To my friend on FaceBook who has been spewing anti-healthcare-reform messages for the past 6 months

[Athena]

I'm really, really sorry that your childhood friend's son has cancer. It's really tough when a 5 year old gets horribly sick, and I feel for you and his family. No pitting here; I truly do feel badly. And that's why I'm venting in the pit on a totally different message board because I feel like it would be the epitome of bad taste to post this on your Facebook page.

But for the love of GOD, don't you see the fucking irony of you posting questions about how you can help out the family, and wondering if you should hold a spaghetti dinner or make a website that could let people donate via PayPal or have a PartyLite party (whatever the fuck that is ) or any other such fund raising ideas? I know the best way to help out the family - live in a fucking country that has a health care system that provides for 5-year-olds that get cancer. How 'bout you just shut the fuck up about how horrible "Obamacare" is going to be and perhaps engage the health care debate with something other than lameass quotes from Fox News and Rush Limbaugh?

Spaghetti dinners for 5-year-olds with cancer. That's the country we live in.

[black rabbit]

Actually, when they're spewing bullshit about health care, I think it's entirely appropriate to post a comment to the effect of "Weren't you organizing a spaghetti dinner to raise funds for a five-year-old with cancer awhile back? Do you really thing spaghetti dinners are a better solution to our health care problems than a government insurance program?"

Sometimes people have trouble seeing how their ideology directly contradicts their own interests until it's pointed out to them by a third party.

It may be a little pointed for the typical FB comment, but they opened that can of worms by bloviating about politics in the first place.

[Harmonious Discord]

I would have to post one thing on their page. The solution is support health care reform.

It is very funny that they don't even connect this problem with what health care reform is about correcting.

[pbbth]

I get so upset listening to my grandmother tell me about how socialized health care will kill off the elderly people in our nation and then go for her cancer treatments that are paid for by medicare.

[MeanOldLady]

Another Facebook rant? Defriend or hide their news feed.

[tacoloco]

It gets real old when friends decide to (ab)use their facebook wall comments to pontificate like this.

[Harmonious Discord]

Originally Posted by pbbth

I get so upset listening to my grandmother tell me about how socialized health care will kill off the elderly people in our nation and then go for her cancer treatments that are paid for by medicare.

The lady ma helped that died this year was worse. She was set against all Americans getting health care and all riled up from watching stuff on television. A few minutes later she was bitching how the Medicare paid for person had come at 10:00 for her in home bath appointment and wouldn't come back after 18:00, and some other things that she didn't like about another in home service Medicare paid for. The care person was supposed to come back in the evening, because she wanted to sleep all day and stay up all night. She'd go on about all those thousands in dollars services she received and they wouldn't give her more though she should get anything she wanted without it costing her anything.

[Sinaijon]

Originally Posted by Athena

But for the love of GOD, don't you see the fucking irony of you posting questions about how you can help out the family.

I don't see the irony, although I understand why a liberal person might believe it so.

Just because you feel that government shouldn't be involved in a particular issue doesn't mean you don't personally support that issue. It's about the government's role, not the particular issue.

Your friend doesn't believe government should have a role in health care. That doesn't mean he doesn't want people to have access to health care. His willingness to help in whatever way he can is evidence of that.

And you'd be surprised how far spaghetti dinners, silent auctions, fund raisers, etc will go.

[DanBlather]

Originally Posted by Sinaijon

I don't see the irony, although I understand why a liberal person might believe it so.

Just because you feel that government shouldn't be involved in a particular issue doesn't mean you don't personally support that issue. It's about the government's role, not the particular issue.

Your friend doesn't believe government should have a role in health care. That doesn't mean he doesn't want people to have access to health care. His willingness to help in whatever way he can is evidence of that.

And you'd be surprised how far spaghetti dinners, silent auctions, fund raisers, etc will go.

Because it's only unpopular 5 year olds who should die from cancer.

[Dr. Love]

Originally Posted by black rabbit

Sometimes people have trouble seeing how their ideology directly contradicts their own interests until it's pointed out to them by a third party.

