-may-be-on-the-line fights.

There certainly are self-defense systems that include groin shots. One particular system includes the lovely 'grab-twist-pull' as one of the initial steps to escape a bear-hug from behind. I don't think anyone's ever actually found a training partner to try it on, though.
  #35  
Old 08-31-2009, 11:28 PM
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Well...okay...
Still...I ask... A 'Gentlemen's Agreement"?...

Males are this "Delicate" about one another's stuff?

Come on boys.

In future "Sanctioned" wars.... let's all agree that going for the groin - penis and testicles - is "Within Bounds" - A "PRIORITY" even....

Perhaps this will make males protect one another enough to stop?
No, I don't think that the key to world peace is teach groin strikes. As has been stated earlier, a kicking the nads is a standard part of fight curriculum, and I've seen little evidence of Kumba Ya. [1]

That said. You have to think about the context of the fight in question.

On the battlefield, killing and maiming is acceptable, though hand to hand combat is pretty rare today.

Code of honor? No, male instinct
But in most fight situations killing or maiming has consequences. So just as knees to the groin are rare, so are strikes to the knees and elbow breaks. A fight between males of the same species is typically a display. So when male lions fight, it's not always to the death, since a death match could very well kill them both - even if one lion unequivocally wins the battle. Infection can do that. The ability to fight and hold back is embedded deeply within male intuition and is not unique to homo sapiens. Indeed, this holding back comes naturally and can coexist with rage, anger and hatred.

Weapons are a complicating factor. And humans possess notorious behavioral flexibility. So if you get into a fight with someone you don't know, you may not be able to predict whether they will act as if they have nothing to lose. Heck, that's the case if you're fighting anyone.


[1] Or rather, there has been a decline in violence in the Western World over the past 200 years. But that's a result of the extension and deepening of the rule of law.

Last edited by Measure for Measure; 08-31-2009 at 11:29 PM.
  #36  
Old 08-31-2009, 11:31 PM
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If there WERE a "gentleman's agreement," and if it WERE very easy to hit someone in the crotch, wouldn't hitting someone in the crotch be absolutely devastating? Not only would it be a hit to the crotch, it would be an UNEXPECTED hit to the crotch.

There would be a huge incentive to use it. If you have a 50-50 chance of winning any given bar fight, and can increase your chance of winning to, say, 75% with a simple, devastating kick to the crotch, why WOULDN'T you see it in most bar fights?

The fact that it's not a tactic in common, actual, real street fights is most likely evidence that for the level of training that most street fighters have, it's some combination of difficult and ineffective, where 'ineffective' means 'unlikely to hit in such a way as to do damage.' Whether you choose to believe the posters in this thread or not, it's simply not the case that kicking someone in the crotch is easy to do.
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Old 08-31-2009, 11:32 PM
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A real street fight is nothing like TV. Generally they end up on the ground almost immediately and then roll around for a little while until one of them establishes a dominant position on top of the other guy and starts raining down blows to the face. Very little time is available for a groin kick, especially if you risk having your leg grabbed and your balance thrown with the other guy ending up on top of you.

Another thing, aren't women's breasts also quite sensitive? And yet, you never see 2 women trying to stand and punch each other in the bewbz. It's simply not how people fight. One tackles the other and after that it's all a ground battle.
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Old 08-31-2009, 11:35 PM
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Haven't heard yet....

Why males, knowing one another's vulnerabilities, don't just "go for it."

Doesn't happen.

They're quite gentle-like in their consideration for one another's junk.

Males punch one another in the nose, the eye, the gut - use "Kung Fu" moves - but NEVER go for that one vulnerable place.

Never take that knife to cut off the penis or testicles of their opponent on the "hard streets" of male aggression.

Curious.
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Old 08-31-2009, 11:43 PM
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Haven't heard yet....

Why males, knowing one another's vulnerabilities, don't just "go for it."

Doesn't happen.

They're quite gentle-like in their consideration for one another's junk.

Males punch one another in the nose, the eye, the gut - use "Kung Fu" moves - but NEVER go for that one vulnerable place.

Never take that knife to cut off the penis or testicles of their opponent on the "hard streets" of male aggression.

Curious.
[Moderating]

lurking guest, you have received quite a few answers that respond to these points. Simply ignoring the answers you receive and asking the same questions over and over again is not particularly useful in GQ. If you have some specific objections to particular answers, please address them directly. Otherwise I'll be inclined to close this thread as "asked and answered."


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  #40  
Old 08-31-2009, 11:58 PM
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Never take that knife to cut off the penis or testicles of their opponent on the "hard streets" of male aggression.

