Why is Cantonese the predominant dialect in Chinatowns?

[tofergregg]

In the U.S. and Canada, the primary dialect in Chinatowns is Cantonese. How did this come about, and has it shifted over time? Thanks!

[Tim R. Mortiss]

Wild-ass guess: The southern part of China (where Cantonese is spoken) is poorer than the north (where Mandarin is spoken), and hence many more of its residents fled looking for a new life in the Americas.

[KarlGauss]

In Toronto, at least, with a HUGE 'Chinatown', that's no longer the case. Mandarin is now more common.

As an aside, do people of Chinese ethnicity feel that the term 'Chinatown' is demeaning or offensive?

[GilaB]

In the NYC Chinatown, I believe that Fujianese is now more common than Cantonese, and many speak Mandarin as well, or only Mandarin. The NYT had an article on the shift recently.

[Siam Sam]

Originally Posted by Tim R. Mortiss

Wild-ass guess: The southern part of China (where Cantonese is spoken) is poorer than the north (where Mandarin is spoken), and hence many more of its residents fled looking for a new life in the Americas.

I believe that is correct. And that Fujian province is especially well known as an exporter of people.

A bit of trivia (unless I have it completely screwed up): The oldest Chinatown in the US is Honolulu's. However, the entire Chinatown burned down in a giant conflagration in 1900, so the buildings that are there now do not date as far back as in some others.

There are also Chiu Chow speakers in the South, and a lot of overseas Chinease, such as my wife's family, are Chiu Chow.

[Ají de Gallina]

In Peru, most Chinese immigrant spoke/speak Cantonese and some Hakka.
Mandsrin is a relative newcomer.
This is because they came from the south.

[jjimm]

Because the Chinese diaspora came largely (but not exclusively) from southern China, and the majority from Cantonese-speaking areas. Though Fujian (and the Hakkanese) also contributed, as noted above.

I know nothing about the current language shift, though, but I will note anecdotally that Chinese-speaking people I know are adept at to picking up other dialects of Chinese, even though they are sometimes mutually unintelligible.

[not_alice]

Is it possible for children in Chinatown, such as in NY to grow up not speaking any Chinese dialect at all and hence unable to communicate with their parents who speak no English?

[Siam Sam]

Originally Posted by not_alice

Is it possible for children in Chinatown, such as in NY to grow up not speaking any Chinese dialect at all and hence unable to communicate with their parents who speak no English?

I believe these things usually go another generation. You have the immigrants who speak only their native language. Then their children learn the parents' native language and the local lingo. Then it's the grandchildren who can't communicate with the grandparents.

[not_alice]

That's my experience too in my current (non-Chinese) gf's family, and my father relates something similar in our own family way back when.

But when I was in college, my gf, from NY's Chinatown, youngest daughter, insisted that she spoke no Chinese. I never really met the parents or other family, and other evidence was inconclusive I guess. It's a huge mystery to me how someone can't at least speak enough to communicate with Mom and Dad (who were still alive at the time), or why someone would lie about it.

Has anyone else come across a similar situation?

[HazelNutCoffee]

Originally Posted by Siam Sam

I believe these things usually go another generation. You have the immigrants who speak only their native language. Then their children learn the parents' native language and the local lingo. Then it's the grandchildren who can't communicate with the grandparents.

Yeah, unless the family makes an effort, by the time the third generation rolls around the kids have little to no fluency in their grandparents' native tongue. I've met second-generation Asian-Americans who can just barely speak enough to hold a conversation, and I've never met a third-generation kid who speaks more than basic words. Sometimes the parents actively discourage the kids from learning their native language, other times the kids don't want to, or are too lazy to put in the effort.

[An Gadaí]

Originally Posted by KarlGauss

As an aside, do people of Chinese ethnicity feel that the term 'Chinatown' is demeaning or offensive?

Maybe some, but the Chinese community in Dublin has actively wanted to brand an area of the city Chinatown.

[tofergregg]

Thanks for the interesting replies. Also interesting news about Toronto's Chinatown transitioning to Mandarin.

[Mr. Excellent]

Side note - but given that not all Chinese "dialects" are mutually intelligible, why do we still call them dialects? I thought that mutual intelligibility was the sine qua non of dialects - it might take a bit of effort, but I can understand pretty much any other English speaker in the world, regardless of regional dialect. Even if the accent is very thick, a transcription will give me no problem that all, or very little.