Or it could be that Athena's friend is just not as selfish as you are. This is surprising to a certain set of people, but it's entirely possible to believe that (a) some law or policy will benefit you personally, but (b) believe that that law or policty should not be enacted.

[Miller]

Originally Posted by Dr. Love

Or it could be that Athena's friend is just not as selfish as you are. This is surprising to a certain set of people, but it's entirely possible to believe that (a) some law or policy will benefit you personally, but (b) believe that that law or policy should not be enacted.

But the law isn't benefiting them personally. It would be benefiting a five year old who has cancer. Presumably, this person wants that kid to be helped... they just don't want the cost of it to come out of their taxes. Where's the part where they're not being selfish come in, exactly?

[Jack Batty]

They're buying into a spaghetti dinner, aren't they?

[Dr. Love]

Originally Posted by Miller

But the law isn't benefiting them personally. It would be benefiting a five year old who has cancer. Presumably, this person wants that kid to be helped... they just don't want the cost of it to come out of their taxes. Where's the part where they're not being selfish come in, exactly?

Benefit for an immediate family member isn't that different from personal benefit. My only point is: the argument "This law would benefit a member of my immediate family (or myself, or a good friend of mine, or whatever), therefore it should be enacted" is wrong. So, I don't see why black rabbit should be appealing to it.

[Duke]

Originally Posted by Sinaijon

And you'd be surprised how far spaghetti dinners, silent auctions, fund raisers, etc will go.

As someone who's working in fundraising and teaching a fundraising course, I'm honor-bound to call bullshit on this. I've consulted with a number of fundraisers around here, and IME a great silent auction might clear $5-10K. That's a drop in the bucket for most cancer patients, some of whom are going to need $100-200K worth of care. And the spaghetti dinners, basket raffles, and other events usually raise less than that. The $5-10K is only if there are some seriously valuable items in the auction and there are people willing to put up serious money. If I had to use a word to describe how most families feel after a medical-patient fundraiser, that word would be "disappointed." It is an enormous effort for very little money, usually.

Do the math: if a ticket to a spaghetti dinner costs $20, and $5 of that is overhead, how many tickets will you need to sell to raise the $100-200K that a cancer patient might need? Hope you brought enough spaghetti for everyone, is all I can say.

[Equipoise]

Originally Posted by MeanOldLady

Another Facebook rant? Defriend or hide their news feed.

No fucking kidding. Why do people tiptoe around telling these people what idiots they are (perhaps more politely than that)? Why are they even on your friends list? Someone like that would last about 2 seconds on my friend's list. Well, they wouldn't be on my friend's list in the first place, because I don't know any people like that, but if someone suddenly went brain-damaged and started ranting like that, they'd be gone as fast as I could click the Remove button.

These assholes-on-Facebook threads boggle my mind.

[Labrador Deceiver]

Originally Posted by pbbth

I get so upset listening to my grandmother tell me about how socialized health care will kill off the elderly people in our nation and then go for her cancer treatments that are paid for by medicare.

Why? If I was forced to pay into a system for a large part of my working life, I'll damn sure take what is owed to me down the road. I don't see how that's worthy, any more than Canadians who are opposed to UHC, or Americans who would like to be able to opt out of SS.

[Labrador Deceiver]

Originally Posted by Labrador Deceiver

Why? If I was forced to pay into a system for a large part of my working life, I'll damn sure take what is owed to me down the road. I don't see how that's worthy, any more than Canadians who are opposed to UHC, or Americans who would like to be able to opt out of SS.

ETA:

Hang on, I see what you're saying. She's specifically used "kill off the elderly" as a reason. I was responding as if she was just opposed to UHC in general.

[Vinyl Turnip]

Originally Posted by Dr. Love

Or it could be that Athena's friend is just not as selfish as you are. This is surprising to a certain set of people, but it's entirely possible to believe that (a) some law or policy will benefit you personally, but (b) believe that that law or policty should not be enacted.

When I compile Vinyl Turnip's Big Book of Selfish Acts , "wanting every American to have access to affordable, life-sustaining health care" will not figure near the top of the list. Your edition may vary.

