What are the two different types of Jews (ethnicity)

[Transistor Rhythm]

I've noticed that Jewish people tend to be physically split into two different camps when it comes to appearance. On one hand, you have the sort of classic jew stereotype of Woody Allen, the Coen Brothers, a Rick Moranis, or the fictional character Barton Fink.

On the other, there's the more "wild-looking" camp with squintier eyes - a Bill Maher, Barbara Streisand, a Spielberg, or a Sarah Jessica Parker.

What are these two different groups? What are their origins? Do they have specific names for the two different camps?

I used to have two bosses, both jewish, who were one of each, and they used to joke about it. "Bill [of the second group] here's spent some time in the desert, if you know what I mean," to which Bill would reply, "Well, we can't all be accountants and dentists" to the more Woody Allen-looking guy.

[lazybratsche]

Historically, there have been two separate Jewish populations: the Ashkenazi who lived in Central and Eastern Europe, and the Sephardic who lived primarily around the Mediterranean. Basically, at some point each group went and settled in a different part of the world, with plenty of intermixing with local populations. These are admittedly very broad categories, and not as distinct in the modern age with all of the traveling that people do.

Honestly, however, I have no idea if this corresponds to the differences you perceive. To me, both of the groups of celebrities you point out look like they probably have Eastern European ancestry.

[FriarTed]

Well, the first thing I thought of was Ashkenazik (sp?), which is the more Eastern European type, and Sephardic, which has been seen as more Mediterranean.

However, I think all you named lean towards the Ashkenazik. (Btw, Bill Maher is just half-Jewish.)

[Diogenes the Cynic]

Ashkenazic and Sephardic Jews

[Tours d'Argent]

Originally Posted by Transistor Rhythm

I've noticed that Jewish people tend to be physically split into two different camps when it comes to appearance. On one hand, you have the sort of classic jew stereotype of Woody Allen, the Coen Brothers, a Rick Moranis, or the fictional character Barton Fink.

On the other, there's the more "wild-looking" camp with squintier eyes - a Bill Maher, Barbara Streisand, a Spielberg, or a Sarah Jessica Parker.

What are these two different groups? What are their origins? Do they have specific names for the two different camps?

Please tell me this is some kind of joke. You've basically taken the dorkiest, most cliched stereotypes of Jews and you're using these as the best examples of the type of classifications you're talking about? "Wild looking?" How is the second group any more "wild looking" than the first group? Everyone you've mentioned is basically a standard Ashkenazic Jew of European descent (and none of them are very good-looking people.) And Bill Maher is only half-Jewish, as is Sarah Jessica Parker.

All Jews are not dorks with big noses who look like Woody Allen. Your sample group is kind of unfair.

[Keeve]

Ditto what Argent Towers said.

[PrettyVacant]

If you go back 2,500 years Jews are the same ethnic group as Palestinians. Beyond that, no idea other than it's a much studied group in DNA terms.

[Translucent Daydream]

Originally Posted by Diogenes the Cynic

Ashkenazic and Sephardic Jews

I couldn't get this link to work. I just got this:

File Not Found
The file name you entered was not found on this server.
In a moment, you will be taken to the Judaism 101 home page,
or you can click here to go to that page immediately.

[Telemark]

http://www.jewfaq.org/ashkseph.htm

ETA: I agree with others that your examples make no sense.

[Inigo Montoya]

Well, there's Wild Jews and Domesticated Jews ....

[smiling bandit]

Originally Posted by PrettyVacant

If you go back 2,500 years Jews are the same ethnic group as Palestinians. Beyond that, no idea other than it's a much studied group in DNA terms.

Ok, well I just accidentally closed my long reply. I won't rewrite it all.

Short form: that's kinda not really at all true. Palestinians are ethnically and culturally Arabs and identify as such - and there was no Palestine then. While there were no hard borders, Arab settlements were mostly in Jordan and Sinai. Arabs are a Semitic people, but thay would have been distinct tribes and smewhat different ethnicities. Arabs were not Jews, even leaving religion aside. However, there was no clear-cut concept of ethnicity then (or today for what matter).

[Transistor Rhythm]

Originally Posted by Telemark

http://www.jewfaq.org/ashkseph.htm

ETA: I agree with others that your examples make no sense.

