Cecil's comment on Pit Bulls

Cecil's Columns/Staff Reports
1

Hey guys!

I must say most of his information was accurate. They don’t have, “locking jaws” that is next to impossible. Their bite is actually 2nd in strength to Rottweilers and third is the German Shepard bite. What he failed to state is that according to the AKC(AMERICAN KENNEL CLUB) “Pit Bulls”(which by the way isn’t a registered name. It’s American Pit Bull Terrier) rank under Border Collies in temperament tests. These tests include their food aggression tests, their temperament tests with attacking people and others. As a matter of fact Pits are NOT used as guard dogs typically and often will come up to strangers like they are their long lost friends. Unlike Dobermans and Rotties and even German Shepards they are typically friendly to people. Why do they become mean and are used for fighting and such? He is right they were in fact bred for that back in the day. If you were tied up to a pole with a 50 lb chain around your neck, forced to run small dog made tread mills, not fed any food or water, had gun powder put in your food, etc. etc. YOU WOULD BE MEAN TOO! And quite frankly they can do this to any dog(especially a large dominating breed) and it will react the same way. What he also may not realize is many of these tests are done unfairly in the sense that American Pit Bull Terriers are actually one of the most popular breeds(hence there are more of them.) So the numbers would be naturally higher than a Chow Chow(he was right mentioning that) or a Wolf Hybrid. People need to be aware, that APBT’s have been around in the public for years. Guess what the Little Rascal’s dog Petey was? YEP!! You got it. Also the RCA dog you have grown to see on the record label with the record play and horn looking symbol? YEP AN AMERICAN PIT BULL TERRIER! I can go on and on. It is so sad that we abuse any animal and they are so abused it makes me sick.
Thanks for your post Cecil! YOU ROCK.

LP

2

Linky Link to Cecil’s Column

My less than scientific view is that the pit bull’s reputation is a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy. They are rumored to be merciless killers (with just enough truth in the rumor to make it seem plausible). Jerks who want merciless killer dogs get them and raise them to be merciless killers. Reputation increases. Lather, rinse, repeat.

3

I’m sorry, but this is incorrect. Nipper the dog was a fox terrier.

http://www.designboom.com/history/nipper.html

4

Wikipedia implies that the dog’s breed is not decisively known, although it doesn’t yet cite a source supporting that implication.
Powers &8^]

5

Wikipedia may imply it but they have no real evidence. I also went by the following references:

Cowie, Jefferson R. “Capital moves: RCA’s seventy-year quest for cheap labor” pg. 12 & 142.

Fischer, Paul D. “The Sooy Dynasty of Camden, New Jersey: Victor’s First Family of Recording” For: 2nd Art Of Record Production Conference, Edinburgh, Scotland, Sept. 8 – 10, 2006.

Morse, Deborah Denenholz and Danahay, Martin A. “Victorian animal dreams: representations of animals in Victorian literature” pg. 19

Rice, Thomas J. “His Master’s Voice and Joyce” European Joyce Studies, Cultural Studies of James Joyce 18 (2003):149-166.

Siefert, Marsha. “Aesthetics, Technology, and the Capitalization of Culture: How the Talking Machine Became a Musical Instrument” Science in Context (1995), 8:417-449.

Vanderlip, Sharon Lynn. “Fox terriers: everything about history, care, nutrition, handling, and behavior” pg. 10-11.

FWIW I did search the trademarks in a couple of countries (including the US) and was unable to definitively see the dog breed listed.

But what do I know, compared to the Nobel laureates at Wikipedia?

(However, note that some sources do report the dog as being a pit bull. “The Mythology of Dogs: Canine Legend” by Laura Hausman, arguably not a very scholarly textbook, lists nipper as a “pit bull.”)

6

Obviously you’ve never seen a pitbull attack another dog.Compared to any other breed of dog yes their jaws do seem to lock.Most dogs will bite in a snapping manner ,biting several times with small fast bites.Pitbulls grab hold and will try and shake their “prey” to death.I’ve tried to breakup several pitbull attacks,only thing that worked was when I shoved a garden hose on full blast down it’s throat.Any breed of dog can bite,it’s just alot more serious when its a dog with a huge mouth and teeth and an unbelievably strong jaw coupled with being bred to fight.Do a little google research people there are news reports of pit bulls attacking horses,bulls,donkeys and a whole lotta people and kids!

