Why the hell are people of Jewish faith called a "Race"

The BBQ Pit
1

What is up with intelligent people calling those that
embrace the Jewish faith a “race?”

Even the poster (cant remember who now) with the thread
“Let the race baiting begin” implied that Jews are a “race”

Since when are people of a particular faith labeled a
“race?”

WTF? Even the national media takes this line.

Its just a fucking religion. I don’t hear about the Christian race, or the Hindu race, or the Catholic race.

As an athiest, I wonder, are Jews so reviled around the
world that they must be labeled as a race, to make it
“easier” to give them shit? Sounds like
religious bigotry and bullshit to me. (yep, same old shit)

Am I a racist then to be pissed at the Jehovahs Witnesses
“race” that bang on my door Saturday mornings?

Just curious…

2

My humble suggestion:

Request that this thread be closed.

Learn more about Judaism.

3

Gotta agree with Green Bean. Judaism can be defined either as a religious group or an ethnic group. Jews are also known as children of Israel because they are a people that, as a nation, were dispersed or oppressed from Israel. Then, after the Holocaust, “some Jews founded a homeland in the land of Israel where there ancestors had once walked.” (Mary Pat Fisher, Living Religions, 1999).

4

I dont see how my knowledge of Judaism has anything
to do with my OP.

I simply asked a question, your response is ambiguous
at best.

I am not anti-Semitic; as an athiest, I dont really
care. As a matter of fact, as I pointed out, rather
obliquely I guess, I think Jews are persecuted far more
than other religions.

However, my point was, as I think I made clear,
why are people of the Jewish faith considered
a “race”? Period.

5

Okay, say I am a Southern Baptist Christian.

Why can’t Christians be called a race then?

Believe me, I am not knocking you, but why cant
I call myself a member of the Christian race?

(just making a point)

Race, as defined by science, is not derived
from religious preference.

Personally, I acknowledge the human race, not
black, brown, red, green, or fucking purple.

Or whatever god you might believe in, so dont
attack me on a perceived slight, It was a simple
and legitimate question.

6

A simple look at history will provide the answer.

This is a people with one religion. AFAIK, they spread with the Roman Empire, providing services throughout the Roman Empire. They stuck to themselves for a couple of thousand years. Hence, loosely they are still the original people that left their homeland 2000 years ago. That’s loosely, because Jews intermarried a lot, nowadays many European, American, etc. Jews from overseas don’t much look like the Jews who stayed in the Holy Land.

Now, on the other hand, Catholics did not begin as one people and then spread to different countries. Christianity and other reglions like Buddhism spread into different countries and races.

I think questions like the OP should be answered. IF the OP was racist (and I don’t think he is) denying him the answer would not make him any less racist. However, answering the question might clear up any misunderstandings.

7

Okay, “race” is silly. Race is probably not an appropriate term for any population or sub-group of the human race. However, there is an “ethnic” quality to Jewish identity, mainly, I think, because Judaism isn’t a proselytizing religion. (You never get guys in yarmulkes going door to door wanting to share the good news about Yahweh with you.) Therefore, “Jew” has two meanings: 1.) a believer in the religion of Judaism 2.) a member of the ethno-cultural group whose traditional religious faith is Judaism, regardless of the level of commitment that particular person actually has to those religious traditions. Thus, Woody Allen is both Jewish and an atheist. (To some extent Jewish identity is destroyed by conversion to a different religion, but not always entirely even there.) It goes without saying that even in the non-religious sense, Jewishness is cultural, not biological–Nazi fantasies about “Jewish blood” are complete nonsense.