I don't really understand this. I present two categories of people that look completely different almost to the point of looking like different races.

Look at Leonard Cohen , Jason Schwartzmann and Matthew Broderick.

Now look at Jennifer Aniston and Stephen Spielberg.

It's night and day!

[Marley23]

Originally Posted by Transistor Rhythm

I don't really understand this. I present two categories of people that look completely different almost to the point of looking like different races.

Have you considered the possibility that your experience is misleading you? Because your examples don't make any sense. Argent Towers is correct that you're trafficking in stereotypes. There are different groups among people with Jewish ancestry, but there's no connection between those groups and the people you are typing in your OP.

By the way, John Turturro (Barton Fink) isn't Jewish at all. Both his parents are Italian. He played a Jewish character, as many other Italians have done, because many people see both groups as "ethnic," which is close enough for Hollywood's purposes. Turturro achieved a brilliant simulacrum of Jewishness by wearing glasses and wearing a frizzy hairpiece.

[Marley23]

By the way, which of the two groups does Lenny Kravitz fit into?

[please921]

Are you sure it's not just the glasses?

I think you're just seeing a normal variance among Ashkenazi Jews. For example, if someone hasn't been exposed to Asians, he's likely to think that "they all look alike". However, once he studies their features a bit more, he will see that there are slight distinguishing variations among all of the individuals in that ethnic group.

The impression I get is that now that you have the opportunity to sit and study Jewish faces, you are able to see the differences between them.

Perhaps adding to your confusion is that you've heard of the fact that Jews can be split up into two different ethnicities, namely Ashkenazi and Sephardi, and you are trying to place these individuals into two different groups, even though they are all (to my knowledge) of Ashkenazi ancestry.

Edited to Add: The people you place in the first group all have dark hair, while the people in the second group have light/gray hair. Perhaps that plays a part as well.

[kombatminipig]

You do realize that there's nothing remotely Jewish about Jennifer Aniston, and Broderick is only half Jewish?

I present you instead with Vladimir Putin and Mikhail Gorbachev

Night and day, eh? Individual variations within a single ethnic group can be as large as variations between different ones.

[An Gadaí]

And how does Optimus Prime fit into this schema?

[Happy Lendervedder]

Dude, Jennifer Aniston is Greek-Irish-Scottish.

And I agree, I think your examples are strange. They don't look that different (other than being different people, obviously).

[Dr. Drake]

Originally Posted by smiling bandit

Palestinians are ethnically and culturally Arabs and identify as such - and there was no Palestine then. While there were no hard borders, Arab settlements were mostly in Jordan and Sinai. Arabs are a Semitic people, but thay would have been distinct tribes and smewhat different ethnicities. Arabs were not Jews, even leaving religion aside. However, there was no clear-cut concept of ethnicity then (or today for what matter).

You last sentence is factually incorrect. I think you may be using "ethnicity" incorrectly. An ethnos is a cultural group, with a common language, customs, usually religion, and, because of that, genetics. Naturally that eventually has an effect on appearance. In the ancient world, when cities were smaller and more of the population was rural, ethnicity was very clearly delineated, usually as a shorthand by language spoken or geography. Arabs and Jews share a related language, of course, so ultimately they would share a cultural ancestry, but that's a few thousand years earlier than most people care about.

[Tours d'Argent]

All Jews started out as your basic Semitic type, like the Arabs. Generally dark-skinned, dark-haired, hairy people with curly hair and Semitic facial features. When the Jews began the "diaspora" and migrated around the world, they went to different places. The Sephardic Jews lived in Arab countries and eventually Spain and Italy, therefore they look closer to what the "original" Jews probably looked like, i.e. dark. Jewish women were of course raped in these countries but they were raped by people who also came from Semitic origins, as well as some Moors and other dark people in Spain and Italy, and so they remained darker generally. The Ashkenazi Jews (and I always found it odd how that word contains the word "nazi") traveled through Europe, and so their women were raped by Europeans. That is how DNA for light hair, light skin, blue eyes, and what have you, got into the bloodlines. I mean, look at my picture in my user profile - you are not going to see hair like that on a Semite from ancient Judea, even though I am 100 percent "ethnically" Jewish, there is obviously a majority of European genes in my background.

