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  #1  
Old 10-19-2009, 11:06 AM
astro astro is online now
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Victims claims of being "drugged" with roofies vs simply drinking to excess

I was reading about roofies after reading this article and came across the quote below. How common in real life is the deliberate use of roofies and similar drugs to molest women vs simply taking advantage of women who are drunk to near insensibility? This survey of victims seems to suggest that most "I was drugged" claims predicate to being raped or molested are almost always a case of severe intoxication due to simply drinking too much.

How common is being "drugged" via roofies etc vs simply being drugged with alcohol?

Quote:
It must be noted that an inability to remember events, including sexual encounters, is not conclusive evidence of having consumed a drugged drink: Drunkenness itself causes blackouts, sleepiness, and a reduction in inhibitions. Only a timely screening for flunitrazepam can demonstrate its use. It has been shown that alcohol alone is the substance used in the vast majority of cases of date-rape. A recent study conducted by doctors in the U.K. found that none of the subjects reporting spiked drinks had any traces of flunitrazepam or other medications popularly believed to be associated with drug assisted rape such as GHB. However, flunitrazepam is not prescribed in the UK and the study size was only based on 75 people which may in part account for the findings. The study results however, do suggest that binge drinking is much more commonly to blame for drug assisted rapes than pharmaceutical drugs.[36]
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  #2  
Old 10-19-2009, 11:08 AM
Zsofia Zsofia is offline
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I don't have any data for you, but wanted to add scenario 3, which is spiking drinks with alcohol, or more alcohol than expected. My dad says they put grain alcohol in the punch when he was at Georgia Tech in the 50's, even.
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  #3  
Old 10-19-2009, 01:18 PM
Bad Astronaut Bad Astronaut is offline
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If the victim reports the incident the next morning a simple blood test should be able to answer this question, should it not?
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  #4  
Old 10-19-2009, 01:29 PM
KneadToKnow KneadToKnow is offline
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A friend of mine was telling me after I'd mentioned never having been drunk that she hasn't either, but not from a lack of trying. She credited her Irish heritage. She did say, though, that she went out with a guy once and got completely loopy after one drink, and has thus come to the very heartfelt conclusion that this guy drugged it or spiked it in some significant way.

She's a nurse working on her R.N., so wrongly or rightly, I trust her to know the difference between unexpectedly drunk and drugged.
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  #5  
Old 10-19-2009, 02:19 PM
astro astro is online now
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In medical terms the roofie wiki says this

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Flunitrazepam's effects are approximately 7 to 10 times more potent than diazepam on a dose basis. The effects of flunitrazepam appear approximately 15 to 20 minutes after oral administration, and last for approximately four to six hours. Some residual effects can persist up to 12 hours or more after administration.
In real world terms doesn't this mean that a roofie poisoner has only about 15-20 minutes from intake to assume physical control the victim? If this is so I can understand being roofie poisoned in an apartment or private setting over drinks where a sexual predator figures he has control of the victim, but slipping someone a roofie in a bar seems kind of pointless if they are going to effectively crash in 15-20 minutes in a public setting with no guarantee that they are going home with you. In fact in most scenarios I've seen where women start acting erratic in bars (due to lots of alcohol) there usually at least one or more people women (even strangers) who assumes a protective role for the incapacitated person.

Given the speed of the drug it doesn't seem to make a lot of practical sense for a sexual predator to use a roofie in a public setting as it appears all you're going to have is an unresponsive woman in a public setting which generally invites attention from patrons, then management, and finally law enforcement.
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  #6  
Old 10-19-2009, 02:37 PM
Boyo Jim Boyo Jim is offline
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In Wisconsin they circumvented the alcohol versus roofies issues by adding alcohol to the list of date rape drugs. I'm not sure what this means in practice -- perhaps there is an enhanced penalty of it's found that a man knowingly rapes a drunk woman.

Though honestly, if I was going to be raped, I'd rather be drunk than sober during the experience.
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  #7  
Old 10-19-2009, 03:05 PM
Irishman Irishman is offline
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Boyo Jim said:
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In Wisconsin they circumvented the alcohol versus roofies issues by adding alcohol to the list of date rape drugs. I'm not sure what this means in practice -- perhaps there is an enhanced penalty of it's found that a man knowingly rapes a drunk woman.
My understanding of Oklahoma law is that any impairment can be grounds for charges of rape. They don't have to establish intent to incapacitate, merely that the victim was incapacitated, so could not exercise consent. According to the cop who told me this, this applies to alcohol.
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  #8  
Old 10-19-2009, 03:12 PM
Bad Astronaut Bad Astronaut is offline
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I have heard that in California intercourse with an intoxicated women is technically considered rape under the law. Meaning that for most single people, pretty much all of their sexual experiences are rapes.