7

Ignorant hearsay. I think fighting the ignorance about pit bulls is going to take a long time.

Ok, let’s deal with one point first. You’ve never seen any other breeds grab something and shake? Really? Come on… If you’ve ever seen dogs playing, they do this all the time. All breeds. My Vizsla (who is an incredibly sweet and friendly dog) does this. All breeds will also grab and shake if they are in a fighting mode–guard dogs’ instincts already lie in this direction, which is honed by their trainers. Note that pit bulls are considered a poor choice for guard dogs: that they’re not innately aggressive towards humans being the main problem.

Yes, bites from large dogs (labs, retrievers, Great Danes, rottweilers, etc.) are worse than the bites of smaller dogs. Wow. Imagine that.

However, there is absolutely nothing biologically distinctive about the anatomy of the American Pit Bull Terrier to back the idiotic claims of “jaw locking” in any way that isn’t basically true of all dog species.

APBTs, by the way, were bred to fight other dogs. Not people. Their physical build certainly would give them some advantages in such situations, but most of what you describe is just ludicrous. They have to be trained (read: tortured and provoked) to fight; fighting aggressiveness towards both dogs and humans is just not something they just do instinctively. All dogs will display aggression towards humans and other dogs under certain circumstances, of course.

Your ability to do “google research” is pretty sorry, mainly owing to your credulousness and inability to use critical thinking.

8

You’ve never seen any other breeds grab something and shake? Really? Come on… If you’ve ever seen dogs playing, they do this all the time. All breeds. My Vizsla (who is an incredibly sweet and friendly dog) does this

How stupid is this statement.No i’ve never seen another breed grab another dog by the head and shake them till they are dead or near dead.I’ve seen pitbulls do it at least 4 times in person.Once to my 10 lb.terrier mix.[SIZE=“2”][COLOR=“Black”]APBTs, by the way, were bred to fight other dogs. Not people.What does that matter to the little kids that are mauled andd /or killed each year by these dogs? [COLOR=“black”][COLOR=“Black”]Their physical build certainly would give them some advantages in such situations, but most of what you describe is just ludicrous. They have to be trained (read: tortured and provoked) to fight; fighting aggressiveness towards both dogs and humans is just not something they just do instinctively. All dogs will display aggression towards humans and other dogs under certain circumstances, of course[/COLOR][/COLOR].
The dog im talking about wasnt trained tortured or provoked it lived 2 houses away with a single mom and 3 kids.I hit and kicked that dog for at least a minute with my steel toed workboots on until finally the neighbor kids managed to turn on garden hose and hand it to me,by then i was exhausted from kicking that poor excuse for a pet in the ribs and the head.Finally he let go and ran home.My dog s eye was hanging out of the socket and he had 3 molars broke off and stuck in the roof of his mouth as well as a broken leg and ribs.It cost me almost $2,000 in vet bills.The next day the dogs owner tried to come over and yell at me because her dog could hardly get up from me kicking it in the ribs repeatedly.I showed her my dogs wounds and she started crying and apolagizing.Needless to say she got rid of the beast soon after.[/COLOR][/SIZE]LOL YOUR STATEMENT “[SIZE=“2”][COLOR=“black”][COLOR=“Black”]THEY HAVE TO BE TRAINED TO FIGHT AND BE AGGRESIVE AND ISNT SOMETHING THEY DO BY INSTINCT”[/COLOR]is about as asnine a statement i’ve ever seen![/COLOR][/SIZE]Yes, bites from large dogs (labs, retrievers, Great Danes, rottweilers, etc.) are worse than the bites of smaller dogs. Wow. Imagine that.
As a matter of fact smartass ,I witnessed a 16 year old girl get bit in the lip by a friend of mines great dane,We were sitting watching tv and she was petting her and boom she bit her and cut up her lips pretty good but it was a quick snap and it was over within 1 second.Firemen came and took her to hospital as she was bleeding alot.Had that been a pitbull bite no doubt it wouldve been alot worse even though the great danes mouth/teeth are much larger.Your seriously deluded if you think pitbulls are no more deadly than any other breed .WAKE UP!!!

