What are the linguistic differences among Mandarin Chinese, Hakka, and Wu?
For instance, I know that there are two glaringly obvious linguistic differences between Mandarin and Cantonese. One is that Cantonese allows word-final k, t, p (pronounced weakly), where as Mandarin does not. Secondly, Cantonese speakers employ nine distinct tones, whereas Mandarin speakers use four. On top of that, there are innumerable vocabulary differences between Mandarin and Cantonese.
So, where do Hakka and Wu fit in? What are their linguistic marks of distinction? How might their differences with Mandarin best be described?
Whew, you’re not asking for much, are ya? Well, I put “linguistic differences among Mandarin Chinese Hakka Wu” into Google and got a bunch of stuff, but I’m sorry, I don’t have a “25 words or less” answer.
IANALinguist. I am a pretty fluent non-native Mandarin speaker living in Shanghai and pretty much surrounded by Shanghaiese. Wu would be probably considered Shanghai, Zhejiang and Jiangsu area, although there are an awful lot of sub-dialects in this region.
Shanghaiese and Mandarin are mutually incomprehensible even for native speakers. A lot of the common vocabulary is different, and the pronounciations is very different. Shanghaiese does not have the complexity of Cantonese tones. Shanghaiese has a lot of sounds like the beginning of “ve” as in very, Zsa as in Zsa Zsa Gabor.
Hakka, of which I speak not a word, is a bit more interesting as the Hakka are not confined to a general geographic location such as the Cantonese or Shanghaiese. The Hakka are scattered throughout Funjian, Guangdong, Guangxi and Taiwan and SE Asia. I forget the historical reasons, but they were never really allowed to settle or were driven out of there traditional areas. Thus, there was quite a scattering of the Hakka, but they generally speak a mutually comprehensible language. Again, mutually incomprehensible with Mandarin.
Well, Monty, my ex-wife is ethnically Chinese, and born in Saigon. She speaks Cantonese as it is spoken in Hong Kong. When I travelled to HK with her, she had no difficulty at all being understood, and certainly didn’t mention any perceived language differences to me. It must be said though, that her parents speak a different dialect when talking to each other (I forgot which), but they were not born in Vietnam. They made a point of teaching their nine children only Cantonese and Vietnamese “to fit in with the locals”.
I’ve been to Saigon twice, and both times, I went to the “Chinatown” of Cho Lon. To my relatively untrained ears, the language spoken by everyone I heard seemed to be normal Cantonese.
I also work with a large number of Vietnamese people, many of whom are Chinese-speakers from the Saigon area. They speak Cantonese not only to each other, but to Cantonese-speaking migrants from Hong Kong and elsewhere.
Sorry, I don’t have a better cite for you just now (I’m open to the idea that there are most likely other types of Chinese spoken in the Saigon area), but I’ll ask some of the Sino-Vietnamese guys at work tomorrow for the straight dope on this, and get back to you if I can come up with anything.
Monty I’ve never been to Saigon. Generally speaking, in SE Asia, it’s Cantonese, various Fukien (Fujian) dialects of which Taiwanese is one, and Hakka. 99% chance that any group of Chinese in SE Asia are speaking one of these three. Of course, they could be speaking a specific Cantonese dialect as well.
China Guy, your info on Wu was interesting, especially the mention of word-initial /v/, which (IIRC) does not occur in Mandarin. You also mentioned Word-initial /zh/ in Wu. Isn’t it true, though, that /zh/, both a “flat” version of the sound and a retroflex version, occur in Mandarin?
Does Wu allow any word-final consonants besides /n, ng/ ?
Most Chinese dialects tend to have more tones, more consonants (like /v/, /b/), and consonantal endings - all stops, /m/, /n/ and /ng/.
In southern dialects native influence on basic vocabulary can be quite strong - ie readings for parts of the body, animals are based on the non-Chinese indigenous people.
I never studied any linguistics, so I’m lost on those sounds. As for Wu dialect, a common sound falls between pinyin si, zi, and sa sounds. Va is also a common sound, and the question “ma” is pronounced “va” for example. I used to tell my wife and other Shanghaiese that they sound like snakes.
Final sounds are approximate to those in Mandarin.
In Taiwan, the Taiwanese jokingly say that Cantonese sounds like gong, gong, gong. There are also a substantial Hakka minority in Taiwan.
bordelond you realize of course that there are a lot more dialects/seperate languages than just the three you mentioned in the OP. Nothing like studying mandarin for 20 years, then going somewhere in China where you can’t understand a word that is spoken. Usually, though, owing to radio and TV penetration, you can be understood on a basic level.