Adam Carolla used to joke about that on Loveline.
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  #9  
Old 10-19-2009, 03:27 PM
Trom Trom is offline
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Originally Posted by Irishman View Post
Boyo Jim said:


My understanding of Oklahoma law is that any impairment can be grounds for charges of rape. They don't have to establish intent to incapacitate, merely that the victim was incapacitated, so could not exercise consent. According to the cop who told me this, this applies to alcohol.
I don't get this.

If people are not able to give consent while impaired on alcohol, on what grounds can drunk drivers be held responsible?

Drunk is drunk. Either people are responsible for their choices or they aren't.
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  #10  
Old 10-19-2009, 03:40 PM
The Piranha Brothers The Piranha Brothers is offline
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I've been told that there has never, ever been any proof of people secretly getting drugged at parties. This, apparently, is an urban legend. It can even be traced back to a silent movie where this thing happens. Ever since, the story has been known to surface once in a while.

I can't cite this, because it is absence of proof.
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  #11  
Old 10-19-2009, 04:02 PM
griffin1977 griffin1977 is offline
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Originally Posted by The Piranha Brothers View Post
I've been told that there has never, ever been any proof of people secretly getting drugged at parties. This, apparently, is an urban legend. It can even be traced back to a silent movie where this thing happens. Ever since, the story has been known to surface once in a while.

I can't cite this, because it is absence of proof.
This definitely not the case. It may be rarer than is commonly thought but it is not unknown (this study found it 2 cases out of 1000 where the victim tested positive for GHB, and as the article pointed out the real figure is probably higher as after 12 hours it is not possible to detect).

Last edited by griffin1977; 10-19-2009 at 04:02 PM..
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  #12  
Old 10-19-2009, 04:12 PM
The Piranha Brothers The Piranha Brothers is offline
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Originally Posted by griffin1977 View Post
This definitely not the case. It may be rarer than is commonly thought but it is not unknown (this study found it 2 cases out of 1000 where the victim tested positive for GHB, and as the article pointed out the real figure is probably higher as after 12 hours it is not possible to detect).
True, I now remember that a very low percentage tested positive. But that still doesn't mean they didn't take those drugs themselves!
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Old 10-19-2009, 04:13 PM
astro astro is online now
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Originally Posted by griffin1977 View Post
This definitely not the case. It may be rarer than is commonly thought but it is not unknown (this study found it 2 cases out of 1000 where the victim tested positive for GHB, and as the article pointed out the real figure is probably higher as after 12 hours it is not possible to detect).
I don't doubt at all that roofie poisoning occurs in certain circumstances, but considering practical aspects of how the drug works it would seem that using it at a public bar would be either useless, or actually counter-productive for sexual predators.

If this is true and the spectre of getting "slipped something" at a bar or restaurant is largely an urban legend, how then do we explain the claims of women who say they are not normally unusually susceptible to alcohol, but got blotto after one or two drinks, and either suspect or are certain they were drugged.

Can this be explained by varying reactions to alcohol? Can the effect of drinking really vary that much from one time out drinking to the next? What would change this for a woman. Empty stomach, time of month?

Last edited by astro; 10-19-2009 at 04:16 PM..
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  #14  
Old 10-19-2009, 04:34 PM
Chronos Chronos is offline
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It could also be that they were drinking something much stronger than their usual that particular night, or that they lost count of how many drinks they had for some reason, or they did something stupid for the simple reason that people sometimes do stupid things, and wanted something to blame it on.
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  #15  
Old 10-19-2009, 04:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Chronos View Post
It could also be that they were drinking something much stronger than their usual that particular night, or that they lost count of how many drinks they had for some reason, or they did something stupid for the simple reason that people sometimes do stupid things, and wanted something to blame it on.
If a sloppy bartender inadvertently makes a woman's drink triple strength are there some drinks so sweet this cannot be detected?
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  #16  
Old 10-19-2009, 05:04 PM
Qadgop the Mercotan Qadgop the Mercotan is offline
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Originally Posted by KneadToKnow View Post
She's a nurse working on her R.N., so wrongly or rightly, I trust her to know the difference between unexpectedly drunk and drugged.
I'd say this is an unrealistic expectation, to be able to differentiate thus just due to profession, or even individual use. Benzodiazepines act on similar receptors and in similar ways to alcohol. "Booze in pill form" is a good descriptor for the benzos.

