How racist (if at all) do you think "The Princess and the Frog" will be?

[Sir T-Cups]

I've not yet started a "controversial" topic when it comes to my threads, so I figure this might be a good starting point.

After seeing some extended trailers for the movie it seems like Disney is trying to atone for their lack of black main characters by making a movie of all things black, and while I FULLY understand the need for a black princess in the Disney-verse I wonder how much will be too much?

I'm wondering if Diz is gonna inject so much black culture and references that they are gonna be less "telling it like it is" and more "stereotyping up the wazoo".

Anyone care to opinion on this??

[Freudian Slit]

It makes me wonder. If they just did a black princess story and made it similar to stories in the past with nothing really "black" about it other than skin color, would people be upset about that, too? Like, take, say Cinderella and make her black a la that Rodgers and Hammerstein's Cinderella featuring Brandi and Whitney Houston. But not really acknowledge anyone's race or culture. Would that princess be accused of being too white acting, or an Oreo?

[Unintentionally Blank]

Well, from the trailers, I gather it's a)partially voodoo related, and b) located in the Big Easy. It's hard to tell that story from a whitebread standpoint with that criteria.

Honestly, I wouldn't know if it was stereotyping or not, I guarantee there will be a fringe group that claims it is (whether it is or not), a la Harry Potter and his devil worshipping witchcraft.

[garygnu]

After complaints about the initial ideas about the story, Disney met with black leaders to try to address potential problems. Even with that, there will be issues with some things, but no more than, say, Aladdin.

All animated characters have elements of archetypes, stereotypes, and caricature. They're treating their black characters the same way. Isn't that the ideal situation?

I'm also wondering how much of the film the two leads are in frog form.

[Dangerosa]

Originally Posted by Freudian Slit

It makes me wonder. If they just did a black princess story and made it similar to stories in the past with nothing really "black" about it other than skin color, would people be upset about that, too? Like, take, say Cinderella and make her black a la that Rodgers and Hammerstein's Cinderella featuring Brandi and Whitney Houston. But not really acknowledge anyone's race or culture. Would that princess be accused of being too white acting, or an Oreo?

They really can't win....any hint of stereotypes will be stereotypes, no black princess is racism, too 'white' isn't celebrating the culture...but they've gotten better (really no where to go but up from the portrayal of Native Americans in Peter Pan). They bring in cultural experts now from day one to help them craft their world.

[Czarcasm]

Moving thread from IMHO to Cafe Society.

[obfusciatrist]

I know a dozen people who have seen it, they all say it is pretty much a non-issue.

[Mahaloth]

Here is Entertainment Weekly's review. They loved it and didn't mention racism at all.

Read the review here.

[Odesio]

Originally Posted by Dangerosa

They really can't win....any hint of stereotypes will be stereotypes, no black princess is racism, too 'white' isn't celebrating the culture...but they've gotten better (really no where to go but up from the portrayal of Native Americans in Peter Pan). They bring in cultural experts now from day one to help them craft their world.

I'm going to cut Disney some slack for the Native Americans in Peter Pan. Peter Pan is told from the perspective of a child. The book, play, and adaptations certainly don't have a nuanced view of pirates so why pick on them about Native Americans?

[Marley23]

Originally Posted by Freudian Slit

It makes me wonder. If they just did a black princess story and made it similar to stories in the past with nothing really "black" about it other than skin color, would people be upset about that, too?

Probably, yes. It's hard to simultaneously avoid accusations of stereotypes, whitewashing, and tokenism. I'm not going to see this thing in the first place but I've been expecting this debate and I'm curious about how it's going to turn out.

[dhkendall]

Yeah, Disney doesn't really have a good track record making movies with black characters in them that's not racially insensitive.

(Interesting fact, we own that movie. I got a credit card for the first time just so I could buy that movie for my wife, who had fond memories of the movie as a kid and likes the famous song from that movie. Went to eBay and had to try 3 times, the first two the attempts to buy were mysteriously blocked somehow, I surmised it must be Mickey's Lawyers making good on their threat to make sure that movie never again sullies the shores of N. America. Finally succeeded the third time, just before another attempted injunction (no way, mouse! I won it fair and square!)

Got it on VHS, though, and that format (and our player) is slowly going away. I don't relish having to replace it via DVD, considering all the trouble getting the VHS was ...

[Tours d'Argent]

I'm just wondering what nation the black royalty is supposed to be from. Who is the "princess" the princess of? Who is the frog prince the prince of? What royal house do they come from?

