Pagans (or other Magick-practioners): How's it WORK?

Great Debates
1

Quite a few years ago, I had a whole bunch of Wiccan/pagan/neopagan friends, and I used to occasionally read a Paganism message board that many of them frequented. I was mostly a lurker just there to absorb a little of the culture, but occasionally a thread would break my silence.

One day, somebody posted a thread mentioning that they used a spell to make traveling easier, and now they “almost never” had to stop for red lights any more. Traffic lights always turned green when they approached.

Now, my immediate reaction was to suggest a combination of confirmation bias and the fact that modern traffic lights are DESIGNED with clever sensors and timing algorithms to restrict traffic as little as possible. This suggestion did not go over well, and numerous other posters chimed in saying they were also confident that their magick kept them from waiting at red lights as much as “normal” people. This actually seemed to be a surprisingly common practice/belief, at least within this community.

So, my response became: Wait, how would that WORK? Traffic lights are controlled by a handful of circuits and controls. How do you actually make 'em do something different? I could only think of three real answers:

  1. The magick actually overrides the electronics and makes the controller circuit change the light. This seems…complicated.

  2. The magick bypasses all that and actually just turns the red lights off and the green lights on. This strikes me as something that would be easily objectively verifiable.

  3. The magick creates some sort of time bubble where the traffic light “speeds up” until it’s green as the magick-user approaches, then “slows down” over time afterwards. This strikes me as a little too hardcore.

Nobody on said board gave me an honest response, and several got VERY huffy and said I was mocking them. I wasn’t (and am not)! I’m just curious how, if you believe this sort of practice WORKS, you BELIEVE it works.

So, my question goes out to anybody who either believes in this sort of magick or feels familiar enough with those who do to answer: HOW does magick affect complex systems like this?

(note: I realize many pagans will simply say, “It doesn’t. That’s not something you can do with magick.” Which is fine, and I think I probably agree with. But obviously some people believe is DOES work, so.)

2

You’re looking for an valid explanation where there is none. Carrying on this kind of conversation with people who believe in the efficacy of magic is just going to piss both you and them off. They’re not going to be able to tell you how it works only that it works.

Odesio

3

That’s like asking how Gandalf can make his staff glow. Magic is not supposed to be explainable, that’s why its called magic and not science.

4

“Why that’s easy, I magically change the electron states in my staff so it emits photons. Silly hobbit.” ~ Gandalf, while drunk.

Also, people who believe in magic aren’t what you’d call serious thinkers in general. They, I would suggest, in general don’t understand science or mechanics so assuming that magic spirits change traffic lights probably isn’t a stretch for them.

5

A friend of a friend claimed to be able to make traffic lights turn green in the same fashion, so this is something that I’ve been confronted with—and thought about—before. Given the chain of events involved t’s hard to make it work so that the magic-user actually changes the light, and besides, is that really a good idea for an-it-harm-none types? If you change your light green, the other light has to turn red.

The most sensible I could come up with is, somehow, the magic arranges reality so that you happen to leave at just the right time that traffic lights are most convenient. I suspect (know) that there is no really coherent answer.

6

Odesio and DigitalC are correct, of course, but I’ll play along.

Were I inclined to believe in stuff like this, I would probably be inclined to think that the spell affected not the traffic lights, but just me and my car. My progress would be subtly altered so that I would flow from light to light while they were green anyway, and thus wouldn’t have to stop as much.

In other words, if there were magic spells, I would think putting a spell on my car would be a simpler matter than putting one on every stoplight I encounter. Exactly how it would work, of course, I have no idea. Because it wouldn’t.

7

Odesio, DigitalC, and Lobohon, thanks for your input, but I’m really not interested in blithe dismissals. I already don’t believe in magick, I don’t need your help.

Contrary to assertions, not all pagans are unthinking fools, and some people who believe in magick DO consider the how. I’ve just rarely seen such considerations turned to “complex” systems like this.

It’s dismissive and completely unnecessary to assert that magick-believers are unable to provide an explanation. If they ARE unable, said inability will speak far more eloquently than derisive comments.

8

Real answer: IT DOESN’T WORK. It’s confirmation bias combined with (in some cases) traffic engineering.

Explanation I’d offer to magick-believers (as a neoPagan myself this does come up): The spells you work are subtly altering your actions so as to maximize the number of your encounters with green lights. This may be done via a momentary delay that leads you to arrive after the change from red to green, a twitch of your foot that results in a slight acceleration sufficient to have you arrive prior to a red light, or simply by divine fiat, as the Gods choose.

9

At which point, the people who just a second ago had a green light come screeching to a stop, causing a massive pile-up.

Which is why this:

makes the most “sense”, if you believed these things.

10

Ex-pagan here (I’m now agnostic, if that makes any difference), fairly familiar with the different justifications of magic. This is the sort of thing that would make my eyes roll into the back of my head, honestly. I mean, to me, it seemed worse than football players praying for a touchdown; no, Diety/God/Goddess/your uncle Bob has fuck-all to do with this, and is probably going to laugh his/her/its/their ass(es) off.