And objective education in medicine and pharmacology does not confer subjective expertise in personal altered states. Believe me, I've studied this from a number of perspectives, including the perspective of study with the physician who won the Lasker award (America's version of the Nobel for Medicine) for discovering the opiate receptor, and the perspective of being face down on the floor.

I too believe that drinks do get adulterated, all too often.

But many people also blame their behavior on drugs that aren't there, rather than the one that is there: Alcohol. Alcohol can and does cause atypical behavior, loss of consciousness, retrograde amnesia, and blackouts. A few cases have been worked up where the person insists they must have been drugged, because they only had "one or two" drinks. Reconstruction of the evening (by eyewitnesses, blood alcohol content, drug screens, etc) demonstrates that "one or two" was 8 or 9, and no drugs besides alcohol were detected.

Last edited by Qadgop the Mercotan; 10-19-2009 at 05:08 PM..
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  #17  
Old 10-19-2009, 05:28 PM
KneadToKnow KneadToKnow is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Qadgop the Mercotan View Post
I'd say this is an unrealistic expectation, to be able to differentiate thus just due to profession, or even individual use. Benzodiazepines act on similar receptors and in similar ways to alcohol. "Booze in pill form" is a good descriptor for the benzos.
That's good info to have, Q. Thanks for setting me straight.
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  #18  
Old 10-19-2009, 11:18 PM
AboutAsWeirdAsYouCanGet AboutAsWeirdAsYouCanGet is offline
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this study found it 2 cases out of 1000 where the victim tested positive for GHB,
Yes......it's rare, but not unknown. It prolly happens when a douchbag (who is very stereotypically douchebagish and treats women exclusively as sex objects) does it.
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  #19  
Old 10-20-2009, 12:54 AM
bengangmo bengangmo is offline
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Does the spiking of drinks happen? I have no doubt about it. Many many times I have seen seemingly* drunk ladies being helped out of bars by men. So I wouldn't assume "being in a public place" would be too much of a barrier. Hell, I carried my wife out of a bar, up a flight of stairs and into a car with nary a comment from anyone.

Does it happen as regularly as "the media" would have us believe? I don't think so. Also, by self reporting the number is naturally going to be higher than the "real" number. To tell family "I went home with him because he drugged me" is waaaay more palatable than "I got stupid drunk and became a skank" - where's the mystery there?

From my own personal experience once you get to a certain level you tend to forget or not relalise just how much you are drinking....

* as in all the symptoms of drunkeness, but I didn't do a tox screen
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  #20  
Old 10-20-2009, 09:13 AM
Dr. Drake Dr. Drake is online now
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On the flip side, my cousin claimed to be a victim of the date-rape drug when all evidence (including past history, blood tests, behavior of the accused rapist, and witnesses) suggest alcoholic consent + subsequent blackout. She clung to the rape story, which evolved from fictional personal experience narrative into urban legend over the course of about a week--fascinating for me as a folklorist. I concluded that (1) the psychological "not my fault" benefits were strong, especially since she was cheating. A habitual liar and substance abuse perhaps has an easier time lying to herself. (2) It was a means of garnering sympathy from people whose sympathy was long ago exhausted.

It's also a case where it did more harm than good: it was obviously statutory rape even if she did consent (BAC .31), but her story was so implausible that she could never have gotten a conviction. The victim wanted to press charges, but after a few weeks it fizzled. I don't know why for certain, but I'm guessing inconsistent and implausible testimony on her part meant there was no point.