I always wonder about this whenever there is a generic "prince" or "princess" in movies. Who, for instance, was the prince who The Beast used to be? What was he prince of? Was he actually a son of the king of France?

[Ranchoth]

Originally Posted by Argent Towers

I'm just wondering what nation the black royalty is supposed to be from. Who is the "princess" the princess of? Who is the frog prince the prince of? What royal house do they come from?

I always wonder about this whenever there is a generic "prince" or "princess" in movies. Who, for instance, was the prince who The Beast used to be? What was he prince of? Was he actually a son of the king of France?

I'm no expert on the subject, but I think "Princes" under some systems can just be an order of rulers/nobility without actually having to be the sons of the ruling monarch. I don't know the details of how that works—or where, or when—though. (My own preference of dealing with royalty involves more declarations and decapitations. )

[Marley23]

Check Wikipedia.

[Freudian Slit]

Originally Posted by Ranchoth

I'm no expert on the subject, but I think "Princes" under some systems can just be an order of rulers/nobility without actually having to be the sons of the ruling monarch. I don't know the details of how that works—or where, or when—though. (My own preference of dealing with royalty involves more declarations and decapitations. )

That's what I figured, too. Prince just meant like noblemen. Especially in the case of the beast who just lived in a random castle. In the cases of the ones who were the sons of kings, though, I'm not so sure--like Cinderella or The Little Mermaid.

For Tiana, though, I am confused as she's a waitress, right? I guess she becomes a princess when she marries Prince Naveen, like with Belle and Cinderella and so on?

[Revtim]

What is considered offensive and what is not changes so much, even if the film isn't considered offensive today, in ten years it might look like "Birth Of A Nation".

[jayjay]

Is there Mardi Gras "royalty"? I noticed that there is some Mardi Gras imagery (the Poseidon float) at the end of the ads that are running. Do the Krewes have kings and queens?

[Ají de Gallina]

Originally Posted by Revtim

What is considered offensive and what is not changes so much, even if the film isn't considered offensive today, in ten years it might look like "Birth Of A Nation".

You can say that again.

[Marley23]

I wasn't kidding about Wikipedia, actually. It says he's from a fictional kingdom called Maldonia.

[devilsknew]

Didn't Eddie Murphy already do this movie in a transcendent way??

Must we rehash the same tired racialist bullshit every decade, can't we just get over it at this point? We've come a long way, baby. Stop trying to rebuild the wall that has fallen.

[Freudian Slit]

Originally Posted by Odesio

I'm going to cut Disney some slack for the Native Americans in Peter Pan. Peter Pan is told from the perspective of a child. The book, play, and adaptations certainly don't have a nuanced view of pirates so why pick on them about Native Americans?

I don't think the book was nearly as stereotypical. Plus the book wasn't really told from the POV of a child--it seems like it's told from the POV of an omniscient, fairly mature third person with a pretty good sense of humor.

Finally even if it is from a child's perspective doesn't necessarily mean anything. Children get a lot from adults. It's not like kids grow up in a vacuum assuming that all NAs act like that without adults already giving them those images.

[Sage Rat]

Originally Posted by garygnu

I'm also wondering how much of the film the two leads are in frog form.

I thought frogs were French?

(Ahah, that's why it's set in the French Quarter!)

[Sage Rat]

Originally Posted by dhkendall

Yeah, Disney doesn't really have a good track record making movies with black characters in them that's not racially insensitive.

(Interesting fact, we own that movie. I got a credit card for the first time just so I could buy that movie for my wife, who had fond memories of the movie as a kid and likes the famous song from that movie. Went to eBay and had to try 3 times, the first two the attempts to buy were mysteriously blocked somehow, I surmised it must be Mickey's Lawyers making good on their threat to make sure that movie never again sullies the shores of N. America. Finally succeeded the third time, just before another attempted injunction (no way, mouse! I won it fair and square!)

Got it on VHS, though, and that format (and our player) is slowly going away. I don't relish having to replace it via DVD, considering all the trouble getting the VHS was ...

How did it stand up? I remember seeing it as a young child in the 80s and enjoying it, but I'm sure I would have missed anything racist at the time.

[Thudlow Boink]

Originally Posted by Odesio

I'm going to cut Disney some slack for the Native Americans in Peter Pan. Peter Pan is told from the perspective of a child. The book, play, and adaptations certainly don't have a nuanced view of pirates so why pick on them about Native Americans?

Exactly. In fact, to call Tiger Lily et al "Native Americans" is grossly inaccurate. They were native to Never Never Land—not America. Like pirates and fairies, those "Red Indians" were part of the Edwardian child's imagination, and to complain that they were stereotypes is to miss the point.

