Why do Computer Keyboards Suck?

[aceplace57]

I learned typing in high school on a real typewriter. In college I did 65 Words per minute on an electric and maybe 50 on a Manuel typewriter my roommate had.

Typists will tell you the best machines were the IBM Selectric. They had the golf ball you could change for different fonts. These typewriters had an amazing feel. Very comfortable to use. They were designed for professionals.

I got into computer programming in the mid 1980's. I've used practically every keyboard. Some are cheap pieces of shit that do nothing but injure your hands. The best are/were the IBM AT's. They had some bulk to them and a tactile feel. They're hard to find these days. There's only one place left selling them. I bought a couple last year at almost $100 each.

Yet, even the IBM keyboards are not as comfortable to use as a real typewriter. I've never tested better than 40 words on a minute on a computer keyboard. My error rate is higher because you don't have a professional feel to the keys.

Why hasn't there been a push for professional keyboards? Isn't Word Processing and data entry the most important tasks for clerical staff? Carpel Tunnel didn't become a major issue until computers were developed. Even typists in the 1940's, using manual typewriters, did not suffer as much from this injury.

[Ruminator]

Originally Posted by aceplace57

Why hasn't there been a push for professional keyboards? Isn't Word Processing and data entry the most important tasks for clerical staff?

Well, keyboards that use the ALPS keyswitch mechanism feel great under the feel great under the fingers ... but they are very loud and annoying. Plus, a keyboard using them costs about ~$100. The $15 keyboards use much cheaper membrane contacts.

As far as ergonomics for CTS, there are several cheap keyboards available now with split angled keyboards and wrist pads.

[aceplace57]

Funny thing is, the early computer terminals had decent keyboards. I spent the first six years of my career programming on a mainframe. The Televideo 950 and ADM-1 terminals were comfortable to use. I credit them for not having bad CTS today. The Dec VT220 keyboard was cheaper but still comfortable. Things changed a lot with PC keyboards.

It's ironic that professional typists were doing 80 to 90 words a minute on the IBM Selectric typewriters. Today, even the best typists aren't doing better than 60 words a minute on computer keyboards. It's rare to even find someone doing 50.

[groman]

Originally Posted by aceplace57

It's ironic that professional typists were doing 80 to 90 words a minute on the IBM Selectric typewriters. Today, even the best typists aren't doing better than 60 words a minute on computer keyboards. It's rare to even find someone doing 50.

Are you sure? I can sustain about 80WPM on almost any keyboard I use and I'm not even a typist.

[aceplace57]

I do computer support at a human resources office. We used to administer typing tests for applicants applying for secretarial positions. IIRC 40 with less than 5 errors was the minimum passing grade. We'd let them take the test again if they failed. We were very lenient. We were only testing for basic typing skills.

Most typists these days don't type error free. The backspace key has made it less important. But, I'd be surprised to see any typist on a computer match a typist on a IBM Selectric typewriter.

[groman]

Originally Posted by aceplace57

Most typists these days don't type error free. The backspace key has made it less important. But, I'd be surprised to see any typist on a computer match a typist on a IBM Selectric typewriter.

You can get a quality keyboard that's a lot like the Selectric over here.

[gotpasswords]

Originally Posted by aceplace57

Carpel Tunnel didn't become a major issue until computers were developed. Even typists in the 1940's, using manual typewriters, did not suffer as much from this injury.

That's because typists were doing more than just moving their fingertips. At the end of every page, they had to stop typing to remove one piece of paper, put it somewhere, get a fresh piece of paper and put it into the typewriter.

As for the typists in the 40s, they moved their hands even more - at the end of every line, they had to reach up and push the carriage back.

As for why computer keyboards are so universally lousy, it's because they're built to hit the lowest possible price point. If Dell can sell a basic desktop PC for $400 and include a keyboard and mouse, there's not much room for either of those to be any good.

[ReticulatingSplines]

I'm too young to have used old-school typewriters, but I actually feel that the options for typists has been expanding in recent years. The IBM Model M has been the gold standard for a long time, but mechanical switch boards are coming back into vogue. There are lots of great ones available, you should try the Das Keyboard or the tactile line from Deck.

[elmwood]

Originally Posted by groman

You can get a quality keyboard that's a lot like the Selectric over here.

Or, if you want one that's new and made in the USA, over here.

Personally, I've got a stash of Model Ms that I hope I can pass down to my children. For the more bargain-minded, you can find buckling spring Model Ms and the occasional mechanical switch Alps and Cherry keyboards at thrift stores. They'll need a lot of cleaning, but it's worth it.