Happy ending: that was about two weeks before she (apparently) hit bottom. The last few months have seen a dramatic turnaround. We're cautiously optimistic.
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  #21  
Old 10-20-2009, 09:20 AM
Freudian Slit Freudian Slit is offline
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It's also a case where it did more harm than good: it was obviously statutory rape even if she did consent (BAC .31), but her story was so implausible that she could never have gotten a conviction.
What does her blood alcohol content have to do with whether it was statutory rape?
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  #22  
Old 10-20-2009, 09:30 AM
Really Not All That Bright Really Not All That Bright is offline
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I'm not linking, but there were three confirmed cases of date rape at a particular local fraternity house utilizing intoxicants: two involving GHB and one involving rohypnol, and resulted in the victim's death.
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  #23  
Old 10-20-2009, 09:33 AM
Dr. Drake Dr. Drake is online now
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Originally Posted by Freudian Slit View Post
What does her blood alcohol content have to do with whether it was statutory rape?
Her impairment due to alcohol means (in this state) that although she could (and probably did) give verbal consent, she could not legally give informed consent. In other words, she consented to an act that she would not have consented to sober. I am not a lawyer, and I may be wrong about the legal side of this.
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  #24  
Old 10-20-2009, 01:00 PM
Cat Fight Cat Fight is offline
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I know about a dozen close-ish friends who have had their drinks drugged. Three were bartenders who were working at the time (and now are pretty damned vigilant about making sure guys who buy drinks or shots for women do not touch them before the women, should they accept, drink them). About 1/3 went to the hospital. Only one was raped / had sex while she was blacked out, and she didn't report it (she wasn't 100% sure if the guy she went to her hotel with had been the one who drugged her, though it certainly looks that way). All have been drinking long enough to know how one or two alcoholic drinks affect them, which is why most were smart enough to know something was wrong before they blacked out or collapsed.

I also have a few friends (male and female) who have taken GHB willingly, as a party drug. All the women hated the experience, which lasted hours and mostly left them passed out. Fun!

ETA Didn't realize this was GQ when I responded– hope I didn't get too IMHO.

Last edited by Cat Fight; 10-20-2009 at 01:01 PM..
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  #25  
Old 10-20-2009, 01:49 PM
Freudian Slit Freudian Slit is offline
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Originally Posted by Dr. Drake View Post
Her impairment due to alcohol means (in this state) that although she could (and probably did) give verbal consent, she could not legally give informed consent. In other words, she consented to an act that she would not have consented to sober. I am not a lawyer, and I may be wrong about the legal side of this.
I thought statutory rape only applied to being underage, though.
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  #26  
Old 10-20-2009, 01:53 PM
Dr. Drake Dr. Drake is online now
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Originally Posted by Freudian Slit View Post
I thought statutory rape only applied to being underage, though.
I thought statutory rape was anything that was rape by statute, including any group who is unable to consent. I can't seem to find a clear definition; I may just be using the word incorrectly. She's certainly well over 18!
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  #27  
Old 10-20-2009, 02:07 PM
filling_pages filling_pages is offline
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Originally Posted by Cat Fight View Post
I know about a dozen close-ish friends who have had their drinks drugged. Three were bartenders who were working at the time (and now are pretty damned vigilant about making sure guys who buy drinks or shots for women do not touch them before the women, should they accept, drink them). About 1/3 went to the hospital. Only one was raped / had sex while she was blacked out, and she didn't report it (she wasn't 100% sure if the guy she went to her hotel with had been the one who drugged her, though it certainly looks that way). All have been drinking long enough to know how one or two alcoholic drinks affect them, which is why most were smart enough to know something was wrong before they blacked out or collapsed.
I have to suspect that someone is not being honest if a dozen of your close friends have been drugged this way. I'm a bar fly. I have spent much of my adult life in bars - gay bars, punk bars, dive bars, clubs, music venues, you name it. And, unless there is a serial drink drugger in your area, it just doesn't happen all that often. In fact, I have never actually seen or personally known anyone who this happened to.

I witnessed a woman telling her girlfriend that she was drugged at a punk show, and that is why she blacked out/puked on herself/had to be carried home by very annoyed acquaintances/left her car at the venue/lost the money in her wallet. She claimed to have only had two beers at the bar, one of which must have been drugged. Now, having been near her most of the night (mutual friends), I knew this was pure BS. She'd started with flask shots in the parking lot and worked her way down from there. All the money she "lost" went to pay for beers for herself and, in fact, several other women as she became more liquored up and flirty. I heard her repeat this story several times whenever the idea of drinks being drugged came up, as "It Happened To Me!"