[Waffle Decider]

Originally Posted by KarlGauss

As an aside, do people of Chinese ethnicity feel that the term 'Chinatown' is demeaning or offensive?

I'm originally from Hong Kong and I'm ethnically Chinese. No, I don't find the word 'Chinatown' offensive in anyway, nor do I know of anyone who may be offended by it.

Regarding kids and their parents, one thing to consider is that they may speak to each other in different languages. For example, even though I grew up in HK and I was surrounded by Cantonese speakers, my parents are originally from Indonesia and they are Mandarin speakers. I would speak to them in Cantonese and they would speak to me in Mandarin, and we can understand each other just fine. It may seem strange to people observing the conversation though. However, I'm going to have a very hard time actually speaking Mandarin myself. I even have a very hard time understanding most Mandarin speakers from China, since my parents have an accent that is quite different from the standard.

I can forget about speaking with my grandparents though. They only speak their dialects (Hakka and Hokkien) and Indonesian.

[not_alice]

Originally Posted by Waffle Decider

I'm originally from Hong Kong and I'm ethnically Chinese. No, I don't find the word 'Chinatown' offensive in anyway, nor do I know of anyone who may be offended by it.

Regarding kids and their parents, one thing to consider is that they may speak to each other in different languages.

Sure, but in the case I mentioned, the GF insisted Mom spoke no English, entirely feasible in that neighborhood, and she herself spoke no Chinese. While she was studying languages in school, those were the sort that the US government is interested in (In a RealPolitik sense), not something Mom would be likely to know if you catch my drift. And even then, she was starting from scratch as a freshman.

Of course it is possible I was lied to, but then the question is why? What is the point of persuading me that you can't converse with your own mother? OTOH, I have long heard she is a spy now

[Chronos]

Side note - but given that not all Chinese "dialects" are mutually intelligible, why do we still call them dialects? I thought that mutual intelligibility was the sine qua non of dialects - it might take a bit of effort, but I can understand pretty much any other English speaker in the world, regardless of regional dialect. Even if the accent is very thick, a transcription will give me no problem that all, or very little.

The Chinese situation is complicated a bit by the fact that the written forms are mutually intelligible, even though the spoken forms aren't. So if you're talking about writing, then it's one language with multiple dialects, but if you're talking about speech, then it's multiple languages.

Then there's also the old saw about how a language is a dialect with an army and a navy. Since they're all from the same country, there's an inclination to think of them all as one language, even when that's wrong.

[China Guy]

Originally Posted by Mr. Excellent

Side note - but given that not all Chinese "dialects" are mutually intelligible, why do we still call them dialects? I thought that mutual intelligibility was the sine qua non of dialects - it might take a bit of effort, but I can understand pretty much any other English speaker in the world, regardless of regional dialect. Even if the accent is very thick, a transcription will give me no problem that all, or very little.

Probably because of the unified written language. That and when linguists were making the distinction, the number that studied/understood Asian languages was very small compared to the European languages.

[Throatwarbler Mangrove]

Originally Posted by Mr. Excellent

Side note - but given that not all Chinese "dialects" are mutually intelligible, why do we still call them dialects? I thought that mutual intelligibility was the sine qua non of dialects - it might take a bit of effort, but I can understand pretty much any other English speaker in the world, regardless of regional dialect. Even if the accent is very thick, a transcription will give me no problem that all, or very little.

You might still call them dialects, every source on linguistics that I've read refers to them as languages and members of the Chinese linguistic family.

It is questionable whether the written forms would be mutually intelligible, as they don't necessarily exist for all the different Chinese languages. A newspaper written completely in Cantonese, that is, an exact transcription of it as if it were spoken Cantonese with all the words and articles that do not exist in Mandarin, may still be passably legible to a Mandarin speaker, in the same way that a Norwegian could probably puzzle out written passage of Swedish, but he can definitely tell that it is a different language. Cantonese newspapers and magazines are still published in Hong Kong, but I've never seen such a thing on the mainland.