This sort of thing is not unheard of with other religious/ethnic groups. Actually, lots of ethnic identities get “entangled” with religious identities–Irishness with Catholicism; the Scandinavian nationalities with Lutheranism; etc. It’s not unheard of for other religious identities to become ethnic groups, either. In Bosnia, for example, “Muslim” doesn’t necessarily mean “One who professes that there is no God but Allah and Muhammed is His prophet”; it can also merely one “One whose ancestors used to profess that there is no God but Allah and Muhammed is His prophet”. To some extent, there seems to be a certain “ethnicity” to American Catholicism–you see people who are basically agnostics referred to as “lapsed Catholics”, whereas you are less likely to hear about “lapsed Baptists” or “lapsed Foursquare Church of the Living Gospel of the Holy Spirit, Inc.-ians”. (Although I’ve seen libertarian-conservative satirist P.J. O’Rourke refer to himself as a “semi-agnostic lapsed Methodist from Ohio”.) Again, while Catholicism has certainly been an ardently missionary faith in other times and places, the fact is that American Catholics don’t really go door to door with leaflets much; most new Catholics in this country are made the in a nine-month process by unskilled labor. On the other hand, referring to the “evangelical race” or any sort of evangelical ethno-cultural identity would make less sense, since the whole point of evangelical Christianity is to convert people of all ethnic groups and “races”.

P.S. Incidentally, I resent your repeated references to yourself as being “athiest”. Why, I can disbelieve in more gods than anyone on this message board! I disbelieve in more gods than you’ve ever heard of before I even eat breakfast! Allah, Brahma, Jesus, Quetzalcoatl, Saturn, Thor, Zeus–you name 'em, I don’t believe in 'em! I’ve never believed in a god in my life–not even when I was a wee lad…

8

Another difference between Christianity and Judaism.

Many Christian groups try to convert others, hence you can have many different race Christians. But AFAIK Jews don’t try to convert others actively. You’re born one. Most people don’t convert unless they marry one. Now if Judaism were to try and convert people of all different nationalities and colors 10 generations down the road I don’t think people would discriminate against them anymore.

In WWII they were an easy target because they kept to themselves. If they had intermarried more and converted a lot of Germans they Hitler would be hard pressed to find them to kill. But the cost would be losing their ethnic/cultural/genetic identity, and it this which made them stand out.

And anti-Semite is wrongly used a lot. Arabs are also Semites.

9

Okay, my response was ambiguous because this isn’t the place. If you wanted to complain about Jews, though I wouldn’t know why, this would be the place. If you had a legitimate question, take it to General Questions.
Now this is a legitimate question, if posed differently. Don’t get me wrong, I was simply suggesting since you didn’t know, you shouldn’t be complaining. You’ve now gotten a couple of responses that aren’t “ambiguous at best” as you put it.

10

Yeah, what Rob said.

The fact that this was posted in the Pit and the language that the OP used leads me to believe that this was not simple request for information. Therefore, I did not answer it as if it were phrased politely and posted in GQ.

The OP seems to have been here long enough to know that if his question were phrased “Why are people of Jewish faith called a ‘Race’?” and posted in GQ, then his question would have been answered and nobody would have accused him of being an anti-Semite. Questions like the above get asked in GQ all the time.

But the forum, the thread title, the liberal smattering of swear words, and the assumption that he would be accused of being anti-Semitic and racist suggested that there was more going on here than a sincere attempt to learn more about Judaism.

And if he did try and learn more about Judaism, in a place other than the BBQ Pit, he would find the answer to his question. (BTW–in a surprise attack of civility among the Pitizens, the OP’s question has been nicely addressed in this thread.)

11

Read this thread with some interest. Apologize for playing the devil’s advocate but I just had to point something out.
If you’ve ever visited Israel, you would see Jews from a vast variety of “racial” backgrounds ranging from blond and blue eyed European to black African. I understand how this could have happened over the past 2000 years as has been well explained by previous posts on this thread. Interestingly, the various (apparently) different Jewish groups tend to stick to their own within Israel. Although they share their race/religion, there are ethnic and political differences. To such an extent that white Jewish families frown upon their children marrying black Jews and vice versa. Racism within the race? It is somewhat contradicting and would suggest a religion rather than a race.