[DanBlather]

Originally Posted by Equipoise

No fucking kidding. Why do people tiptoe around telling these people what idiots they are (perhaps more politely than that)? Why are they even on your friends list? Someone like that would last about 2 seconds on my friend's list. Well, they wouldn't be on my friend's list in the first place, because I don't know any people like that, but if someone suddenly went brain-damaged and started ranting like that, they'd be gone as fast as I could click the Remove button.

These assholes-on-Facebook threads boggle my mind.

Is it just me, or do conservatives seem to have no clue that some of this crap is offensive (or at least controversial). I would never consider casually sending out treatises supporting gay marriage to a list of family member or old high school acquaintance. I'd know that it is something that many of them disagree with, and that my mail to a general audience won't sway them. But I get all kinds of crap with the latest Fox trumped-up news hysteria du jour.

[you with the face]

Originally Posted by Miller

Where's the part where they're not being selfish come in, exactly?

Seriously. If I were that kid, struggling to stay alive off the proceeds from some chump change fundraisers, I would not see anyone's opposition to free medical care as a sign of selfishness. We aren't talking about raising money to send the kid to Paris next summer, for Christ's sake. This is his life.

I wonder if the Facebook friend would be willing to support healthcare reform if someone convinced him/her that under UHC the kid would have a better chance of surviving and living a normal life without the side effect of putting his family in the poorhouse.

[Labrador Deceiver]

Originally Posted by DanBlather

Is it just me, or do conservatives seem to have no clue that some of this crap is offensive (or at least controversial). I would never consider casually sending out treatises supporting gay marriage to a list of family member or old high school acquaintance. I'd know that it is something that many of them disagree with, and that my mail to a general audience won't sway them. But I get all kinds of crap with the latest Fox trumped-up news hysteria du jour.

It is my experience that they are isolated in their own little bubbles & don't realize the possibility exists that some of their friends may disagree with them.

[DanBlather]

Originally Posted by Labrador Deceiver

It is my experience that they are isolated in their own little bubbles & don't realize the possibility exists that some of their friends may disagree with them.

That's probably it. Just like being religious is the "default state" in the US, being against Gay marriage and opposing every tax increase seem to be the default state as well. Atheists know that they have a minority position, but some religious people just assume that every normal person believes in God.

[Lobohan]

Originally Posted by DanBlather

That's probably it. Just like being religious is the "default state" in the US, being against Gay marriage and opposing every tax increase seem to be the default state as well. Atheists know that they have a minority position, but some religious people just assume that every normal person believes in God.

I had the pressman (from Oklahoma) at the printshop I managed a couple years ago ask me, "Where do you go to church." I told him, "I don't go, I'm not religious." and he looked at me like I had just told him I sneak into maternity wards and slit infant throats on Thursdays. He got very cold and muttered something about, "Maybe when you're older." I was in my mid-thirties at the time.

I'm sure that he had never in his life met anyone who'd admitted they were an atheist in polite company. I blew his fucking mind.

[Sinaijon]

Originally Posted by DanBlather

Because it's only unpopular 5 year olds who should die from cancer.

Maybe in your circle of friends, but at least in my community, which admittedly is rather small, popularity has very little to do with attendance. Word gets out to the school, churches, etc, and people come to help.

I actually recently organized several of these this past spring for my neighbors daughter, who had brain surgery to remove a tumor. It was pretty heart warming to see people I didn't know show up, introduce themselves to the family, who they also didn't know. A lot of those people were from local churches. Another big chunk were Seniors who used the opportunity to not only help, but also to socialize over a cup of coffee.

As someone else noted, we didn't raise enough money to cover all the medical bills, but it was enough to make things manageable. Tough, but manageable.

[you with the face]

Originally Posted by Sinaijon

As someone else noted, we didn't raise enough money to cover all the medical bills, but it was enough to make things manageable. Tough, but manageable.

Wouldn't it have been better if it saving that kid's life didn't have to be so tough? It's bad enough when family has to come to grips with an illness like cancer. It's even worse when that same family has to resort to hustling on the street corner in order to save a loved one's life.

[Sinaijon]

Originally Posted by you with the face

It's bad enough when family has to come to grips with an illness like cancer.

My neighbor was in tears afterward. Not from the hardship though, but from gratitude at the show of support from the community.