Supposedly, the Japanese are very fussy about keyboards, and keyboard collecting is yet another one of the nation's oddball obsessions. The two times I eBayed Model M Spacesavers from the stash, they were purchased by Japanese buyers for what would seem like an astronomical price to most people. There's several Japanese keyboard fan sites I've come across, all with a very ... well, spergish level of documentation. Maybe some of the Japanophiles here can explain it.

[aceplace57]

The IBM Model M is what I bought last year. They're the best I've found.

Funny story from work. Back in the early 1990's we bought several hundred Zenith 486 pc's. They had good chunky keyboards similar to the IBM. When we upgraded to Pentiums we threw the new Dell keyboards in a storage closet and used the Zenith keyboards. When the AT plug changed to the mini plug, people bought adapters so they could continue using the Zenith keyboards. Fifteen years later, you'll still find a few people using those old keyboards. Unfortunately, they're finally wearing out.

Keyboards are like a good pair of shoes. Once you break them in and get a good fit, you never want to change.

[yabob]

Originally Posted by aceplace57

Funny thing is, the early computer terminals had decent keyboards. I spent the first six years of my career programming on a mainframe. The Televideo 950 and ADM-1 terminals were comfortable to use. I credit them for not having bad CTS today. The Dec VT220 keyboard was cheaper but still comfortable. Things changed a lot with PC keyboards.

It's ironic that professional typists were doing 80 to 90 words a minute on the IBM Selectric typewriters. Today, even the best typists aren't doing better than 60 words a minute on computer keyboards. It's rare to even find someone doing 50.

However, if we go even earlier, you have teletype keyboards.

I actually learned to touch type decently in high school. My first experiences with FORTRAN on model 33 teletypes wrecked all that - partially because of the nature of the keyboard, partially because programming meant typing large numbers of odd characters and control keys that traditional typing techniques didn't account for.

[muttrox]

My WPM is significantly faster on a computer keyboard than a typewriter. So I'm skeptical of the OP - is there any research that speaks to typing speed on the different systems?

[Athena]

Originally Posted by aceplace57

It's ironic that professional typists were doing 80 to 90 words a minute on the IBM Selectric typewriters. Today, even the best typists aren't doing better than 60 words a minute on computer keyboards. It's rare to even find someone doing 50.

Where are you getting that data? It's wrong. I'm not a professional typist, but I can do 90-100 wpm on a computer keyboard. I just double checked that with an online typing test thing.

I've definitely used cheapo keyboards, and I prefer nice ones, but I've used selectrics and I don't think they're any real improvement over a decent computer keyboard. I've certainly never noticed a problem in typing speed.

Originally Posted by aceplace57

It's rare to even find someone doing 50.

Not in my experience. I'm a programmer; everyone I work with types all day. Even the hunt-and-peck people do 50 wpm. Those of us who can type easily do >90.

[Roland Orzabal]

Originally Posted by aceplace57

It's ironic that professional typists were doing 80 to 90 words a minute on the IBM Selectric typewriters. Today, even the best typists aren't doing better than 60 words a minute on computer keyboards. It's rare to even find someone doing 50.

I'm with groman; I'd like to see a cite for this if you wouldn't mind. I'm not a professional typist, nor do I consider myself exceptionally speedy among my peers (programmers and the like), but I was clocked at 85 wpm by a staffing agency three years ago. This online test, while probably not calibrated to any particular set of standards, scored me at 91 wpm (with one error) just a moment ago.

Is there perhaps an alternate WPM calculation algorithm that I'm unfamiliar with?

[aceplace57]

I'd be curious to find out if any speed studies have been done too. My observations are based on my own personal experience and speaking to friends. It would be interesting to have professional stenographers do a side by side speed test.

I have seen modern typewriters that have memory buffers. The typist could correct errors before it printed. It looked like a IBM Selectric typewriter. It even had a RS-232 comm port and could be used as a terminal.

[aceplace57]

My speed estimates may be a little low. It's been over 40 years since companies had typing pools making copies of documents. Those ladies were super fast. They had to be. I'm pretty sure even they didn't do better than 110 error free. I was just a kid then. I had several aunts that did corporate work.

[Superfluous Parentheses]

Originally Posted by aceplace57

Why hasn't there been a push for professional keyboards? Isn't Word Processing and data entry the most important tasks for clerical staff? Carpel Tunnel didn't become a major issue until computers were developed. Even typists in the 1940's, using manual typewriters, did not suffer as much from this injury.

Good keyboards are relatively expensive to make. By the way, those IBM AT keyboards are still being manufactured (in Kentucky) by Unicomp (look for the models with Buckling Spring keyswitches). New price: about $70 - which seems to be the about the minimum price you'll have to pay for a new quality keyboard. Note that the original IBM Model M keyboards sold for over $250 when they were first produced!

The most expensive part of good keyboards are the key switches. As far as I can see all the decent ones are patented and expensive (like the Cherry switches) or just inherently expensive to make (like the buckling spring or older IBM mechanisms).