So as a general rule Sephardic Jews look more like Arabs and Ashkenazi Jews look more like Europeans. But there are always going to be exceptions because so many different kinds of DNA mixed together over the past 2000 years.

[Marley23]

Originally Posted by Transistor Rhythm

I present two categories of people that look completely different almost to the point of looking like different races.

Posting again to address the last couple of words here: most people don't consider Jews to be a race.

Leonard Cohen doesn't look a thing like Matthew Broderick, and Stephen Spielberg doesn't look anything like Jennifer Aniston. There aren't any reliable Internet cites for Aniston being Jewish, but even if she were, there's zero resemblance whatsoever between those two people. And I think that speaks volumes about the question you're asking.

[Marley23]

Why the fixation on rape, Argent Towers? It sounds like you're assuming Jews always intermarry and interbreed, which they don't. I'm sure they do those things at a high rate, but still.

[Tours d'Argent]

It's not a fixation, it's just a fact. I mean, I did take many classes in Jewish history for my BA in history, and in fact I would have had a Jewish Studies minor if I had taken Hebrew. One of the things you learn when you study the history of the Jewish people is that their women were very often raped. Intermarriage between Jews and Gentiles was unbelievably rare; consensual sex happened occasionally, in the form of extramarital affairs, but it was also rare especially in countries where Jews lived in their own villages and not among the general population. But one needs only to read about the history of anti-Jewish violence all over the world for the past thousand years for five minutes to get an understanding of how much rape went on. I know it's an unsavory thing to think about, but that's just what happened.

[sqweels]

The OP is meshugga!

[KneadToKnow]

Originally Posted by Marley23

Why the fixation on rape, Argent Towers? It sounds like you're assuming Jews always intermarry and interbreed, which they don't. I'm sure they do those things at a high rate, but still.

Haven't read many of Argent's posts, have you, Marley?

[Tours d'Argent]

Uh...what exactly do you mean?

[KneadToKnow]

I mean that you're very diligent in keeping us educated, Argent. Be proud.

[Tours d'Argent]

If you're going to insult me in a thread where I'm just trying to provide factual advice, at least be honest about it (and clear about it, because I don't understand exactly what the hell you're trying to imply.)

[smiling bandit]

Originally Posted by Dr. Drake

You last sentence is factually incorrect. I think you may be using "ethnicity" incorrectly. An ethnos is a cultural group, with a common language, customs, usually religion, and, because of that, genetics. Naturally that eventually has an effect on appearance. In the ancient world, when cities were smaller and more of the population was rural, ethnicity was very clearly delineated, usually as a shorthand by language spoken or geography. Arabs and Jews share a related language, of course, so ultimately they would share a cultural ancestry, but that's a few thousand years earlier than most people care about.

Whole up there, bro. Ethnos is not the same as Erthnicity. The latter can be and usually is a purely genetic construct. It was not itself a major bone of contention between neighbors, however anywhere I know of in the ancient world. And it was definitely not clearly delineated in any way we moderns understand.

[Marley23]

Originally Posted by Argent Towers

One of the things you learn when you study the history of the Jewish people is that their women were very often raped. Intermarriage between Jews and Gentiles was unbelievably rare; consensual sex happened occasionally, in the form of extramarital affairs, but it was also rare especially in countries where Jews lived in their own villages and not among the general population.

I'm sure it happened a lot, such as in the wake of World War II. And yes, Jews were often ghettoized, which would have only increased the rate of intermarriage. But you pretty much blamed rape for all genetic variation among Jews, which is extreme. I don't suppose you could provide a cite for intermarriage rates or something just to back it up?

Originally Posted by KneadToKnow

I mean that you're very diligent in keeping us educated, Argent. Be proud.

I think we should drop this.

[Anne Neville]

Originally Posted by Argent Towers

Intermarriage between Jews and Gentiles was unbelievably rare

It isn't now, though. Quite a few of the Jews you'll meet who are under the age of, say, 40 will have one parent who was born Jewish and one who was not (the non-Jewish parent may or may not have converted to Judaism, but that obviously wouldn't affect their genes). And there are a fair number of Jews who are themselves converts, and have no Jewish ancestry.