I am not of the Jewish race/faith, so I am sure there is an explanation for which I am unaware. As an outside observer it is what it appears.

PS, I don’t think this thread belongs in the pit.

12

There is a difference between a Hebrew (or a Jew) and one who practices Judaism.

A Jew or Hebrew (the terms are used almost interchangably now) are a specific Semitic race tracing their descent from Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. The linage is traced on the maternal side, IIRC. Yes, you have to keep records, which is why most of the OT is a record of family linage.

Anyone can practice Judaism, and try to follow the Jewish Law. That doesn’t make them Jewish, just as someone who is a Southern Baptist doesn’t necessarily mean they’re a Christian.

If an Irish Catholic’s mother is Jewish, then they are Jewish, regardless of what faith they profess.

In short, what Green Bean said: “Learn more about Judaism.”

The above description of a Hebrew was taken from Webster’s fercryinoutloud.

13

thea: I am sorry, you are incorrect. If one is of any race or background, and fully converts to Judaism, he is “Jewish”. On the other hand, if you profess another religion entirely, you are not truly “Jewish”. But a NON-practicing “jew”, whose mother is Jewish, is a Jew, despite the fact he does not practice or believe.

The “Jewish race” is a misnomer. A better term would be “of Jewish ethnicity” (or Heritage)to indicate one who is of Jewish heritage or “race”, whether or not Judaism is practiced.

However, if CMkeller, SDim, Izzy, or Zev wants to contradict
this (or more likely explain better), I would like that.

And, someone who is a Southern Baptist IS a Christian, even if perhaps not a good one.

14

i understand that jews are more than just people belonging to a certain religion, that yes it is a complete culture.

but how does this make it a race?

how do they differ racially from their arab neighbours?

does this mean that people who have descended from a long line of frenchmen are a different race from people who have descended from a long line of englishmen? no. nationality has nothing to do with race.

i don’t see how being a jew does either, and i am also curious. i don’t think it has been explained well enough in this thread, perhaps due to the forum it is in.

15

tbea, I have never heard of any different between Jews and Hebrews. And I am a Jew.

NiceGuyJack, there is racism in Israel, but it doesn’t have so much to do with what a person looks like as what their cultural background is. There are two major groups in Israel, the Ashkenazim (Eastern Europeans - from Russia, Poland, lots from the US and Canada, etc.) and Mizrachim (Middle Easteners - from Iran, Iraq, Yemen, Morocco, etc.). There is a deep rift between these two groups, mostly due to politics. The State of Israel was founded by well-educated Ashkenazim who were escaping anti-Semitism in Europe. After the founding of the State, in 1948, there was a sudden and huge inundation of Mizrachim, largely because their countries were now at war with Israel and they wanted nothing to do with any Jews. Anyway, these white European Jews (who were often atheists) with university degrees knew nothing of these darker-skinned Arabic-speaking people who practiced a different version of their religion. And basically, they treated them like shit. I won’t go into the crap they did, but it wasn’t good. Fast forward to today - there are now more Mizrachim in Israel than Ashkenazim, but there has never been a Mizrachi Prime Minister, and they are generally poorer and less-educated. It’s not really a good situation.

Additionally, since the fall of the Iron Curtain, thousands of Russians - most with only a vague knowledge of Judaism - have come to Israel, which was quite a shock to the country’s economy. Currently, one-sixth of the Israeli population is Soviet-born. Russian is now an important language to know, and lots of old-timers are having a hard time dealing with these changes. So the Russians have gotten a lot of crap in recent years.

The other group that has been give the short end of the stick is the Ethiopians. There are not very many of them, really, but they stand out. They were airlifted from Ethiopia in the late '80’s and early '90’s, and had the most difficulty of all in getting used to their new country. Their practice of Judaism is so different from “mainstream” that rabbis won’t even marry them without requiring them to convert first! (Except in the city of Netanya, for some reason. Lots of weddings in Netanya.) Several years ago, it was revealed that the Magen David Adom (it’s like the Red Cross) was regularly throwing away any blood donated by Ethiopians. This discovery led to riots, and many Ethiopians feel really marginalized.