Some of the new keyboards that are supposedly good are the ones made by Topre, the Happy Hacking Pro series (which also has Topre switches) and a bunch of keyboards that use various Cherry switches like the ones made by Filco. Be prepared to pay more than for a new Unicomp board, though.

Much of the info I got from Geekhack a message board devoted to keyboard fans. Yes really. Lots of info on old and new quality (and crap) keyboards.

[Athena]

Originally Posted by Roland Orzabal

This online test, while probably not calibrated to any particular set of standards, scored me at 91 wpm (with one error) just a moment ago.

Going purely for speed, I got 101 wpm from that test. That's about what I expected; I sit in front of a keyboard all day, I can type pretty darn fast.

[AHunter3]

I'm a pretty reliable 70-75 WPM (standard typing test, unfamiliar keyboard etc).

I use one of these, attached via an iMate USB to ADB adapter, and although I can't sustain it I exceed 120 WPM in bursts (and when I fall behind that it's my error rate not the limitation of the keyboard).

I have 3 more of those in the basement and periodically snag a few more from eBay. Even used and ancient, they can run you more than $60 per, but they're well worth it.

[engineer_comp_geek]

Old typewriters are different than computer keyboards, and require a different typing style. I can see how someone trained on an old typewriter would think that most modern keyboards suck. By the same token, people who learn on a modern keyboard are probably going to think that old typewriters suck. I know I personally do. I can type a hell of a lot faster on a computer keyboard than I can on one of those IBM Selectrics.

Originally Posted by aceplace57

It's ironic that professional typists were doing 80 to 90 words a minute on the IBM Selectric typewriters. Today, even the best typists aren't doing better than 60 words a minute on computer keyboards. It's rare to even find someone doing 50.

Attitudes and training have changed significantly over the years. When I went to high school, girls spent countless hours in typing classes pounding away on those old IBM selectrics, because back then guys did the real jobs and girls were expected to become secretaries. We don't have that attitude today. It's therefore not that surprising that the labor pool of skilled typists isn't what it used to be.

I personally type about 70 to 80 wpm. One of my former secretaries commented that I was amazingly fast considering how wrong I did it.

[Markxxx]

Could it be just a matter of use? I learned to type on a manual typewriter in school and averaged 55wpm

Later I switched to an electric typewriter and shot up to about 70wpm

But after years of use on an electric typewriter I could never get used to the manual one again, and when I had to use a manual typewriter I fell way back down again.

On my computer I am about 50wpm. The touch of the computer keyboard is much lighter than that of a electric

Wireless keyboards are all but usless for anyone over 40wpm. It seems the speed of 40wpm is too fast for the wireless mechanism to cope.

[Lemur866]

Where are you going to find a "professional typist" nowadays? The closest you'll come are transcriptionists. If you want a super-fast transcriptionist you'll have to pay more than for an $8/hour administrative assistant.

[Jormungandr]

I wouldn't be surprised if I get carpal tunnel. When I type on a keyboard, I just move my fingers and wrists with my arms at an angle / \. If I were to take out my huge IBM typewriter (I can't remember what model right now) I would have to move my fingers, forearms and shoulders not to type but to roll the paper forward, etc. There's just more action involved.

[aceplace57]

Programming probably wrecked my typing skills too. Even in COBOL, you're not typing complete sentences and paragraphs. I enter short stuff, like - Move Zeroes to WS-Rec-Cnt. That's a lot different than compound sentences.

Same is true of my ten key adding machine skills. I used to be be very quick and accurate. I don't bother using the touch method with a computer num pad. My hand doesn't fit correctly. Hit the numlock by accident, and you're screwed. It's easier for me to look when I use the number pad. I have seen ladies at work do it by touch.

QUOTE=yabob;12040988]However, if we go even earlier, you have teletype keyboards.

I actually learned to touch type decently in high school. My first experiences with FORTRAN on model 33 teletypes wrecked all that - partially because of the nature of the keyboard, partially because programming meant typing large numbers of odd characters and control keys that traditional typing techniques didn't account for.[/QUOTE]

[billfish678]

Originally Posted by gotpasswords

.

As for why computer keyboards are so universally lousy, it's because they're built to hit the lowest possible price point. If Dell can sell a basic desktop PC for $400 and include a keyboard and mouse, there's not much room for either of those to be any good.

In economic theory, you can buy anything from the cheapest piece of crap to the bestest thing ever built and anything inbetween depending on what you want to spend.

My life experience has been that once someone gets good at making something dirt cheap but workable, it drives most of the others outa business for the most part.

I call it the Walmartization of America.

[Jormungandr]

I just remember this. On the SyFy channel show, "Warehouse 13," one of the characters using a typewriter instead of a keyboard to type on the computer. Do such typewriter keyboards exist outside of the prop room?