The hardship will be there regardless of who helps out. I think you are dreaming if you think financial hardship will ever be separated from medical hardships. But for my neighbor, the personal support from the community meant much more than a statement mailed at the end of the month would.

[Athena]

Originally Posted by Sinaijon

I think you are dreaming if you think financial hardship will ever be separated from medical hardships.

Er... what exactly are you saying here? Because if you're saying that medical hardship automatically = financial hardship, there are plenty of countries around the world where people couldn't imagine paying one cent for medical care. I don't think it's at all unreasonable to hope that someday the US will join them.

[Sinaijon]

Originally Posted by Athena

there are plenty of countries around the world where people couldn't imagine paying one cent for medical care.

Care to name one?

[woodstockbirdybird]

Originally Posted by Sinaijon

Care to name one?

Pretty sure Athena meant "one cent out-of-pocket", but then, you knew that.

[Athena]

Originally Posted by woodstockbirdybird

Pretty sure Athena meant "one cent out-of-pocket", but then, you knew that.

Yes, of course that's what I meant. They do pay taxes. They don't hold spaghetti dinners to raise money for 5-year-olds with cancer.

[Kalhoun]

Originally Posted by Duke

As someone who's working in fundraising and teaching a fundraising course, I'm honor-bound to call bullshit on this. I've consulted with a number of fundraisers around here, and IME a great silent auction might clear $5-10K. That's a drop in the bucket for most cancer patients, some of whom are going to need $100-200K worth of care. And the spaghetti dinners, basket raffles, and other events usually raise less than that. The $5-10K is only if there are some seriously valuable items in the auction and there are people willing to put up serious money. If I had to use a word to describe how most families feel after a medical-patient fundraiser, that word would be "disappointed." It is an enormous effort for very little money, usually.

Do the math: if a ticket to a spaghetti dinner costs $20, and $5 of that is overhead, how many tickets will you need to sell to raise the $100-200K that a cancer patient might need? Hope you brought enough spaghetti for everyone, is all I can say.

I had a recent stay in the hospital. ONE DAY. Tests, but found nothing wrong:

$12,000

And that's not including the doctor bills.

Please...stop with the spaghetti dinner daydream. You're out of touch with reality.
(agreeing with Duke, in case that wasn't apparent.)

[Kalhoun]

Originally Posted by Sinaijon

Care to name one?

Here's an interesting documentary.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontl...roundtheworld/

[DanBlather]

Originally Posted by Kalhoun

I had a recent stay in the hospital. ONE DAY. Tests, but found nothing wrong:

$12,000

And that's not including the doctor bills.

Please...stop with the spaghetti dinner daydream. You're out of touch with reality.
(agreeing with Duke, in case that wasn't apparent.)

Oh stop whining, that's only 8,000 spaghetti dinners! I think that is the Republican health plan BTW. But Bachman from Minnesota wants to open it to competition with hotdish.

[Merijeek]

Originally Posted by Sinaijon

And you'd be surprised how far spaghetti dinners, silent auctions, fund raisers, etc will go.

How far is that, exactly? How many treatments will it cover? Have any numbers, or just vague handwaving that smells of the rectum when it just came?

-Joe

[Kalhoun]

Originally Posted by DanBlather

Oh stop whining, that's only 8,000 spaghetti dinners! I think that is the Republican health plan BTW. But Bachman from Minnesota wants to open it to competition with hotdish.

And if everyone donates a big pot to cook the pasta in, think of the money you'll save!!

[Kalhoun]

Originally Posted by Sinaijon

Maybe in your circle of friends, but at least in my community, which admittedly is rather small, popularity has very little to do with attendance. Word gets out to the school, churches, etc, and people come to help.

I actually recently organized several of these this past spring for my neighbors daughter, who had brain surgery to remove a tumor. It was pretty heart warming to see people I didn't know show up, introduce themselves to the family, who they also didn't know. A lot of those people were from local churches. Another big chunk were Seniors who used the opportunity to not only help, but also to socialize over a cup of coffee.

As someone else noted, we didn't raise enough money to cover all the medical bills, but it was enough to make things manageable. Tough, but manageable.

