Why the hell are people of Jewish faith called a "Race"

The BBQ Pit
21

Currently, there are very few pressures placed on the Jews. Most state-sponsored and church-sponsored persecution has ended.

So now what we’re seeing is an assimilation because we no longer need to assert ourselves as Jews. We don’t have to live in “Stetls”(projects for Jews), we’re no relegated to certain cities, there are no more pogroms today. So we’ve spread out. A majority of our formerly community acquired Jewishness and closely held laws and such have boiled down because of this.

There are several groups of Jews, however who have held fast to the word of God. In America, it’s the Hasidims and the Orthodoxy. Hasidims can be very separated from society sometimes, and can live in communes or other smaller societies. Orthodox are still rather, well, Orthodox, and follow many, if not most Jewish law including Kosher dietary laws and not driving on Sabbath or using electonics, Etc.

These two groups have mostly respect for each other, but the Hasidims are typically still a bit wary of anyone less Jewish than them.

Then there’s the Reformed/Assimilated/California Jew(Like me :)). A lot(but not all, or most), are typically like me. I unfortunately have no religion now. I will probably marry a “shiksa”. If I find religion, I will tend to go back to my roots, and I will try to raise my child in a family that will teach them both sides of their parents religions’(If I do marry a Christian, or other gentile religioned woman).

We’re not fully accepted by the conservative/Orthodoxy, and not at all by the Hasidics.

Even though I’m Reformed, I’m an Ashkanazi/Eastern Euro. Jew. I wouldn’t say I was “Jewish-looking”, but I have very olive skin, and dark hair(with lots of Russian red), even though my family, up to my mom’s generation was totally Jewish. My friend, who is an emigrated Georgian Jew, OTOH, looks VERY Jewish.

So, we’re a very dynamic culture as a people, with very homogeneous backgrounds. We’ve interbred for thousands of years, mostly for survival, and have now disbursed. We’re not exactly a race, but we’re certainly more than a religion.

-Sam

P.S.-- If I’m wrong about any of this, Kyla will let us know :slight_smile:

22

GaWd,
You make it sound as if the Jews’ assimilation to Danish (and Dutch?) societies took place within the last 50 years. Try 500-600 years ago. Most of the Jews in Scandinavia (Coldfire would have to confirm if the same applies to the Netherlands) arrived fleeing the Spanish inquisition and other such Catholic atrocities in various countries.
As a point of interest, I have noticed that almost every American Jew originate from countries where they were persecuted. You pointed out that you originate from Eastern Europe. Assuming it was (for example) Russia. It is well known that the Russian Jews were persecuted and were never quite considered “Russians”. In such a society, the Jews remain Jewish and when they arrived in America, they never considered themselves as Russians and so the idea of the Jews as an ethnic group is alive and kicking in the US.
Regarding the ultra orthodox Jews. Extreme religious belief is not unique to the Jews.

23

Niceguy, Good point about emigration dates of Jews to Denmark and other countries, although I’m not so sure I said anything at all about timelines for your countries, just that this is what occuring today in America.

As far as ethnicity alive and rampant in the US, in my part of the country, it is not(hence the “California Jew” label). Quite a few Reform Jews are about as ethnic as Denmark’s Jewish population-that was my point, and I’m sorry if it wasn’t made clear in my post.

-Sam

24

Why are Jews a race and not a religion? Why am I a Jew even though I’m not Jewish anymore?

Because there are still people out there who would like to throw me in a gas chamber.

Under Hitler’s regime, it really didn’t matter whether you were fully assimilated into German culture. It didn’t matter whether you were a professed atheist. It didn’t matter if you were married to a gentile and had raised your kids Christian. If you had Jewish ancestry you were a Jew, and the Nazis tried to get rid of you. (yeah, there were exceptions…I know)

The Neo-Nazis are out there. Are they really powerful at this point? Who knows? But they are out there and they are struggling to gain more power. And if that knock ever comes on my door…well, you get the picture.

25

Whether you like it or not, that is how their religion is.

Since it is their religion and not yours, your opinion doesn’t count for much.

I imagine that Jews are quite happy to not decide how you should view yourself, your heritage, your people and your faith - How about giving them the same courtesy, eh?

Yer pal,
Satan

[sub]I HAVE BEEN SMOKE-FREE FOR:
Four months, five days, 13 hours, 35 minutes and 19 seconds.
5102 cigarettes not smoked, saving $637.83.
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26

**Re: Y’all are being far too nice to this dork **
Put differently and less kindly than Satan: This was posted in the Pit - what’s your guess as to why?

picmr

27

And just because it cannot be said enough, **Klaatu[/]b, fuck off and educate yourself.

Schmuck.

28

The technical answer regarding the OP is that during the nineteenth century when ethnologists were running around dividing people into “races” (so that they could identify the “higher” ones from the “lower” ones) they tended to identify Jews as belonging to a “race.” This language made it into legal and paralegal documents (the deed restrictions on the original platting for my folks’ subdivision included language to limit buyers to the “white Gentile race” and another clause prohibited purchase by members of the “Hebrew race”) and was adopted into the mindsets of a great many people who did not (or did not want to) know better.