That being said, the sort of justification I would’ve used would have been as follows:

Magic is, in general, not going to change anything external to the user. It can, however, provide the focus to either consciously or subconsciously change the actions, thoughts and behaviors of the practicioner. So, in this situation, it could be that the driving habits of the pagan have changed such that they are less likely to encounter red lights (for instance, they may no longer speed and therefore fuck up the timing of the various lights). Or, alternately, that focus could change the person’s outlook such that they don’t notice or care about the majority of red lights they encounter; in that case, confirmation bias is essentially working as the mechanism of the magic. But, hey, if it makes the person feel better, who the hell really cares?

In that sort of justification, magic works much like meditation.

Another justification draws from chaos theory; it works because of tiny changes made by the diety of your choice, all of which add up to the desired effect. For instance (and it’s been forever since AP Physics, so forgive me if I screw this up), a dog crossing the street two blocks down causes the driver of a large pickup truck to swerve. As he swerves, he realizes that he forgot to pick up a flea collar at the store for his dog. So, he decides to turn at the next light, but, still shaken by the dog, he’s a little off-center on his lane. This makes him get a little too close to the solenoid, and he triggers it about ten seconds before the pagan in question approaches in her Honda Civic Hybrid.

In that justification, magic works much like prayer. It works because you’ve petitioned the god(s). There’s no one mechanism. Note, however, that there are subsets of pagans that believe that the God or Goddess (or a wayward spirit, if you believe in that kind of thing) just went on and changed things directly. These pagans, however, don’t tend to be of a scientific bent. It works because the deity-or-deities entered in a cheat code.

Finally, you have the pagans who believe that said power comes from within, and that the manipulation of elements/energy directly affects reality. In those cases, the pagan would likely believe that, yes, what he/she did directly affected reality, or made the right ripples, or something like that. Essentially, the pagan believes that he/she has hacked the universe. Typically, though, as the results are not up to scientific rigor, there’s a healthy dose of fatalism or divine will or whatever.

I’m sure there are other explanations used, but those are the ones that I see most commonly cited. And, honestly, as the first one is the one I subscribed to, I might not be doing the others justice.

11

So you couldn’t get the answer you wanted on a pagan message board, and you thought you’d come here instead----to a board ostensibly charged with fighting ignorance, comprising a large number of skeptics—whom you expect to sit silently while we wait on this mythical high-functioning pagan to come along and provide a plausible reason for believing obvious nonsense?

What exactly is the debate?

12

I didn’t give you a blithe dismissal I gave you some advice based on my own experience asking those with magical beliefs to explain to me how they work. At some point you’re just going to be banging your head against a wall in search of some satisfactory answer you’ll never get.

I agree. Furthermore, I would include most other religious people as being more than “unthinking fools.”

You state that you didn’t get any “honest” answers from those believers you asked. Well, what the heck would you consider to be an honest answer?

Odesio

13

Something that satisfies the question. Heck, I provided three of them in my post, even though I openly state I think there’s flaws to each. I’m not looking for the “right” answer here, I’m asking a question about beliefs.

I apologize if I sounded a bit too dismissive of your dismissal ( :wink: ). I appreciate that you’re trying to be helpful, but I feel that such posts will discourage “believers” who might otherwise be willing to contribute.

14

How is the OP’s question different than someone who asks a question about Christianity (or Islam or other religion)?

If someone starts an OP asking something like, “Christians, how did Jesus do <such and such>?”, and people who are not Christians come in and start “responding” to the OP by saying that Christianity is bullshit and none of it is true, etc, wouldn’t that be jerkish behavior?

15

Said pagan message board was mostly full of bitter teenage gripers, not people who are versed in this sort of discussion. I asked here because I would assume that Pagan (or Pagan-acquainted) Dopers will be more versed in rigorous argument.

I’m a very, very skeptical person myself. That doesn’t mean I can’t be curious about differing beliefs, nor does it mean I have to pipe up whenever I think I’m smarter than somebody else. Your mileage may vary.

16

IF it could ever work, what happens when two people approach the same light from different streets using the same spell? Everything goes green!?!

17

And, to folks saying an answer is impossible, I would like to direct your eyes to Angel of the Lord’s well-written, informative, and belief-neutral post.

His post actually fought some ignorance, instead of promoting selective ignorance as a virtue.

18

Yep.

Right before it all goes black.

19

My take on the OP’s post is that he just wants to know what the thought process is in the minds of people who believe this.

I’m curious too.

20

I see you’ve already mentioned the likely scientific explanation - the lights don’t change behaviour at all - the pagans just think they do.

As for how it ‘works’, I can add:

  • the magic hypnotises all the nearby drivers into believing the lights have changed in favour of the magician

  • the magic temporarily changes the colour green into red and vice versa

  • the traffic lights are alive and happily co-operate