The information that you all have supplied is very interesting and helpful. Though I ignorantly forgot to which language group Chengdu-ese and Sichuan-ese belong to, I had to learn how to comprehend and, oftentimes speak both while studying in China. Of the noticeable differences that I could distinguish between “Sichuan-hua” and standard Mandarin dialect:
/h/ sound became /f/,
/sh/ became /s/ (for those chinese speakers, the words for “four” and “to be” are identical),
/l/ became /n/, (some people had no n/l differentiation)
/ch/ became /c/,
/c/ became /ch/ in most cases,
/zh/ became /z/,
the /e/ vowel sound became an /ei/ like sound with some consonants and an /ou/ like sound with others,
and the tones differed greatly: 3rd to 4th, 4th to 2nd or 3rd, 2nd to 1st … etc.
All of the letters in “/*/” are pinyin. I noticed a large differences within this dialect group, and found the Chengdu version, despite being my “home-dialect,” to be the most unintellegible. One of the most distinct qualities characteristic of this dialect, that native speakers informed me of, is the pronounciation of the /a/ vowel, which is low. stressed and often scratchy (maybe due to the amount of pollution and or smoking in that city).
As to bordelond’s origional question: “How might their differences with Mandarin best be described?” It’s comparable, to me, to the southern U.S.A. accent, more lazy and, unless you are somewhat trained what to listen for, unintelligable. That by no means says that linguistical diferences in English within the United Staes are directly comparable to those in China. Those living in different regions within China often cannot undrestand one another.
I spent close to two years in Sichuan (btw Sichuanese). Hated Chongqing with a passion, but Chengdu was my favorite staging ground for trips North and West. After a while I got to where I could understand the heavily Sichuanese accented Mandarin, but never the real Sichuanese. Words like american (meiguo) became rice ghost (mi gui). Tones were crazy too. In the most standard Chinese greeting of “Ni Hao”, the hao became a strong drawn out fourth tone
On the topic of ghosts, in Chengdu I just assumed that “gui” was the way they pronounced country, “guo.” I usually heard the locals call America “mei gui” but since they have no third, aka falling and rising, tone for “mei,” it sounded very weird the first few times I heard it; that is until I broke the code.
Most people, except those in Chengdu, thought that I was Chinese, occasionally Japanese, while I was in China. I have a very fair complexion, and some people would say “mo gui” as they walked passed me, or were nearby. It means something like “demon, devil, ghost, or temptress.” Although I am 99% positive that this was “slightly” derogatory, some Chinese people said that this was a compliment. There is a phrase, possibly an idiom that goes, “Mo gui shen cai” aka “The figure of a devil.” It is used to refer to a beautiful woman. In defence to my argument, I had two streaks of hot pink hair accenting my long, black hair for the last month I was there, exactly the time when I started noticing these types of comments. Is being called a demon-ghost good or bad?
I’m always really interested in the topic of Chinese dialects, but being an American, I only speak one language and have no frame of reference. So if a person who speaks Mandarin hears a person who speaks Cantonese, is the effect like that of me trying to watch Trainspotting, or is it more pronounced? (so to speak) And at what point does a “dialect” become a separate language, as far as linguists are concerned?
Also, what is spoken in Taiwan? Is it one of the mainland dialects, or its own variant?
Depends on the expression of the person calling you that, I guess. I’d be flattered. If I were a woman.
Much more pronounced. You can probably understand most of Trainspotting, right? Maybe a few segments are murky, but you can make most of it out. A Mandarin speaker with no experience with Cantonese won’t be able to understand anything. The pronunciation of most characters varies from somewhat different to completely different, and few words that are comprised of two or more characters will be close to each other in both dialects. Many key constructions- like asking questions- are different, along with a smattering of other words. And finally, there are massive regional differences in vocabulary choice, including many words exclusive to each dialect, especially Cantonese. So basically, aside from an occasional word here and there, it goes beyond communication difficulty and into mutual unintelligibility.
Oh, also, Mandarin speakers can’t even read stuff written in colloquial Cantonese. I’ve shown Cantonese-language comics to Mandarin speakers, and they can’t really understand it better than they could, say Japanese; that is, they see a lot of words they know, but not coherent sentences.
Well, I put “linguistic differences among Mandarin Chinese Hakka Wu” into Google and got a bunch of stuff, but I’m sorry, I don’t have a “25 words or less” answer.
Usually, though, owing to radio and TV penetration, you can be understood on a basic level.