While “race” is totally incorrect, there is a factual basis for identifying many Jews along the lines of an identifiable ethnic group. Dex recently pointed to a study that showed a very strong mitochondrial DNA connection among several diverse groups of modern Jews. There is a group in Central Africa (not the more famous Ethiopians) whose legends relate that they were a Jewish community on the Arabian peninsula who migrated to Africa–they have several similar DNA markers (although that evidence is far less conclusive).

Since the Jewish religion has had fairly strict prohibitions against intermarriage since around 600 B.C.E., it is not hard to believe that they have been able to maintain a cohesive group. There has been intermarriage, but it generally involved persons converting to Judaism and so widening the gene pool rather than a wholesale mixing of groups as has occurred throughout the U.S. in the last 100 years.

29

Well Klaatu you stupid little shit. I started that thread. did I call the Jews a seperatate race? No you stupid fuck. I used the term race-baiting. Why? Because ethnicity-baiting sounds stupid and doesn’t convey the message. Maybe in your little hick town you don’ have any atheist jews. Maybe you think everyone in Israel is religous. Maybe you thought the Nazi’s only killed practicing Jews. Maybe you’re just a dumbass.

30

Tom, thank you for a well-reasoned and insightful (as always) post.

I would like to retract my previous comment, regretful in its tone as well as its vBB error.

31

If not, or only rarely, intermarrying for several hundred years does not create a “race,” what does?

Here’s a personal anecdote:
I considered myself of German/Swedish ancestry and was raised attending a Luthern church. My boyfriend went to Hebrew school and temple.

Nowadays, my only connection to Christianity is celebrating Christmas (Christmas dinner, really) as opposed to Hannukah, as he does. Neither of us attends temple/church of any kind except as a curtesy to parents, yet he still considers himself Jewish despite not practicing any of the tenets of his religion and so forth. I do not consider myself “Christian” any more since I don’t “do” the Christian things, but he still considers himself Jewish. Either the requirements are less strict for “being” Jewish - to the point where simply having been born that way carries you through life - or it seems to me that race/ethnicity/whatever does apply?

Stealing from a scene in “Heartburn” - write seven words down on a piece of paper that best describe you. I think “Gay” would top my list and “Christian” wouldn’t make it at all - I done gave up that narcotic. BUT I’m certain “Jewish” would show up on his, and probably be among the first two, and that’s for a non-kosher, non-practicing, doesn’t-what’s-in-his-mezuzah gay man. So there’s clearly an identity there that goes beyond simply the practice of a certain religion, if you ask me.

He, I should point out, thinks that being Jewish is a faith and not an ethnicity but didn’t really back it up so I can’t give you his arguement. Also because I’m right, and my gay atheist Jewish best friend agrees with me.

32

The Jews are a people. They share common genetic characteristics that identify them as a separate group from non-Jews (which is why it is still occasionally possible to identify someone as “looking Jewish”). Obviously, over time intermarriage has decreased the uniqueness of Jewish DNA, but there are still genetic markers that can identify Jews (and, as mentioned above, genetic diseases common to Jewish populations).

The NOVA piece on the possible discovery of the “Lost Tribes of Israel” contained a very thorough discussion of how scientists are exploring the genetic links among Jews. The text of the piece and various other information can be found at the PBS site at:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/israel/

If you come from a maternal line of Jews, you are a Jew, whether or not you have ever practiced the religion (there has been some debate among Jews as to whether the paternal line should be included as well, but I believe all major Jewish groups agree that being Jewish through the maternal line makes you Jewish, period). Even if you convert to or practice another faith, such as Christianity, you are still Jewish.

I’m not sure to what extent the genetic component of Judaism makes Jews a race or an ethnic group. But the fact remains that being Jewish is not dependent on having particular religious beliefs (although it is possible to become Jewish by conversion).

And of course I would be remiss not to point out that this question was addressed in a Mailbag answer:

http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mjewish.html

33

Notice, however, that there our esteemed CKdext dances around the question of whether or not you are Jewish if you convert to another religion (as opposed to simply not practicing). If you covert to another religion, you are no longer Jewish. Proof of this can be found about what happens if a woman converts out of the faith- children born afterward are NOT considered Jewish. Since “any child born to a Jewish Mother is Jewish”, and post conversion children are NOT, then the act of ACTIVE conversion renders one “non-Jewish”. Witness our Presiding Judge of the Superiour Court, Judge Jack Komar, who converted to Catholism, and thus states he is not Jewish. However, if you convert TO Judaism, you ARE a “Jew”, whatever your “blood”.

I cannot “convert” to being Black. One is simply unable to 'convert" in or out of a “race”, but you can do so of a religion. I do accept those who were born of Jewish parents, but are no longer, as- of Jewish “heritage” or “ethnicity”.

34

Here’s a site some of you may find helpful: Judaism 101

Quoting from their “What Is a Jew?” section . . .

I hope this helps clear things up. Even though this is in the Pit, let’s be civil, okay?

your humble TubaDiva
Administrator
“It’s not just a religion, it’s a way of life.”