[Freudian Slit]

Originally Posted by Thudlow Boink

Exactly. In fact, to call Tiger Lily et al "Native Americans" is grossly inaccurate. They were native to Never Never Land—not America. Like pirates and fairies, those "Red Indians" were part of the Edwardian child's imagination, and to complain that they were stereotypes is to miss the point.

But that Edwardian child got that imagination from somewhere. He didn't just come up with it. And let's face it, said Edwardian child was probably being fed with a heavy diet of "Aren't non-Brits awfully savage and uncouth?"

[CalMeacham]

Yeah, Disney doesn't really have a good track record making movies with black characters in them that's not racially insensitive.

Song of the South was still shown in US theaters as recently as 1982. It's not racially insensitive -- it just presents a wayyyy unrealistically rosy picture of race relations in the South.

When the film was first released, the NAACP acknowledged "the remarkable artistic merit" of the film, but decried the "impression it gives of an idyllic master-slave relationship."[5]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Song_of_the_South

If you want to see something that really hasn't aged well, look at the excised scenes from the "Pastoral" portion of Fantasia

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X7o9H...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0dnS0...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eFXDZ...eature=related

The film was once again edited for the 1969 release, this time to remove Sunflower, a centaur depicted as an African-American girl in the Pastoral Symphony segment. According to the Memory Hole, "Performing menial duties for the blonde, white female centaurs, Sunflower is a racial stereotype along the lines of Amos and Andy, Buckwheat, and Aunt Jemima."

http://filmguide.wikia.com/wiki/Fantasia

[Elendil's Heir]

A Newsweek essay on the film's interracial romance: http://www.newsweek.com/id/223508

[Paul in Qatar]

This is the studio that gave us Cool Running, which explained that Black people are funny in the snow. This could not be worse.

[MeanOldLady]

Originally Posted by garygnu

After complaints about the initial ideas about the story, Disney met with black leaders to try to address potential problems.

Black leaders? Uh oh, I hope nobody consulted Al Sharpton.

[The Other Waldo Pepper]

Originally Posted by Paul in Qatar

This is the studio that gave us Cool Running, which explained that Black people are funny in the snow. This could not be worse.

It also gave us The Incredibles, which explained that Black people kick ass in the snow when voiced by Samuel L. Jackson. Isn't it possible they'll get it right this time?

[Bridget Burke]

Originally Posted by Mahaloth

Here is Entertainment Weekly's review. They loved it and didn't mention racism at all.

Read the review here.

I checked out the comments. Several balked at the Randy Newman score; one suggested Quincy Jones as a better choice.

Wikipedia'ing revealed that Quincy Jones was born in Chicago & raised in Washington State. His amazingly versatile career includes discovering Leslie Gore; he wrote "It's My Party." But he has no NOLA links...

Randy Newman lived there very early in his life & visited throughout his childhood. He wrote Louisiana 1927 & has raised money for the city, post-Katrina. Given his long history of writing movie scores, I'm not worried.

I don't go out for many movies, but this might be worth a trip. It will be interesting to read comments from people who have actually seen the film.

[Freudian Slit]

Quincy Jones may not have lived in Louisiana but maybe the commenter just meant that he was a better composer/producer than Randy Newman? I know whose music I'd rather listen to.

[smiling bandit]

Originally Posted by Paul in Qatar

This is the studio that gave us Cool Running, which explained that Black people are funny in the snow. This could not be worse.

... I like Cool Runnings. It's an incredibly stupid, stereotyped, predictable movie about Jamaican Bobsledders! How can you not love that?!

[The Evil Prince Zorte]

I saw the film, and didn't think there was any trouble, beyond the stereotyping that is inevitable. There is always some kind stereotyping in movies because it serves quickly define a character in terms everyone understands. To get an idea, read the (4 last I checked) negative reviews at Rotten Tomatoes. They all disliked the film on the basis of race, rather than on its own merits, and seemed to have gone into the experience expecting to have a problem with it. One of the comments to those reviews remarked that some people can find racism in a glass of water. It isn't a 100% authentic representation of Southern black culture, but what animated film is an authentic representation of anything?

Several reviews scoffed that Disney proudly proclaims their first African American princess, and then avoids the issue by making her a frog most of the time, somehow negating her race. However a central message of the film is that surface isn't what matters, it is who you are, whether black or white, rich or poor, frog or human.