9

**Mr. Merritt Clifton, editor of Animal People News,[24] has compiled from press reports a log of dog attack deaths and severe bites in the United States and Canada from September 1982 through January 1, 2008. The study methodology counted attacks “by dogs of clearly identified breed type or ancestry, as designated by animal control officers or others with evident expertise, [that] have been kept as pets.” Mr. Clifton acknowledges that the log “is by no means a complete list of fatal or otherwise serious dog attacks” since it excludes “dogs whose breed type may be uncertain, … attacks by police dogs, guard dogs, and dogs trained specifically to fight…”
The study found reports of 264 people killed by dogs over the 24-year period, of which “pit bull terrier” or mixes thereof were reportedly responsible for killing 137, or about 43 percent, of the 314 people killed by dogs in the attacks identified in the study. The breed with the next-highest number of attributed fatalities was the Rottweiler and mixes thereof, with 67 fatalities or about 21 percent of the study-identified fatalities; in aggregate, pit bulls, rottweilers, and mixes thereof were involved in about 64% of the study-identified fatalities."[25]
In the 2006 edition of his report, Mr. Clifton concluded

“Temperament is not the issue, nor is it even relevant. What is relevant is actuarial risk. If almost any other dog has a bad moment, someone may get bitten, but will not be maimed for life or killed, and the actuarial risk is accordingly reasonable. If a pit bull terrier…has a bad moment, often someone is maimed or killed–and that has now created off-the-chart actuarial risk, for which the dogs as well as their victims are paying the price.”[26]
Fatalities reported in the United States (2006-2008)
Year Total Deaths Deaths (percentage) involving pit bull-type dogs
2006 30 16 (53%)
2007 35 20 (57%)
2008 23 16 (65%)
SURE SEEMS QUITE A BIT HIGHER THAN ANY OTHER SINGLE BREED OF DOG,OHHH WAIT IT’S HIGHER THAN ALL OTHER BREEDS OF DOGS COMBINED!**

10

Personal insults are not permitted in this forum, Knorf and you’ve been here long enough to know this. I’ve issued an Official Warning. Please do not do this again.

Now, hamhawk, welcome to the Straight Dope Message Board, we’re glad to have you here. Speaking as a moderator, often newcomers respond in kind, and I’m very pleased that you didn’t. You’ve challenged what he said, but not the poster himself which is exactly right and within our rules. Much appreciated.

You might not have read Cecil’s original article: Are pit bulls really all that dangerous? - The Straight Dope
You might want to do that (Cecil’s articles are what we’re all about.) He does say that there are lots of studies, and that there is considerable difficulty in knowing breed in attacks (around half of a study of many thousands couldn’t identify breed.) However, the trend is quite clear, although there is certainly some over-statement.

I’m sorry you had such a horrible experience, but thanks for sharing it with us. And, as I say, welcome to the Straight Dope Message Boards. Hang around, take a look at some of the other discussions, and we hope you’ll like it here.

11

Oh, god, it’s the Clifton report again.

That’s a seriously flawed study in terms of methodology and conclusions drawn. It relied on self-report of breed by the victim in most breed-identification cases. And I don’t think John Q. Public can tell a pit bull from a hole in the ground, but if you prompt him, he’ll tell you he thinks it was a pit bull, because he’s heard they’re dangerous.

And the way Clifton injects his own biases and purposes into his conclusions is laughable. His conclusions seem to be based on his own goals and what he wants to say, not the data at hand. His understanding of correlation and causation is appalling. This is not a good scientific study.

12

Hamhawk, not only has the Clifton report been exposed as scientific fraud, but the scientists at the CDC say that you cannot compile such a report scientifically. ALL dog bite statistics are suspect, and the ones purporting to show one breed bites more than another have been specifically repudiated by the scientists at the CDC.