35

Note this from the dictionary you quoted:

Can you identify a “distinct human type”? The broad categories of race are still used within some aspects of anthropology to note migrations and dispersions and that sort of thing. However, the microbiologists and their associated disciplines have noted that we cannot define “race” according to DNA or any other objective criteria. The best we can do (anthropologically) is note that large groups of people who have been geographically isolated for a sufficient period of time do have a number of similar features (skin color, eye color, facial hair, some other attributes). However, a single interbreeding wipes out all the carefully constructed definitions.

When we collect all the attributes that make up one of the (old style) three races of mankind, we find that people who live in regions where those “races” overlap share traits from each of the “races”. (For studying human dispersion, I believe that anthropology actually got up to seven “racial groupings” but the same situation applies. On the borders of any “racial” territory, there are numbers of people who carry “racial” characteristics from both groups.)

So we’re back to a “distinct human type” and the biologists say there is none. As Kayla noted, there are populations that do have genetic predispositions: Tay-Sachs, Hansen’s Disease, Sickle-Cell Anemia, etc. all occur in recognizable populations. However, in those cases, a single trait has entered the population and is carried on through procreation, but there is nothing in those people that “owns” that genetic predisposition. There is nothing that prevents those diseases from being carried to a different population through cross-breeding. (The fact that they are generally recessive traits means that the statistical probability of such a transfer is extremely small, but there is nothing inherently “black” about Sickle-Cell Anemia and there is nothing particularly “Jewish” about Tay-Sachs (which is not even an issue for Sephardic Jews).)

36

Absolutely, but notice it mentions “non-religious or secular Jews” - there is no such thing as a “Catholic Jew”.

37

Ahemahemahem, Tom.

BTW, I recall reading in an Anthropology text that I no longer have (sorry! I’ll understand if you don’t take me seriously) that over a period of about a thousand years, Askenazim had an intermarriage rate of about 5%.

Not that this is important. Klaatu, you can think whatever you like. I don’t really care about changing your mind, I’m just explaining why we believe what we believe. You’ll just have to accept it.

38

Okay, I knew that the OP would create a firestorm,
and I do appologize for the profanity.

However, I will not appologize for the question.
I do not believe that adherence to a certain faith
(any faith) can somehow translate into a biological
difference in the person of such faith.

That would be a dangerous assumption, ie “in 30 years can we
“breed” people with a particular mindset?”

There is no such thing as a Jewish “gene” any more
than a Christian gene, etc. That is ludicrous.

Those of you who read my post closely enough to realize
I was not making an anti-Semitic remark, thank you.

Those of you that had an immediate “knee-jerk” reaction
are the PC type of people who stifle free thought and
discourage any engagement that offends your sensibilities.

(Or those of the PC media perceptions you seem to accept
as gosphel)

That is bullshit!

I simply asked why a particular religious group was defined as a race, where other religious groups are not.

Because it happened to be people who embrace Judaism, I am
immediately jumped on as an anti-Semite.

Given the many threads in this forum ragging on Christians, some of you sound like hypocrites from Hell.

Some of you very posters on my ass were the same people
on the LBMB months ago playing childish games, and talking major shit to the believers over there. I won’t take the time to provide quotes from some of you self-righteous
jerks, as you know who you are.

Because they are fundies, they are fair game? Or is fair
game what YOU deem it to be? You have the gall to call me
anti-Semitic for a simple question, when you electronically
terrorized those people for weeks.

Oh, I guess those fundie wackos don’t count.
Hypocritical assholes.

Look in the fucking mirror.

I didnt see Jewish, or Christian, or Moslem as an option on my Census form, re: “race”

I couldn’t care less what religion you are, but I respect
your right to believe, and practice your faith, just as I
would hope you would respect my right to be an athiest.

I will not back down from what I see as a simple, legitimate
question.

39

But, DNFTT!

We’ve supplied the answers, you’ve promptly skipped over them and started trolling for those knee-jerkers again.

See ya, atheist guy.

-Sam

40

All troll bullshit aside - for those who are genuinely interested in this question (and it comes up a lot, both from Jews and Non-Jews), here’s another point.

I don’t believe in giving Hitler the ultimate right to determine whether I am one race or another. It’s true that he had his idea of what constituted the Jewish race, but the question of why lots of Jews answer ‘Jewish’ when asked a question like ‘what’s your background’, regardless of the level of their observance, is because they have no other answer they want to give.

If their ancestors came from Germany or Poland, they often don’t want to classify themselves as German or Polish, so it’s the identity that followed them from Poland to Russia to France to Australia (just to give my father’s travels as an example), with which they identify. Simply put, in multicultural countries like Australia and America, answering ‘Australian’ or ‘American’ to that question of what your heritage is, is not enough for the person asking when they notice you don’t fit the stereotypical WASPish look. Those with Italian grandparents will identify as Italian, and the same applies to Greeks, Spaniards and numerous other nationalities.

For Jews, the country their grandparents lived is seen as a place they just happened to be, not the place that gave them their race, possibly because they were never considered part of the larger culture at the time. If you don’t like this application of the word ‘race’, that’s fine, but these are just some of the reasons why it is used in that unusual (unique?) way.

HenrySpencer.