The thing about Chinese that most people, even native Chinese who aren't linguists, miss is that there is a third "dialect" of Chinese, "Wen Yan Wen" or "Classical Chinese" , that served as a written liturgical language of sorts throughout the Imperial era. So the educated of Northern and Southern China of the 17th Century could correspond a "unified written language", that is, Classical Chinese, in the same way their educated European contemporaries could in Latin. They could have been just as unintelligible in spoken correspondence as they would be today. Use of Classical Chinese was discontinued towards the end of the Imperial era, replaced with essentially the written form of Mandarin. Mao Ze Dong and Chiang Kai Shek could (and IIRC did) write to each other in classical Chinese, as they would have been amongst the very last generation to have been taught the liturgical written language. Neither of them would have been very intelligible in Mandarin and certainly neither spoke the other's dialect. Few living people outside of academic specialists would be very familiar with it today.

[Wendell Wagner]

Also, there's an old-fashioned habit of referring to non-European languages as dialects, as though any non-European language was just some obscure little lingo that hardly counts as a language. This habit is now disappearing for obvious reasons.

[Waffle Decider]

Originally Posted by Throatwarbler Mangrove

It is questionable whether the written forms would be mutually intelligible, as they don't necessarily exist for all the different Chinese languages. A newspaper written completely in Cantonese, that is, an exact transcription of it as if it were spoken Cantonese with all the words and articles that do not exist in Mandarin, may still be passably legible to a Mandarin speaker, in the same way that a Norwegian could probably puzzle out written passage of Swedish, but he can definitely tell that it is a different language. Cantonese newspapers and magazines are still published in Hong Kong, but I've never seen such a thing on the mainland.

That is correct. Newly arrived Chinese immigrants in HK often report that even the newspapers are difficult to understand, and those are not even in full written Cantonese. They would be completely lost in an Internet message board, where almost everything is written in colloquial Cantonese.

[The Second Stone]

Originally Posted by KarlGauss

In Toronto, at least, with a HUGE 'Chinatown', that's no longer the case. Mandarin is now more common.

As an aside, do people of Chinese ethnicity feel that the term 'Chinatown' is demeaning or offensive?

I've lived in the SF area my whole life, including the city and know many Cantonese speakers. Nobody in my presence has ever complained about Chinatown. That's really what it is. Several square block area of Chinese immigrants and descendents with fake architectural details and packed with Chinese shops and culture. Be aware that the term "Chinaman" and its variations are offensive.

San Francisco has a Japantown too, but it is entirely modern buildings in the Fillmore where before WWII the Japanese immigrants liked to live. They were moved out to internment camps in WWII and had to sell very quick.

[Mangosteen]

Speaking of Cantonese and not being able to communicate with ones mother.

Years ago I lived in Hong Kong. I met an Australian women who had come to Hong Kong about a year before. The "great job" that was promised her didn't work out and she ended up having to work many hours in a bar to make ends meet.

The problem was that she had arrived with her two sons, 5 and 6 years old. She only had money enough to live in a rather run down flat and certainly didn't have the money to enroll the kids in a school for foreign English speaking children. The boys attended the local elementary school where only Cantonese was spoken.

The boys quickly picked up the language and soon even began to speak to each other in Cantonese! Because the mother spent so much time working, the neighbors "adopted" the boys and allowed them to spend hours at their homes.

The mother would only spend time with them on Sundays and she often complained to me how poor their English had become, even to the point where she had trouble communicating with them.

Riding on the bus with the boys was really a laugh. Both of them were blue eyed blonds and to see absolutely flawless Cantonese come out of their mouths while talking to each other was a sight to see (and hear). The bus driver and other locals on the bus could not believe their ears.

I sure hope the boys stayed in Hong Kong and didn't neglect their English for too long. A foreigner who could speak both English and Cantonese fluently like they could certainly would be able to find a good job in Hong Kong. At least I would think so.

[not_alice]

Originally Posted by Mangosteen

A foreigner who could speak both English and Cantonese fluently like they could certainly would be able to find a good job in Hong Kong. At least I would think so.

Or almost anywhere in the world! Those kinds of kids are the kids of the future, for sure.

[China Guy]

Originally Posted by not_alice

Sure, but in the case I mentioned, the GF insisted Mom spoke no English, entirely feasible in that neighborhood, and she herself spoke no Chinese. While she was studying languages in school, those were the sort that the US government is interested in (In a RealPolitik sense), not something Mom would be likely to know if you catch my drift. And even then, she was starting from scratch as a freshman.