There is currently no accurate way to identify the number of dogs of a particular breed, and consequently no measure to determine which breeds are more likely to bite or kill.

The CDC recommends the American Veterinary Medical Association (AVMA) Task Force on Canine Aggression paper, which also says:

In other words, don’t bother looking for another study. The country’s leading scientific, medical, and veterinary authorities agree with the historical record (remember all the slaughter of innocents over the last two hundred years when pit bulls were among America’s most popular family dogs? No, and neither does anyone else, because it didn’t happen) and the words of dog experts and trainers that there is no way to determine what your cite claims – and further, that there is no pit bull problem. There’s hardly even a dog bite problem – in 2008, there were 23 deaths from dog attack in the US, that’s just not enough to be worth arguing about, it’s a completely freak event statistically. But even if there was a dog bite problem, it’s a problem of training, chaining, and human mismanagement, not breed tendencies.

LALALEXIDANCER, your heart is in the right place, but I need to make two corrections.

Firstly, the AKC doesn’t recognize pit bulls as American Pit Bull Terriers; they do recognize American Staffordshire Terriers, which are essentially the same thing. UKC and other organizations use American Pit Bull Terrier.

Secondly, and more importantly, pit bull bite force is not at all “2nd in strength” or anything like that. Bite force isn’t even breed-dependent – Dr. Brady Barr of National Geographic studied bite force (some footage here) and concluded (although this conclusion is not shown in the video) that bite force in dogs varies only with the size of the dog.

Large dogs will have more bite force. Pit bulls are medium-sized dogs (the breed standard is 25-50 pounds for a female, 30-60 for a male, one standard goes to 65 for a male but that’s the highest) and consequently will have lower bite force than many large dog breeds.

Incidentally, in the video, Dr. Barr specifically remarks on the Rottweiler hanging on and points out that ALL wild dogs/wolves do that to bring down prey – the “locking jaws” and “death grip” myth is a product of poor education, not one breed being mean.

13

There’s hardly even a dog bite problem – in 2008, there were 23 deaths from dog attack in the US, that’s just not enough to be worth arguing about, it’s a completely freak event statistically. But even if there was a dog bite problem, it’s a problem of training, chaining, and human mismanagement, not breed tendencies.

If you or one of your kids were one of those 23 deaths then I think it would be a problem for you wouldnt it?I bet most breeds of dogs killed nobody last year in the u.s. LOL HMM I DON’T REALLY THINK THE CDC HAS THE MOST STERLING REPUTATION EITHER ITS KINDA SAD TO SEE HOW YOU PITBULL DEFENDERS GRASP AT STRAWS AND TRY AND “SPIN” THINGS IN UR ATTEMPTS TO CONVINCE THE WORLD PITS ARE ALL JUST DOCILE TEDDY BEARS…

14

i believe every word u type hamhawk lol

15

You know, around here we make fun of the “Won’t somebody think of the CHILDREN!” argument, because it is almost always used speciously and inappropriately, as in this case.

If you’d bothered to read my links, you’d see that 23 children were NOT killed by dogs in 2008 – 23 people of all descriptions were. And remember, if you can keep a fact in that mind, that’s by all dog types, NOT pit bulls.

You don’t even know the names of those people, do you? Yet you’re so concerned about them. Guess what? I know their names. A pretty thorough breakout of the deaths is here.

15 of the deaths were under age 6. I haven’t bothered to break out the other ages, but offhand, I see one kid was 7, so we’ll say 16 kids in 2008.

How many kids were killed by their own cribs in 2008?

You don’t know, do you?

Why don’t you know? Cribs kill more people than dogs do, and far more children than dogs do, and proportionally even more children than pit bulls do. If you’re thinking of the children you have an entire way of life (using cribs) to crusade against before you get down to dogs, and of course pit bulls are only one subset of dogs.

I’ll make it easy for you, another link (in case you’re paying any attention to the facts).

Behold.

Forty! That dwarfs 16!