Was she just flat out lying to cover her behavior? Did she actually believe her own story? No idea. Her girlfriend sure didn't, after a few of us mentioned that it was bull, but people she later told probably did. And then you have more and more people with examples about a friend of theirs that was drugged at the bar.
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  #28  
Old 10-20-2009, 02:11 PM
Boyo Jim Boyo Jim is offline
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Originally Posted by Dr. Drake View Post
I thought statutory rape was anything that was rape by statute, including any group who is unable to consent. I can't seem to find a clear definition; I may just be using the word incorrectly. She's certainly well over 18!
I doubt this -- if you knock an adult woman unconscious and then rape her, I can't imagine it's any other kind of rape than 'rape' rape.
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  #29  
Old 10-20-2009, 02:30 PM
Dr. Drake Dr. Drake is online now
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Originally Posted by Boyo Jim View Post
I doubt this -- if you knock an adult woman unconscious and then rape her, I can't imagine it's any other kind of rape than 'rape' rape.
In the case I'm talking about, the sequence of events seems to be:

(Her story, version #1)

I was in a bar one morning having breakfast with one tiny alcoholic drink.
A friend of a friend slipped me the date-rape drug there.
My friends saw him take me out of the bar, but next thing I remember,
I woke up in bed with him right there, both of us naked.

These factors make it implausible as a drugging: a known assailant who committed the assault in front of witnesses (including removing her from the bar to his home) and then stuck around afterwards in a vulnerable state.

(#2 My pieced-together version of what I think happened)

I was in a bar one morning, drinking heavily.
A guy I barely know looked appealing in my severely inebriated state.
I went home with him and we had sex. During or after, I blacked out.
I woke up without any memory of consenting to or having sex, and concluded that it must have been the date-rape drug.

I don't know what kind of rape that would be: it's certainly not violent sexual assault ("rape-rape"), and it's certainly not unimpaired consensual sex. I'm pretty sure it's rape by California law, and I'm pretty sure she reached for the drug explanation to avoid the implications of her decision-making process (getting drunk, that is).

ETA: Just to be clear, although I think she could have easily avoided the situation, I personally consider that the man took advantage of her and therefore I consider it rape. The whole point of the anecdote was to show how the date-rape drug was used as a fictional cover-story in a real-life situation.

Last edited by Dr. Drake; 10-20-2009 at 02:33 PM..
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  #30  
Old 10-20-2009, 03:47 PM
NoCoolUserName NoCoolUserName is offline
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Originally Posted by bengangmo View Post
...Hell, I carried my wife out of a bar, up a flight of stairs and into a car with nary a comment from anyone.
...
I was at a concert with VeryCoolSpouse who had a drink or 2, no more, and passed out from the crowd and heat. I carried her out. No one made any comment.

I was with friends, however, which might skew the sample.
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  #31  
Old 10-20-2009, 03:59 PM
Chronos Chronos is offline
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I didn't even realize it was possible to survive a BAC of .31 .
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  #32  
Old 10-20-2009, 04:03 PM
Really Not All That Bright Really Not All That Bright is offline
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I didn't even realize it was possible to survive a BAC of .31 .
And here I thought you were a college graduate.
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  #33  
Old 10-20-2009, 04:15 PM
msmith537 msmith537 is offline
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Originally Posted by KneadToKnow View Post
A friend of mine was telling me after I'd mentioned never having been drunk that she hasn't either, but not from a lack of trying. She credited her Irish heritage. She did say, though, that she went out with a guy once and got completely loopy after one drink, and has thus come to the very heartfelt conclusion that this guy drugged it or spiked it in some significant way.

She's a nurse working on her R.N., so wrongly or rightly, I trust her to know the difference between unexpectedly drunk and drugged.
Except she's also Irish so I trust her not to know the difference between drunk and sober. If she says she has never been drunk but not from lack of trying then she is lying. People (especially women who generally have less body mass) who "try" to get drunk, as in drinking many mixed drinks or doing many shots, tend to get drunk. They might not realized it, but they are drunk.