[KneadToKnow]

Originally Posted by Marley23

I think we should drop this.

Done.

[Tours d'Argent]

Originally Posted by Marley23

I'm sure it happened a lot, such as in the wake of World War II. And yes, Jews were often ghettoized, which would have only increased the rate of intermarriage.

First of all it happened much more than just in the wake of World War II. You realize that Jews have lived in Europe for about 2000 years, right? And throughout all of that time, there were massive military campaigns that swept across nations, carrying with them all manner of rape and pillage. This was no means limited to the Jews or anything; this pillaging and raping affected everybody who was unfortunate enough to be in its path. You are aware that rape was pretty much universal for any village or city which was sacked by enemy soldiers? And of course the Jews got it comparatively worse than others in certain areas, like in Eastern Europe, where there were systematic pogroms specifically targeting Jews for several hundred years, in addition to the run of the mill pillaging by warbands which happened to towns of all ethnicities and religions?

As for your second point about intermarriage increasing because of ghettoization, that doesn't make sense. Did you meant to write "increased?" There were Jews who intermarried into Christian families but this would have been accompanied by a conversion to Christianity. There were not Christians converting to Judaism and intermarrying into Jewish families. There may have been one or two cases per hundred years, but otherwise this was unthinkable.

[Captain Amazing]

Originally Posted by smiling bandit

Short form: that's kinda not really at all true. Palestinians are ethnically and culturally Arabs and identify as such - and there was no Palestine then.

Yes, but the thing is, even though the area got Arabized and Islamicised, there wasn't a lot of actual migration from the Arabian peninsula. In other words, the people who lived there before the Arab conquest just started identifying themselves as Arabs after the Arab conquest, but there wasn't much in the way of actual gene pool change.

[Uncertain]

Originally Posted by smiling bandit

Arab settlements were mostly in Jordan and Sinai.

Not in Arabia? Perhaps I misunderstand what you're saying.

[Uncertain]

Although people often use "Sephardic" loosely to include Jews living in Arab countries, strictly speaking it only applies to those descended from Iberian Jews. Populations living in Arab lands are Mizrahi.

[Jragon]

Originally Posted by An Gadaí

And how does Optimus Prime fit into this schema?

He's the one that died for your sins (c.f. R. Friedman. Transformers: The Movie, The)

[Kyla]

The definition of Sephardim (Spaniards) as used in this thread is a massive oversimplification. At least in Israel, the term used is Mizrachim (Easterners). Some Mizrachim are Sephardim, but they're probably a pretty small minority of the group as a whole. For instance, one of the largest Jewish populations in the world are the Persian Jews, who are Mizrachim, but having absolutely no connection to the Spanish Jews expelled in 1492, are not Sephardim.

As I understand it, DNA tests have shown that Ashkenazim and Mizrachim are more closely related to each other than they are to the surrounding non-Jewish populations, but there are significant cultural and religious differences. Israeli Mizrachim make up the majority of the Jewish population (by a small degree), but have significantly lower socioeconomic status than Israeli Ashkenazim.

FWIW, nearly all North American Jews are Ashkenazim.

[Marley23]

Originally Posted by Argent Towers

First of all it happened much more than just in the wake of World War II.

"Such as" means the succeeding phrase will be an example. You make a good case that the raping was more common than I'd realized.

As for your second point about intermarriage increasing because of ghettoization, that doesn't make sense.

I wasn't clear. Ghettoization would have increased marriages between Jews at the expense of marriage between Jews and gentiles. I guess the former would be intramarriage and the latter would be intermarriage.

There were not Christians converting to Judaism and intermarrying into Jewish families. There may have been one or two cases per hundred years, but otherwise this was unthinkable.

This really cries out for a cite.

[Transistor Rhythm]

Huh - ignorance fought!

[Punoqllads]

Here: assume that every 20 years, a Jewish community loses 0.3% of its population from people leaving and are replaced by Gentiles who marry into the community. From that, the estimated Gentile genetic heritage in the Jewish community after 1500 years would be approximately 1 - (1 - 0.003)⁷⁵. That's about 20%.

[Dr. Drake]

Originally Posted by smiling bandit

Whole up there, bro. Ethnos is not the same as Erthnicity. The latter can be and usually is a purely genetic construct. It was not itself a major bone of contention between neighbors, however anywhere I know of in the ancient world. And it was definitely not clearly delineated in any way we moderns understand.