The money might cover one parent's salary while they're home with a child that's too sick to get out of bed, but there's no way in hell it's going to cover cancer treatments or complications, infections, relapses, surgeries, etc. It's ridiculous to think of it as anything more than a band-aid on a sucking chest wound.

[MsWhatsit]

And anyway, people who have friends and family that are both willing and able to throw fundraising dinners are lucky. Not everyone has that. I would prefer for our health care system not to be primarily based on luck.

Whatsit Jr. was hospitalized in the NICU for three weeks when he was a small infant, due to complications from RSV and pneumonia. The grand total was somewhere around $80,000. It is tragically hilarious to me to think of the number of spaghetti dinners you'd have to throw to cover even a tiny little fraction of that cost. There's no way you could even get to the "tough but affordable" range. And Whatsit Jr. only had pneumonia, not a sympathy-inspiring disease like cancer, so nobody threw any spaghetti dinners for us anyway.

[Merijeek]

Originally Posted by Kalhoun

The money might cover one parent's salary while they're home with a child that's too sick to get out of bed, but there's no way in hell it's going to cover cancer treatments or complications, infections, relapses, surgeries, etc. It's ridiculous to think of it as anything more than a band-aid on a sucking chest wound.

But the parents will be grateful, and the warm fuzzy that lasts until they actually do the math is worth more than all the insurance in the world!

It's like at the end of A Christmas Carol when Mary Lou Retton does her tumbling down the street.

-Joe

[Sateryn76]

Why are you assuming that the fundraisers are for cancer treatments? I see nothing in th OP that says they have no insurance. Of course, the out-of-pocket expenses are bound to be crazy-expensive, but why do we assume they are for the whole thing?

In my experience (and I've participated in many of these, and, frankly, too many in my immediate family), they are to help pick up costs in addition to the medical treatment, things like replacing a paycheck that may be stopped while the parents take off work, costs for lodging near the hospital, transportation, meals eaten out of the house, things like that. And those kind of fundraisers can make a huge dent in those expenses.

And, I applaud the family for at least trying to so something. Many people would just throw up their hands - I would have spaghetti dinners for the rest of my life in order to pay my expenses, if need be.

[MsWhatsit]

Yeah, you'd pretty much have to have spaghetti dinners for the rest of your life, if that's how you intended to pay your expenses.

[Kalhoun]

Originally Posted by Sateryn76

Why are you assuming that the fundraisers are for cancer treatments? I see nothing in th OP that says they have no insurance. Of course, the out-of-pocket expenses are bound to be crazy-expensive, but why do we assume they are for the whole thing?

In my experience (and I've participated in many of these, and, frankly, too many in my immediate family), they are to help pick up costs in addition to the medical treatment, things like replacing a paycheck that may be stopped while the parents take off work, costs for lodging near the hospital, transportation, meals eaten out of the house, things like that. And those kind of fundraisers can make a huge dent in those expenses.

And, I applaud the family for at least trying to so something. Many people would just throw up their hands - I would have spaghetti dinners for the rest of my life in order to pay my expenses, if need be.

You're right. We did assume no insurance in this instance, and that may not be accurate. However, maybe it IS accurate. If not for this family, then for many, many families who are battling serious illness without insurance.

[Sateryn76]

Originally Posted by DanBlather

Is it just me, or do conservatives seem to have no clue that some of this crap is offensive (or at least controversial). I would never consider casually sending out treatises supporting gay marriage to a list of family member or old high school acquaintance. I'd know that it is something that many of them disagree with, and that my mail to a general audience won't sway them. But I get all kinds of crap with the latest Fox trumped-up news hysteria du jour.

Like to paint with a broad brush there, eh?

I'm a conservative, and do not post those types of things, specifically because I assume most people don't particularly care about my political positions.

Seriously, the amount of Obama knob-slobbing vs. Right Wing blather I see on Facebook is ridiculously slanted toward the Left. It seems that when a Lefty posts their latest "Save the Children/Environment/Poor/Downtrodden" petition, it's no big deal, because it's the correct position, and all of the "GWB Eats a Dick" parody videos are nothing but hilarious.