The main objections seems to be that Tiana isn't black enough, but then maybe the real problem is she isn't frog enough. I've never seen a frog as light green and she is far prettier than your average amphibian.

Take that all with a grain of salt. I can't have a truly informed opinion about this because I am white, and in denial of the inherent racism that lurks deep within every white American's soul.

[RachelChristine]

Just a teensy bit of googling will find the loads of articles about the name change. The princess was originally to be named Maddy, before they changed it to Tiana (I think the Prince had a name change too). You can find lots of articles for and against each name, which I found hilarious.

[Dangerosa]

Originally Posted by Revtim

What is considered offensive and what is not changes so much, even if the film isn't considered offensive today, in ten years it might look like "Birth Of A Nation".

And that's really the issue with Peter Pan's Indians. 1940s portrayals of a Edwardian child's imagination of "Red Injuns" is not in line with late 20th century/early 21st century cultural sensitivity awareness.

[Unintentionally Blank]

Originally Posted by Dangerosa

And that's really the issue with Peter Pan's Indians. 1940s portrayals of a Edwardian child's imagination of "Red Injuns" is not in line with late 20th century/early 21st century cultural sensitivity awareness.

Which really means people oughta lighten up.

We lament the loss of anything that reminds us of the past

yet

can't possibly stand when it REALLY DOES represent the past.

Heck, but a Surgeon General warning on it I hope we look back at the whole Political Correctness era as overbearingly unnecessary.

[Drain Bead]

Originally Posted by Paul in Qatar

This is the studio that gave us Cool Running, which explained that Black people are funny in the snow. This could not be worse.

Wasn't that at least somewhat based on a true story? Or am I just hallucinating that whole Winter Olympics with the Jamaican Bobsled Team?

[Elendil's Heir]

At least a little reality-based: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jamaica...l_bobsled_team

[Malthus]

Originally Posted by Freudian Slit

But that Edwardian child got that imagination from somewhere. He didn't just come up with it. And let's face it, said Edwardian child was probably being fed with a heavy diet of "Aren't non-Brits awfully savage and uncouth?"

As an aside, I was recently reminded of E.T. Seaton's Two Little Savages (a book I loved as a kid) which is a thinly veiled autobiographical account of an Edwardian schoolkid growing up with the usual childhood interest in Indians as an exotic other, and taking that interest ... quite far.

[Seaton became founder of the "league of woodcraft indians", which strongly influenced the Boy Scouts - though the latter, under the leadership of Baden-Powell, purged the "Indian" out of the organization]

Anyway, Seaton's a fascinating character - a pivotal figure in the development of a concept of animal rights, intererested in early Feminism, in the rights of native north americans, a famous artist and naturalist, and of course an excellent writer - though his account of himself is often as much myth as reality, according to his biographer.

Of how many others can it be said that they caused a sensation among the artistic set in Paris (Seaton was arrested for suspicion of murder when setting up props for his masterpiece for the Academy, a picture involving wolves gnawing on a human corpse - the picture was rejected as "grotesque") and, a few years later, was chased out of Texas for suspicion of cattle-stealing?

Anyway end of digression ...

[Elendil's Heir]

Nitpick: it's "Seton," not Seaton: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernest_Thompson_Seton

[Malthus]

Originally Posted by Elendil's Heir

Nitpick: it's "Seton," not Seaton: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernest_Thompson_Seton

No prob.

Interestingly, according to his biographer, he adopted the name "Seton" because he strongly believed his family had claim to a title of nobility under that name (apparently, not in reality). He also did it to spite his father, whom he hated.

Also, he famously considered his father an ogre of cruelty (again, allegedly mostly untrue).

[Paul in Qatar]

I would point out that Lt Devon Harris, JDF, was a graduate of the Canadian Northern Warfare course. He has no trouble at all with cold weather.

[Malthus]

Originally Posted by Paul in Qatar

I would point out that Lt Devon Harris, JDF, was a graduate of the Canadian Northern Warfare course. He has no trouble at all with cold weather.

[Serenata67]

Originally Posted by Dangerosa

They really can't win....any hint of stereotypes will be stereotypes, no black princess is racism, too 'white' isn't celebrating the culture...but they've gotten better (really no where to go but up from the portrayal of Native Americans in Peter Pan). They bring in cultural experts now from day one to help them craft their world.

It's very damned if you do, damned if you don't. I give them props for doing it regardless of how it may be perceived and the flack they may get.

[Tours d'Argent]

Originally Posted by Malthus

The Jamaican guy from the bobsled team, I'm assuming.

[TWDuke]

http://www.devonharrislive.com/