And other bedding?

NINE HUNDRED!?!?!

Won’t you think of the children? Please go fix the beding industry, and parental habits (that’s two – two – two crusades in one!) before taking on the crib issue, and do THAT before you get down to addressing the dog threat, and deal with THAT before you narrow it down to the miniscule, statistically insignificant pit bull threat. Or the meteor threat if you prefer; once you’re dealing with 16 deaths out of 300 million, you’re dealing with fringe events.

But every second you’ve spent fighting pit bulls in this thread, you’ve allowed a threat more than 56 times as dangerous to go unaddressed.

You’re practically a murderer.

16

You’re right. Almost no dogs period kill anyone. But there’s a Jack Russell Terrier in the list I linked to. And when HE killed a human, guess who the police came and took away to be killed?

The Jack Russell Terrier – AND a pit bull who the authorities, family, and wwwitneses all agreed had not even been present. No pit bull was even in the building when that JRT killed, but they found a pit bull outside, knew he was innocent, and killed him anyway. And it made the news.

So there’s one of your pit bull news items. Except that, in real life, another dog did the deed and a pit bull shared in paying the price.

17

Uh, no it’s not. Pit bull fatal attacks disproportionately affect children. It’s entirely appropriate to think of the children in cases where children are disproportionately affected.

Are you shitting me? The SIDS rate is one of the major campaigns being fought by new-parent-educators, with the Back to Sleep Campaign. And new standards for cribs are coming out all the time: my expecting friend was at Babies R Us last week grilling them on the standards. People DO care about these issues… The difference is that cribs and unsafe blankets don’t have obscurantist apologists desperately fighting against safety.

Golden retrievers were bred to retrieve things, and anyone who’s been around one knows that they LOVE to retrieve. Lhasa Apsos were bred as temple guardians, and anyone who’s been around one knows that they LOVE to guard doorways. Pit bulls were bred to fight, but man, people who have been around them just know that there’s nothing of that tendency left in them, nosiree, any claim to the contrary is unscientific nonsense! Pit bulls, they’re a blank fuckin slate is what they are.

When I worked at an animal shelter, one of my first jobs related to a dozen or so pits that came in from a dogfighter. Lots of them were very young puppies. When they came in, they played like normal puppies did. BUt as they grew up, those puppies began to fight one another bloody in their cage, in a way that puppies just do not do. They had to be separated to keep them from maiming or killing one another.

No, breed is not a scientific concept. No, the AKC doesn’t recognize Pit Bull as a breed (which is kinda rendered irrelevant by the previous sentence). But dogfighters have spent centuries choosing the most dog-aggressive dogs to stud and whelp, breeding and inbreeding that particular psychosis onto the dogs. To suggest that their descendants are magically free of this psychosis is foolishness.

If your dog is recently descended from dogs that were chosen for “game,” they’re likely to have “game” themselves, just like descendants of retrievers will retrieve, and descendants of guardians will guard.

It’s true that in recent decades, fans of the pit’s appearance have been breeding them for non-psychotic traits. If your dog is recently descended from these, then maybe they have little enough of the game psychosis that they’ll be safe. But if I don’t know your dog, I have no way of knowing–and the risk that a pit has game is much greater than the risk that a poodle has game.

18

So if every person in the States had a serious dog bite injury once a year, there would be no dog bite problem as long as everyone survived. You think that’s stupid? Well, it’s the effect of what you just said. And what you said was very, very stupid.

Children have to sleep somewhere, and vast amounts of time and effort goes into trying to minimise and prevent the deaths surrounding that activity.
You don’t have to own a dog capable of causing serious injury or death. You could just not have a dog, or you could have a dog that was much less likely to cause harm.

See the difference?

19

I wasn’t meaning to imply that Wikipedia was infallible on the topic, just that it was likely there was some evidence for multiple possible breeds.

If you found some good resources, I suggest you edit the Wikipedia article accordingly.
Powers &8^]

20

Sure, I understood what you meant, no problemo.

There are many reasons why I am not going to do that, none of which belongs in this thread.