But anything from the other side? It's the WORST THING EVAR!

[you with the face]

Originally Posted by Sinaijon

My neighbor was in tears afterward. Not from the hardship though, but from gratitude at the show of support from the community.

Yeah, your neighbor was grateful. Aren't most people who have to resort to begging grateful when someone helps them at their most desperate? The only reason your neighbor needed such a show of support is because their kid was in dire straights and they couldn't afford to get them out of it by themselves. And so I'm sure that if your neighbor could back in time and choose between 1) having the opportunity of feeling yummy gratitude warm the cockles of their heart because people gave them handouts and 2) the comfort in knowing that their kid was going to receive care regardless of the turnout at their 50th spaghetti dinner of the month, they'd choose the later. What sane person wouldn't?

But for my neighbor, the personal support from the community meant much more than a statement mailed at the end of the month would.

Sure okay. Whatever you say.

[Sateryn76]

Originally Posted by MsWhatsit

Yeah, you'd pretty much have to have spaghetti dinners for the rest of your life, if that's how you intended to pay your expenses.

Whatever works. I would rather not ask total strangers to pay for me. YMMV.

[whole bean]

Originally Posted by Sateryn76

Whatever works. I would rather not ask total strangers to pay for me. YMMV.

I don't get this, are you suggesting that the spaghetti dinners would be populated entirely by family and friends? $80,000 from family and friends buying your spaghetti? You're an idiot.

Unless you're self-insured or insured through a very small cooperative, total strangers are exactly who is (or will be) paying for you.

[you with the face]

And I'm left wondering why relying on the kindness of total strangers is completely different and somehow worse than relying on the kindness of neighbors, work acquaintances, and extended family members. Why are they more beholden to your care than a stranger?

[Dangerosa]

Originally Posted by Sateryn76

Why are you assuming that the fundraisers are for cancer treatments? I see nothing in th OP that says they have no insurance. Of course, the out-of-pocket expenses are bound to be crazy-expensive, but why do we assume they are for the whole thing?

In my experience (and I've participated in many of these, and, frankly, too many in my immediate family), they are to help pick up costs in addition to the medical treatment, things like replacing a paycheck that may be stopped while the parents take off work, costs for lodging near the hospital, transportation, meals eaten out of the house, things like that. And those kind of fundraisers can make a huge dent in those expenses.

And, I applaud the family for at least trying to so something. Many people would just throw up their hands - I would have spaghetti dinners for the rest of my life in order to pay my expenses, if need be.

My sister, fully insured and an RN spent $20k out of pocket on medical expenses for her breast cancer treatments. That DIDN'T include time off work or the extra help she had around the house or daycare for the kids. She had an $8k out of pocket maximum and reached it in three seperate coverage years.

She'll get another $8k this year because she postponed reconstruction until now.

[Labrador Deceiver]

Originally Posted by you with the face

And I'm left wondering why relying on the kindness of total strangers is completely different and somehow worse than relying on the kindness of neighbors, work acquaintances, and extended family members. Why are they more beholden to your care than a stranger?

That's the first time I've ever heard of taxes referred to as the "kindness of strangers".

[Vinyl Turnip]

Originally Posted by Sateryn76

Seriously, the amount of Obama knob-slobbing vs. Right Wing blather I see on Facebook is ridiculously slanted toward the Left. It seems that when a Lefty posts their latest "Save the Children/Environment/Poor/Downtrodden" petition, it's no big deal, because it's the correct position, and all of the "GWB Eats a Dick" parody videos are nothing but hilarious.

But anything from the other side? It's the WORST THING EVAR!

Oh, confirmation bias... where would we be without you?

[whole bean]

Originally Posted by Dangerosa

My sister, fully insured and an RN spent $20k out of pocket on medical expenses for her breast cancer treatments. That DIDN'T include time off work or the extra help she had around the house or daycare for the kids. She had an $8k out of pocket maximum and reached it in three seperate coverage years.

She'll get another $8k this year because she postponed reconstruction until now.

hope you like spaghetti*


*this is obviously not meant to make light of your sister or your family's terrible predicament, but to show just how dumb the idea is