It's really unlikely that your ex did not understand what her mother was saying. But being able to understand your Mom does not mean you can speak or speak with any kind of fluency. And depending on your ex and the time she grew up, it may not have been "cool" to speak or pretend to speak anything other than English. Her parents may have also encouraged her not to speak their native dialect so she would grow up to be a successful lawyer or doctor.

[not_alice]

Originally Posted by China Guy

It's really unlikely that your ex did not understand what her mother was saying. But being able to understand your Mom does not mean you can speak or speak with any kind of fluency. And depending on your ex and the time she grew up, it may not have been "cool" to speak or pretend to speak anything other than English. Her parents may have also encouraged her not to speak their native dialect so she would grow up to be a successful lawyer or doctor.

Some of all that I think. It seems inconceivable to me, having known many more immigrant families since then, that she not know some Chinese. To me any would have been cool indeed, she was my girlfriend! This was ~1981 or so. Why she hid it instead of just explaining about her family (which was very different from my suburban NJ upbringing) is a weird mystery. I am not aware of any other secrets, it is not like this was a 2 week or even 2 month thing....

[flodnak]

Originally Posted by Throatwarbler Mangrove

in the same way that a Norwegian could probably puzzle out written passage of Swedish, but he can definitely tell that it is a different language.

Minor correction: most adult Norwegians can read Swedish relatively easily. This isn't quite as true the other way around, but it's simply because Sweden has twice the population of Norway. Norwegians quite simply have more exposure to Swedish than Swedes have to Norwegian.

In both Scandinavia and China, the old joke about a language being a dialect with an army has some real-world relevance. You could argue that Norwegian, Swedish and Danish are all dialects of the same language - but wars have started over less.

[md2000]

The original "Chinatown" inhabitnats tended to be coolies imported from the Hong Kong area to work on the railroads across Canada and the USA. Hence, Cantonese. This was reinforced in the 1960's and 1970's, as richer Hong Kong residents saw the cultural revolution and its aftermath. Especially in Canada, Britain, and Australia, these residents as British subjects had a bit of an edge in getting in. The English exposure they already ahd didn't hurt either.

Hong Kong was on a 150-year lease to Britain and was due back to China in 1997. Many families shipped their kids overseas for a good education, and due to much more lax immigration laws then, this gave them a head start in getting foreign or dual citizenship - a safety net for 1997.

One third of the graduating class in my private school was Hong Kong students who came over for that last year of high school, since it simplified entry into university. As citizens, then then brought the rest of their families over.

Once things began to loosen up in the 1980's, people who wanted to emigrate sometimes could (unlike the iron curtain countries). China also began to sent students abroad for education, to pick up what they had fallen behind on in the earlier decades. This was a large mix of people, but generally, the language was more likely to be Mandarin than Cantonese.

The illegal immigrants coming to the USA and elsewhere nowadays come from all sorts of poorer areas of CHina, which explains the variety of dialects.

There was an interesting article about language in The Economist several years ago. The Chinese government likes to push the view that they are one harmonious whole; they want to hide the fact that they are actually, like Europe, a large collection of diverse ethnic groups that were assimilated (in various ways) over the millenia of empire, much like latin and the Romans. Hence the diversity of languages, and of dialects.

Some more obscure groups have pretty much disappeared liguistically, but their pronunciation shows their origins. There are groups where their original grammar is overlaid on Mandarin words. (Much like Yiddish to English - "That I should be wanting?"). But for the harmony of the center, and to prevent the threat of separatist movements, these differences are not allowed to be discussed. The Chinese government is well aware that in times of troubles, the edges tended to separate off from the center.

Mind you, the modern ethnic minorities are treated better; but as the Tibetans and Uiguirs(?) among others complain, there does seem to be a tendency to push central Chinese settlers into their area to dilute their numbers.

[Floater]

Originally Posted by flodnak

Minor correction: most adult Norwegians can read Swedish relatively easily. This isn't quite as true the other way around, but it's simply because Sweden has twice the population of Norway. Norwegians quite simply have more exposure to Swedish than Swedes have to Norwegian.