And it isn't uncommon to suddenly feel drunk after a few or even one mixed drink if you are tired, haven't eaten, or the drunk was mixed badly (or well, depending on your desire to get drunk).
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  #34  
Old 10-20-2009, 04:56 PM
DesertDog DesertDog is online now
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I didn't even realize it was possible to survive a BAC of .31 .
You can, and beyond, but you have to work up to it. My late wife was a med-tech and they are the ones the cops go to to draw blood and test the BAC. As a consequence, any time a bunch of them get together, they trade top BAC levels they have encountered. Hers was .67 One of her professors' record was .82 which is past the LD50 for most folks. The guy was walking around (albeit not in a straight line).
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  #35  
Old 10-20-2009, 05:02 PM
Dr. Drake Dr. Drake is online now
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As a side note, she may have been lying about the BAC as well. I don't know why she would, since it undermines her entire story, but it is possible she exaggerated it for some reason. On the other hand, she has (hopefully had, past tense!) the sort of history with alcohol where such a BAC is plausible.
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  #36  
Old 10-20-2009, 05:56 PM
Irishman Irishman is offline
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Trom said:
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I don't get this.

If people are not able to give consent while impaired on alcohol, on what grounds can drunk drivers be held responsible?

Drunk is drunk. Either people are responsible for their choices or they aren't.
Alcohol impairs judgment, as well as reflexes and vision. That is why it is illegal to be drunk and drive. You have a responsibility to limit your drinks or arrange that you won't drive after you get drunk and your judgment is impaired. That is why drunk drivers can be held responsible for the things they did while impaired. They allowed themselves to become inpaired and didn't control for foreseeable results.

Arguably, a woman who allowed herself to get drunk in public did not control for the foreseeable result that her judgment would become impaired and she might then choose to do something or with someone she wouldn't otherwise choose. The argument is that she plans to limit her drinks, but someone "helps" her by giving her stronger drinks or more drinks and encourages her "just one more", etc, until her judgment has been impaired and she cannot consent.

The difference is being in charge of your own body and what happens to it (consent), vs. being responsible to what you do to others. You have the responsibility to control what you do to others, but the right to safety and security of yourself. Thus the apparent double standard.

Whether you agree with that logic, that is what is enshrined in laws in several states.

astro said:
Quote:
I don't doubt at all that roofie poisoning occurs in certain circumstances, but considering practical aspects of how the drug works it would seem that using it at a public bar would be either useless, or actually counter-productive for sexual predators.
Consider this scenario: predator selects a woman who has had a few, but not wasted. He buys her a drink that he dopes, and has a conversation with her. Being in her proximity and interacting with her establishes the appearance of some familiarity. As she starts to get loopy, he then "assists" her out of the bar. Any bartender/bystanders ask, he says "my friend has had a couple too many, I'll just see her home". Do they have a reason to suspect he isn't her friend? Now if she has other friends around, they might notice and say/do something. But if she's by herself, or temporarily separated from her friends, it might be possible without being noticed.

Not saying it is a frequent occurrence, but plausible.

The Piranha Brothers said:
Quote:
True, I now remember that a very low percentage tested positive. But that still doesn't mean they didn't take those drugs themselves!
True, the test only indicates that the drugs were ingested, not how they came to be ingested. For that, you have to rely on the testimony of the person - which may or may not be reliable.
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  #37  
Old 10-20-2009, 07:51 PM
astro astro is online now
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Irishman

Consider this scenario: predator selects a woman who has had a few, but not wasted. He buys her a drink that he dopes, and has a conversation with her. Being in her proximity and interacting with her establishes the appearance of some familiarity. As she starts to get loopy, he then "assists" her out of the bar. Any bartender/bystanders ask, he says "my friend has had a couple too many, I'll just see her home". Do they have a reason to suspect he isn't her friend? Now if she has other friends around, they might notice and say/do something. But if she's by herself, or temporarily separated from her friends, it might be possible without being noticed.

Not saying it is a frequent occurrence, but plausible.
If the woman is pliable enough I suppose this is possible, but it also assumes the predator is working a very tight time window given the approx 15 - 20 minutes or so until the drug fully takes effect and the victim is reeling or unconscious, at which point he will soon have an unwieldy human sack of potatoes on his hands to hoist around. If the objective is to have sex it just seems like a massive hassle and fairly high level of risk on multiple levels vs paying for a few extra drinks.

In addition women claiming they were drugged are quite often with friends, which makes no sense whatsoever as a sexual predator will have no chance at all to abscond with an unsteady women who is being protected by her friends.