These are just a few of the myriad and complicated reasons why Israel is not a homogenous society, and why it is a mistake to think that all Jews are alike in history and religious beliefs.

16

Oh oh oh. However, I should note that Eastern European Jewry, at least, does constitute an “ethnic group.” Ashkenazim are more likely than any other group to carry the Tay-Sachs gene, which indicates that this is not simply a religion. After all, whoever heard of a specific gene that only Catholics or Methodists have? And sure, it’s a stereotype, but Jews DO tend to have dark hair and eyes. Don’t start in on the blond Jews you know, please. Believe me, I know - you can check my pic at the SDPP - but there is a reason for that stereotype.

BTW, Jews tend to refer to themselves not as a religion, but as a nation, Am Yisrael, the People of Israel, or B’nei Yisrael, the Children of Israel. I guess that doesn’t translate really well, but the word “am” is often used to indicate the nation.

17

Agree with Kyla. I was mainly referring to American Jews. It’s true, most Jews I meet, including Russian Jews of which there are also a lot in the US, are indistinguishable from the European/American population, and the two Jewish guys that I know well are blond and blue eyed! In fact I had to profess surprise when I met a Russian Jew who was dark. I had to ask her about it, but she told me that her family was one that married very close to it’s roots, meaning Jews only I suppose.

I also read in the news that in Israel the big fight is between orthodox types (kind of like the Afghanistan Taliban) and the non-religious types.

And Jews may be related even if they are of different races. Some one posted a link a few months ago about a lost tribe of Jews in Africa. Even though these Jews were black, the rabbis(?) had this gene in it that proved they were of Jewish ancestry.

18

MEBuckner explained it pretty well. I’m an atheist as well, but I’m also a Jew.

19

Thank you Kyla for the very informative post. If anything it convinces me more that it is not a race but a religion. Regarding your reference to the Tay-Sachs gene being common amongst East European Jews, any genetic disorder common among a group of people indicate that the people rarely bread outside the group. As a matter of fact, genetic disorders become more common within groups that isolate their gene pool. In this case I would say that the Tay-Sachs gene would indicate that they are East European Jews, nothing more. This leads to another interesting point. The persecution of Jews in Europe is undoubtedly the reason why groups such as the East European Jews married within the group rather than mix with the native population.
Now let’s look at another example. The Jews who ended up in Denmark were not persecuted as they were in other European nations. Or should I say they were no longer persecuted after the Catholic Church was thrown out of the country. Over the years the Danish Jews almost completely assimilated to Danish society and intermarried freely with the native Danes to such a point that it is near impossible to tell if a person is Jewish by looks alone. When the Germans came, there was a great underground movement to save the “Jews” from the Germans and the majority of Danish Jews were rescued through smuggling to neutral Sweden.
For sure when the war ended a few of these Danish Jews left Europe for good, but a majority returned to Denmark because they considered themselves Danes first. The non-Jewish Danes certainly considered them fellow Danes. In Denmark, there are no “Jews” in the ethnic sense. They act, talk, eat, drink, and look like Danes. They are Danes. The only difference is that they practice a different religion.

20

Excellent post, NiceGuyJack. You could replace “Denmark” with “The Netherlands” and pretty much get the same results. Although a lot more Dutch Jews died during WWII, unfortunately. In hindsight, the Danes had the best strategy to deal with the Nazis…

I usually can’t tell if a Dutchman is Jewish or not. Well, in the part of Amsterdam where I live there’s a substantial Orthodox community, so they are pretty easy to spot. But other than that, Dutch Jews are Dutch by nationality, and Jewish by religion, mostly.