Well, if "we moderns" is you, "we" have a radically different notion of ethnicity. The OED mentions "culture" / "cultural," but the words "gene" and "genetic" are absent. The "ethnos" is the group of people; "ethnicity" is the quality of belonging to it. Genetics is not involved. Adopted children are not of a different ethnicity from their parents. My grandfather is genetically Swedish. He has never been to Sweden, does not speak Swedish, did not marry a Swede, and does not practice any distinctively Swedish customs. How could you say he was ethnically Swedish? He has nothing in common with the Swedes except genetics.

Some people (notably U.S. government bureaucrats) use "ethnicity" to mean "race" on forms, because it is felt to be more polite, but even "race" isn't a genetic construct but a social one.

Originally Posted by OED

Pertaining to race; peculiar to a race or nation; ethnological. Also, pertaining to or having common racial, cultural, religious, or linguistic characteristics, esp. designating a racial or other group within a larger system

[wmfellows]

Originally Posted by smiling bandit

Ok, well I just accidentally closed my long reply. I won't rewrite it all.

Short form: that's kinda not really at all true. Palestinians are ethnically and culturally Arabs and identify as such - and there was no Palestine then. While there were no hard borders, Arab settlements were mostly in Jordan and Sinai. Arabs are a Semitic people, but thay would have been distinct tribes and smewhat different ethnicities. Arabs were not Jews, even leaving religion aside. However, there was no clear-cut concept of ethnicity then (or today for what matter).

Well, I think your correction needs a correction. The "Arabs" of the Levant are acculturated Arabs, not all descended from the original Arabs. One would expect that a good percentage of Palestinians are in fact descendants of Cananites, Hellenized Jews etc. as in fact are pretty much of the same descent group as the original Jewish source population.

[DanBlather]

Which are the short Jews that live under bridges?

[panache45]

Originally Posted by Marley23

By the way, which of the two groups does Lenny Kravitz fit into?

The same group as Whoopi Goldberg.

[wmfellows]

Originally Posted by Argent Towers

First of all it happened much more than just in the wake of World War II. You realize that Jews have lived in Europe for about 2000 years, right?

I think it would have been worth mentioning speculation regarding the founder effect, that is initial Jewish communities in farther reaches of Europe lacked sufficient womenfolk and initially brought in women by conversion (a potentially ongoing process). This would seem as plausible an explanation as just rape.

Originally Posted by Captain Amazing

Yes, but the thing is, even though the area got Arabized and Islamicised, there wasn't a lot of actual migration from the Arabian peninsula. In other words, the people who lived there before the Arab conquest just started identifying themselves as Arabs after the Arab conquest, but there wasn't much in the way of actual gene pool change.

Bollocks, I missed this. Well, my comment adds to the Captain's

[Tours d'Argent]

Marley23, I think the burden is on you to provide a cite that any meaningful numbers of European Gentiles ever converted to Judaism. I took Jewish history classes for five years, mostly concerning the experiences of Jews in Europe, and I never learned of any European Christians converting to Judaism. There would have been no reason for them to. Jews do not seek out converts. They do not go around trying to "witness" to other religious groups. And there would have been no incentive whatsoever for a Gentile to become a Jew anywhere in Europe.

[Marley23]

Originally Posted by Argent Towers

Marley23, I think the burden is on you to provide a cite that any meaningful numbers of European Gentiles ever converted to Judaism.

I don't think I asserted they did. But I don't think there would be a lot of numbers to support either case.

Jews do not seek out converts.

I'm well aware. Even so, I've known a handful of converts.

They do not go around trying to "witness" to other religious groups.

This is mostly true, but the Lubavitchers might like to have a word with you about it.

[Punoqllads]

Originally Posted by Marley23

This is mostly true, but the Lubavitchers might like to have a word with you about it.

If you ask the Lubavitchers, they'll tell you that they're not witnessing to other religious groups, they're only witnessing to Jews.

[Henrichek]

Well, I learned something too. I find it quite interesting that there's a special word, gentiles, to represent non-jews. Are there any similar terms for other non- ethnicities? Or is it religion-based?