Last edited by astro; 10-20-2009 at 07:56 PM..
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  #38  
Old 10-20-2009, 08:21 PM
msmith537 msmith537 is offline
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Originally Posted by Irishman View Post
Alcohol impairs judgment, as well as reflexes and vision. That is why it is illegal to be drunk and drive. You have a responsibility to limit your drinks or arrange that you won't drive after you get drunk and your judgment is impaired. That is why drunk drivers can be held responsible for the things they did while impaired. They allowed themselves to become inpaired and didn't control for foreseeable results.

Arguably, a woman who allowed herself to get drunk in public did not control for the foreseeable result that her judgment would become impaired and she might then choose to do something or with someone she wouldn't otherwise choose. The argument is that she plans to limit her drinks, but someone "helps" her by giving her stronger drinks or more drinks and encourages her "just one more", etc, until her judgment has been impaired and she cannot consent.

The difference is being in charge of your own body and what happens to it (consent), vs. being responsible to what you do to others. You have the responsibility to control what you do to others, but the right to safety and security of yourself. Thus the apparent double standard.

Whether you agree with that logic, that is what is enshrined in laws in several states.
To expand on a few points, "consent" is not the same thing as "responsible". You are always responsible for your actions. But you are not always in a rational state of mind where you can make a decision requiring consent.

Also, "drunk" as it applies to rape does not mean that anytime you have sex with a woman who has had a few drinks it is rape. Drunk in this case generally means drunk to the point where the person is incoherent or falling down drunk.


I find it interesting that I haven't been able to Google any statistics on cases of date rape drugs being used. Lots of information about the drugs. Not so much on the stats. Maybe someone can post a link if their Google-foo is better than mine.
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Old 10-20-2009, 08:42 PM
astro astro is online now
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To expand on a few points, "consent" is not the same thing as "responsible". You are always responsible for your actions. But you are not always in a rational state of mind where you can make a decision requiring consent.

Also, "drunk" as it applies to rape does not mean that anytime you have sex with a woman who has had a few drinks it is rape. Drunk in this case generally means drunk to the point where the person is incoherent or falling down drunk.


I find it interesting that I haven't been able to Google any statistics on cases of date rape drugs being used. Lots of information about the drugs. Not so much on the stats. Maybe someone can post a link if their Google-foo is better than mine.
Your Google experience is the same as mine re lack of info, and is one of the reasons I asked the question re how real the threat is of being drugged by roofies in public venues. The only study (such as it is) seems to indicate that the overwhelming number of women who think (or claim that) they had been drugged, were in fact simply victims of their own binge drinking.

I have no doubt that roofies have been used in private settings to molest unconsious women, it's the claimed level of public venue drugging that seems a lot more implausible for reasons I've already stated upthread.

Last edited by astro; 10-20-2009 at 08:43 PM..
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Old 10-20-2009, 08:54 PM
kidchameleon kidchameleon is offline
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If the woman is pliable enough I suppose this is possible, but it also assumes the predator is working a very tight time window given the approx 15 - 20 minutes or so until the drug fully takes effect and the victim is reeling or unconscious, at which point he will soon have an unwieldy human sack of potatoes on his hands to hoist around. If the objective is to have sex it just seems like a massive hassle and fairly high level of risk on multiple levels vs paying for a few extra drinks.

In addition women claiming they were drugged are quite often with friends, which makes no sense whatsoever as a sexual predator will have no chance at all to abscond with an unsteady women who is being protected by her friends.
Well many a predator might not have done his homework and be familiar with the small time window they have.
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Old 10-20-2009, 09:51 PM
msmith537 msmith537 is offline
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I have no doubt that roofies have been used in private settings to molest unconsious women, it's the claimed level of public venue drugging that seems a lot more implausible for reasons I've already stated upthread.

From my own annecdotal college and 20-something experience, plenty of girls unintentionally drink themselves stupid with no additional help. Especially if they aren't big drinkers in the first place. There has been many a time I've been with a girl thinking I was going to get some only to have those 5 shots she did awhile ago suddenly kick in and end up having to take care of her or at least tuck her in and call it a night (since I'm not a complete scumbag). I'm a 195 lb man and I've occassionally had those nights of irrational exuberance so imagine how frequent it could happen to a 115 lb sorority girl.