In both Scandinavia and China, the old joke about a language being a dialect with an army has some real-world relevance. You could argue that Norwegian, Swedish and Danish are all dialects of the same language - but wars have started over less.

If you ask me Danish, Norwegian and Swedish are three dialect groups within the Scandinavian language (an opinion I adopted from a Norwegian friend).

As for Norwegians understanding Swedish better than we understand Norwegian I'm ashamed to say that I think it's mostly a matter of uninterest coupled with laziness.

On the other hand I was once taught that if someone comes to the library and asks for literature on a specific subject and the only book you have is in Danish just hand it over with a little white lie that it's Norwegian (Swedes are notorious for thinking that Danish is so incomprehensible that it's not worth even the slightest effort to learn to understand it). It should work as long as it's written in Bokmål.

[Anne Neville]

Originally Posted by Chronos

Then there's also the old saw about how a language is a dialect with an army and a navy. Since they're all from the same country, there's an inclination to think of them all as one language, even when that's wrong.

Not just that. They're all from one country whose government actively promotes the idea that they're all dialects of one language. That idea is compatible with the idea that China is one unified country, and that's a concept that the Chinese government very much wants to promote.

[Ultraviolet]

Originally Posted by not_alice

It's a huge mystery to me how someone can't at least speak enough to communicate with Mom and Dad (who were still alive at the time), or why someone would lie about it.

Has anyone else come across a similar situation?

One of my friends from Vancouver has parents who came from China. She does not speak Chinese at all. There were seven children in her family, and she is the youngest. I think the older children served as translators in her case.

[md2000]

Originally Posted by Ultraviolet

One of my friends from Vancouver has parents who came from China. She does not speak Chinese at all. There were seven children in her family, and she is the youngest. I think the older children served as translators in her case.

Somewhat similar but affectionate: http://mymomisafob.com/

[fandango]

Originally Posted by Mr. Excellent

Side note - but given that not all Chinese "dialects" are mutually intelligible, why do we still call them dialects? I thought that mutual intelligibility was the sine qua non of dialects - it might take a bit of effort, but I can understand pretty much any other English speaker in the world, regardless of regional dialect. Even if the accent is very thick, a transcription will give me no problem that all, or very little.

I think most modern linguists don't really view "dialect" as a technical term--they're all considered "languages". Politics is different and politicians have agendas, in China it is to emphasize homogeneity. In the Balkans it is the opposite. Lastly, as mentioned above, there was a Euro-centric convention awhile back to dismiss most non-European languages as "dialects"

[Athena]

Originally Posted by not_alice

But when I was in college, my gf, from NY's Chinatown, youngest daughter, insisted that she spoke no Chinese. I never really met the parents or other family, and other evidence was inconclusive I guess. It's a huge mystery to me how someone can't at least speak enough to communicate with Mom and Dad (who were still alive at the time), or why someone would lie about it.

Has anyone else come across a similar situation?

Spoke no Chinese, or understood no?

I've met more than one person who didn't speak their parent's language, but could understand it perfectly. I used to think that was very weird until I realized that I was much better at understanding French than actually speaking it.

If the parents can understand (but not speak) English, and the kids can understand (but not speak) Chinese, then they can at least communicate.

[not_alice]

Originally Posted by Athena

Spoke no Chinese, or understood no?

I've met more than one person who didn't speak their parent's language, but could understand it perfectly. I used to think that was very weird until I realized that I was much better at understanding French than actually speaking it.

If the parents can understand (but not speak) English, and the kids can understand (but not speak) Chinese, then they can at least communicate.

Yeah, I see that in parts of my present gf's family (not Chinese, but still, they all immigrated here in my lifetime, at various ages).

But in the case of the Chinese, the claim was no understanding either.

I just have always carried with me how said it must be for a mother not to be able to communicate with a child, yet to be fully present in each other's lives. I have a hard time grasping how that can happen.

[Siam Sam]

Bangkok's Chinatown is large and heavily promoted in the tourist literature. No one objects to the term. This is the first inkling I've ever had that anyone could possibly take offense at it.

There's a Thai Town somewhere near Los Angeles. I believe that's the actual name of the community. Established by Thai immigrants.

[China Guy]

Originally Posted by Anne Neville

Not just that. They're all from one country whose government actively promotes the idea that they're all dialects of one language. That idea is compatible with the idea that China is one unified country, and that's a concept that the Chinese government very much wants to promote.