Curious.
You seem to be obsessed with this...the male's anatomy in general. Is there a reason?
  #41  
Old 09-01-2009, 12:00 AM
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rrrr


I was given a few Krav Maga lessons in the army, and the very first move they taught us... was to run away. The second move they taught us was to hit him in the head with a brick. But the third move the taught us - and the first actual martial arts move - was how to properly kick someone in the groin.

Then eye-gauging.
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Old 09-01-2009, 12:04 AM
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OK your persistance has busted us lurking guest. Our secret is out.

All males, usually between the ages of 5-7 years old, take the bloody testicular pact. The exact wording of the pact varies to some degree from nation to nation, but the ultimate bottom line is thus - no male will willfully strike at another males crotch under threat of the most severe punishments allowed under the auspices of mandom.

That is why it is not taught in martial arts, and not shown in movies and TV. Self Defence classes are OK as that is mostly teaching women to do it (and the occasional bloke who has obviously slipped through the net of making the pledge)


[Yes I know this is GQ - but if someone is going to willfully ignore the answer provided I see no reason not to provide other more obvious truths - Consequences of revelaing the secret Pact be damned.]
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Old 09-01-2009, 01:02 AM
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I think Valgard gave the most complete answer in #15, but I'll try it again only slightly differently.

1.) In movies - It's unsportsmanshiplike. It would be a bad movie if Rocky or Bruce Lee were to win a fight by a kick to the nuts.

2.) In a schoolyard situation - It's like M.A.D. Same reason we didn't nuke the USSR. If you go there, then not only does your opponent have free reign to go after your nuts, (which you DO NOT want at all), but no matter the ending, he will have the moral high ground because you resorted to that first.

3.) We've all been in a schoolyard situation where #2 was not yet understood. We now protect that area instinctually.

4.) A punch-to-the-face-knockout is much more satisfying.
  #44  
Old 09-01-2009, 02:01 AM
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I was in a situation where the other person - a female who attacked my girlfriend - tried very hard to kick me in the balls when I leapt in to stop the attack.

I have zero training or experience in fighting of any kind, but I found it very easy to sidestep her kicks.

She was so focussed on trying to kick my balls that when I got tired of sidestepping her kicks and socked her in the jaw, I doubt she even saw it coming. At that point she let go of my girlfriend, which was the required result, so we got out of there.

My insight from this is that females think male genitals are an easy target, but they're not.
  #45  
Old 09-01-2009, 02:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Godinama View Post
A real street fight is nothing like TV. Generally they end up on the ground almost immediately and then roll around for a little while until one of them establishes a dominant position on top of the other guy and starts raining down blows to the face.
This has become the conventional wisdom (nice job Gracie).

But of course it has little empirical support. It might be correct. But the 2 physical confrontations on the street that I witnessed (one with fists, the other with blade and bat) did not end on the ground. One ended with mutual yelling and finger pointing. The other ended with burnt rubber, as one fellow drove away in haste.
  #46  
Old 09-01-2009, 02:16 AM
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Since you've rejected everyone else's answer, I'll come up with my own WAG.

1. Guys are socialized from a very early age to avoid contact with another guy's genitals. Even in self-defense, that socialization is very strong. You know, you don't want to catch teh gay. Women have no such qualms.

2. Retaliation. If the other guy's nads are fair game, so are yours.
  #47  
Old 09-01-2009, 02:21 AM
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Enter - The new caps lock. For all your stubborn needs.
  #48  
Old 09-01-2009, 02:28 AM
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A knee to the groin is very effective if you are willing to risk the blows you might take to get in that close - which is why it is a foul in any sports-related martial arts.

A kick at someone's groin is just as likely to end up with you on the floor, as it is in landing perfectly and putting your opponent down.
  #49  
Old 09-01-2009, 02:34 AM
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A knee to the groin is very effective if you are willing to risk the blows you might take to get in that close - which is why it is a foul in any sports-related martial arts.
Kicks to the groin, though, are permitted in some sparring styles. (Practitioners wear a cup.)
  #50  
Old 09-01-2009, 02:41 AM
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My take is this:

Movies:
For the same reason that groin shots are forbidden i MMA, they don't make very interesting fights. They don't appeal to the viewer's view of the character either. We don't like seeing our heroes dominating, we prefer to see them win honorably and after taking quite a beating themselves. Taking a few punches to the jaw (however unrealistic) we might accept, but more than a nudge to the groin is beyond anybody's suspense of disbelief.

In a bar room brawl
As previous posters said, mainly MAD. You don't see groin kicks. You don't see fish hooks, biting, eye-gouging or people being stabbed in the face with sharp objects either. Both guys expect to be able to come home that evening.

In real life
Frankly, because most people don't know how to fight, and that's probably a good thing. A real fight takes place on the ground, involves elbows instead of fists, knees instead of kicks, and involves a lot of nasty stuff that will most likely leave the other combatant permanently maimed. Look at Krav Maga and other combat arts as an example.
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