Plus it's pretty freakin ballsy to roofie someone's drink in a crowded bar or party.
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Old 10-21-2009, 11:38 AM
Cat Fight Cat Fight is offline
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I have to suspect that someone is not being honest if a dozen of your close friends have been drugged this way.
It seems like a lot, but none of them have reason to lie as they didn't make fools of themselves or need some sort of cover story. As I mentioned, three were bartenders (two female, one male) who have worked at both bars and huge clubs in a college town. At least one has witnessed a guy drugging a drink that wasn't his (she had him kicked out, but his dozen or so buddies remained). The thing is, it belonged to a girl he hadn't even been talking to. Unless he was planning on chatting her up immediately after and convincing her to go to the bathroom or outside, he was basically wasting GHB, which makes me think he either had a bunch (though it doesn't take much) or it was some sort of game.
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Old 10-21-2009, 11:44 AM
bengangmo bengangmo is offline
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It seems like a lot, but none of them have reason to lie as they didn't make fools of themselves or need some sort of cover story. As I mentioned, three were bartenders (two female, one male) who have worked at both bars and huge clubs in a college town. At least one has witnessed a guy drugging a drink that wasn't his (she had him kicked out, but his dozen or so buddies remained). The thing is, it belonged to a girl he hadn't even been talking to. Unless he was planning on chatting her up immediately after and convincing her to go to the bathroom or outside, he was basically wasting GHB, which makes me think he either had a bunch (though it doesn't take much) or it was some sort of game.
I don't get it. I am always confused by irrational behaviour, and this is irrational behaviour. Why would you commit a highly illegal act for no gain? Or is the simple gain of seeing the lady behome incoherent enough?

Why would you drug a bartender, again what would you have to gain? This is not to say it didn't happen, just that it confuses the hell out of me.

And also, please remember that the idea "they had nothing to cover up" doesn't mean they aren't wrong (wow, too many negatives there?). They can be genuinely mistaken. Sure they are experienced drinkers, but even experienced drinkers can be hit unexpectedly hard.
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Old 10-22-2009, 10:15 AM
Mr. Slant Mr.  Slant is offline
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I didn't even realize it was possible to survive a BAC of .31 .
I met a lady who managed a DUI and was tested at .34.
She was still alive 2 years later.
"I started drinking, 'cuz my husband told me I wasn't allowed to drink that night..."
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Old 10-22-2009, 11:07 AM
SmackFu SmackFu is offline
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How do people even get these drugs? They don't seem like something that would be casually prescribed to anyone.
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  #46  
Old 10-22-2009, 11:22 AM
Malthus Malthus is offline
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My own opinion is that I would be very surprised if it didn't happen. Even if it started as an urban legend, potential would-be rapists would be just as convinced of its reality as those fearing to be victims, and presumably some at least would try to imitate the legend as a good 'method'.
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Old 10-22-2009, 11:23 AM
Malthus Malthus is offline
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How do people even get these drugs? They don't seem like something that would be casually prescribed to anyone.
Some of them like GBH are "party drugs" some people do anyway for fun. They get them the same way they get other illegal drugs.
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Old 10-22-2009, 11:24 AM
Dr. Drake Dr. Drake is online now
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My own opinion is that I would be very surprised if it didn't happen. Even if it started as an urban legend, potential would-be rapists would be just as convinced of its reality as those fearing to be victims, and presumably some at least would try to imitate the legend as a good 'method'.
This does happen. Folklorists call it "ostension."
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Old 10-27-2009, 04:06 PM
Freudian Slit Freudian Slit is offline
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A new paper was written about this recently: http://www.google.com/hostednews/ukp...ylZFkThzigTFAQ

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Young women who fear their drinks have been spiked on a night out have often just consumed too much alcohol, academics have said.

Researchers from the University of Kent found the students mistakenly linked sickness, blackouts and dizziness to poisoning by a stranger - when it was likely to be caused by excessive alcohol consumption.

They also found evidence of "active denial" that it was drinking too much that left students "incoherent and incapacitated".
There's a thread about this going on at Jezebel and of course every other comment seems to be that denying that date rape drugs are common is misogyny and stuff like, "I know I was drugged because I just do even though I wasn't tested."
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Old 10-27-2009, 04:34 PM
Malthus Malthus is offline
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This does happen. Folklorists call it "ostension."

Heh cool. I never knew there was a term for it.

But yeah, wanna be rapists will be drawn in by the hype as much as everyone else - though as others have said, I'll be willing to bet that the vast majority are simply drinking a lot.
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