Yes, I think that is true too. When I wrote the guidebook on China in the 1980's, all my research had Tibetan as part of the Tibeto-Burman language family. These days, many (most?) linguists are touting Tibetan as part of the Sinetic (Chinese) language family. It may be true, but it is certainly convenient for Beijing.

[outlierrn]

Originally Posted by Siam Sam

A bit of trivia (unless I have it completely screwed up): The oldest Chinatown in the US is Honolulu's. However, the entire Chinatown burned down in a giant conflagration in 1900, so the buildings that are there now do not date as far back as in some others.

Maybe I have it completely screwed up, but I thought there was a chinatown in the state of California long before there was a state of Hawaii.

[Siam Sam]

Originally Posted by outlierrn

Maybe I have it completely screwed up, but I thought there was a chinatown in the state of California long before there was a state of Hawaii.

Hawaii didn't just pop into existence in 1959 when it became a state. It was Hawaii for quite a long time before that, and the Chinatown in Honolulu predates any in California.

[not_alice]

Originally Posted by Siam Sam

Hawaii didn't just pop into existence in 1959 when it became a state. It was Hawaii for quite a long time before that, and the Chinatown in Honolulu predates any in California.

So that would presumably be before 1848 since there were certainly Chinese in CA at or soon after the gold rush.

I honestly don't know - how did the Hawaiians and the Chinese get along? Why were the Chinese there if not en route to the Americas? Was there significant trade between China and Hawaii, enough to support a Chinatown? Were there corresponding Hawaiians in China for that matter?

[Siam Sam]

Originally Posted by not_alice

So that would presumably be before 1848 since there were certainly Chinese in CA at or soon after the gold rush.

I honestly don't know - how did the Hawaiians and the Chinese get along? Why were the Chinese there if not en route to the Americas? Was there significant trade between China and Hawaii, enough to support a Chinatown? Were there corresponding Hawaiians in China for that matter?

It was a big whaling center from just after the turn of the 19th century, especially Lahaina on Maui. In fact, the bay or harbor by Lahaina is a big mating ground. Nowadays, you can take whale-watching trips out of there. New England missionaries started flocking to Hawaii shortly after 1800, which is just about the time an incipient Honolulu, on Oahu, began forming. The Chinese began arriving soon after. A boom town was forming.

Some of those missionaries founded family dynasties that still predominate today to some extent. Such as Mr. Dole, these days of pineapple-plantation fame.

An excellent read is James Michener's Hawaii. I was reading that at the time I moved to Hawaii way back when and found it pretty close factually.

[Siam Sam]

Ah, here we go: Honolulu's Chinatown is the first Chinatown to be created outside Asia.

San Francisco's Chinatown was the first one in North America, but of course not only does Honolulu's predate it, Hawaii is not part of North America. It's Polynesia.

More on whaling (and I'm relying on my memory here): In addition to American whalers, Britain, Russia and Japanese whalers hunted around Hawaii extensively in the 19th century, and they all eyed adding Hawaii to their territory, which is one reason the US eventually decided to hurry up and get in while it could.

No, I know of no Hawaiians in China back then.

[not_alice]

Thanks, that all makes sense. Maybe I will pick up that book. I am from the Chesapeake region, I never read Michener's Chesapeake either. Maybe I should!

[Siam Sam]

Well, I grew up in Texas but never read his Texas. I've spent time in Mexico and found his Mexico just okay. But his Hawaii was really good.

[outlierrn]

Originally Posted by Siam Sam

Hawaii didn't just pop into existence in 1959 when it became a state. It was Hawaii for quite a long time before that, and the Chinatown in Honolulu predates any in California.

I was taking a crack at a joke, the chinatown in Honolulu became a chinatown in the United States in 1959, thus not the oldest one in the United States.

[not_alice]

Hmm this was interesting, from yesterday's LA TImes:

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la...5.story?page=2

Steve Yee's older sister Lillie was the only child who understood enough of the home village dialect to communicate with their mother, who spoke no English.

Th children in this family appear to be about 10 years older than the family of my college girlfriend, so maybe it is more common that I thought.

I also never heard of the phenomenon "Paper Son" which is the overall thrust of the linked article, before reading this this morning.