[Superfluous Parentheses]

Originally Posted by Jormungandr

I just remember this. On the SyFy channel show, "Warehouse 13," one of the characters using a typewriter instead of a keyboard to type on the computer. Do such typewriter keyboards exist outside of the prop room?

That's actually a heavily modified IBM Model M, the same keyboard the OP probably means by "IBM AT". I think this is the site of the guy who makes those mods

[Superfluous Parentheses]

Actually, looking at the closeups of that keyboard it appears not to be an IBM but some other mechanical switch board. Probably Cherry keys.

Yeah, the FAQ sais he uses cherry-based keyboards. I did find an IBM-based mod.

[Stealth Potato]

Originally Posted by Roland Orzabal

This online test, while probably not calibrated to any particular set of standards, scored me at 91 wpm (with one error) just a moment ago.

I got 98 wpm with no errors, on a Razer Lycosa keyboard.

I was slightly surprised, since it's been years since I tested my typing speed, and I've never had much reason to shoot for high WPM counts anyway. I do a lot of programming, and quite aside from the fact that punctuation and whitespace tend to dominate, it's the thinking part that takes the time, so there's not much need for fingers that can fly across the keys. Even when I'm writing other things -- emails, message board posts, technical documents, fiction -- I usually spend more time thinking than typing. Bursts of rapid output occur, but are brief.

I've never been trained as a typist, either, and I'm pretty sure I'm doing it completely wrong. (Home row? What's that? )

[Terry Kennedy]

Originally Posted by groman

You can get a quality keyboard that's a lot like the Selectric over here.

That looks more like an old Northgate keyboard.

Here is a real Selectric-style keyboard that I designed many years ago. I had a dozen or so prototypes run off by Micro Switch.

It has the same elevation, key feel and layout (with an additional top row for computer-specific keys) as the Selectric. The Shift Lock key latches down just like the Selectric, and either Shift key releases it. Don't ask what it cost, even in 1979.

[xash]

Originally Posted by ReticulatingSplines

There are lots of great ones available, you should try the Das Keyboard or the tactile line from Deck.

For those who've never seen it, here is Das Keyboard, the ultimate geek keyboard:

http://www.daskeyboard.com/

[Ají de Gallina]

The problem with "the good" keyboards is noise.

[Hunter Hawk]

Also worth looking into is the Avant Stellar. It's the reincarnation of the Northgate.

[Gary Robson]

Originally Posted by aceplace57

Today, even the best typists aren't doing better than 60 words a minute on computer keyboards. It's rare to even find someone doing 50.

Using the Mavis Bacon Typing Tutor, I tested at 95 wpm and my wife tested at 110 wpm. I was using a standard Apple keyboard and she was using whatever came with her Dell.

On her steno keyboard, she's tested at over 250 wpm, but that's different

[EvilTOJ]

I learned to type on Apple IIe's back in the day, and I hated those keyboards. I also typed on my mom's manual typewriter back then too, and I was always the slowest typist on it. Personally I type the fastest on the low rise keyboards like what you'd find on a laptop. I like how quiet they are too. Those IBM AT keyboards are a crime against nature with their constant ping-ping-ping gha!

Minor threadjack; Does anyone know of a robust low rise keyboard that can take a lot of abuse? I seem to kill keyboards.

[Superfluous Parentheses]

Originally Posted by xash

For those who've never seen it, here is Das Keyboard, the ultimate geek keyboard:

http://www.daskeyboard.com/

Nah, this is the ultimate geek keyboard.

[tim314]

Originally Posted by aceplace57

It's ironic that professional typists were doing 80 to 90 words a minute on the IBM Selectric typewriters. Today, even the best typists aren't doing better than 60 words a minute on computer keyboards. It's rare to even find someone doing 50.

That can't possibly be true. I just took this typing test and got 72 words per minute with zero mistakes, typing on my crappy laptop keyboard. I'm sure I could have done over 80 if I hadn't backspaced a few times to correct typos.

I'm not a professional typist, although I do spend all my day working on a computer.

[Animastryfe]

Originally Posted by aceplace57

Today, even the best typists aren't doing better than 60 words a minute on computer keyboards. It's rare to even find someone doing 50.

Most of my highschool friends and college friends who do non-trivial amounts of typing can all go over 60.

[crowmanyclouds]

[slight hijack] Anyone know of an online typing speed test that doesn't require you to copy something? [/slight hijack]

CMC fnord!

[Rigamarole]

Originally Posted by Lemur866

Where are you going to find a "professional typist" nowadays? The closest you'll come are transcriptionists. If you want a super-fast transcriptionist you'll have to pay more than for an $8/hour administrative assistant.

Oh yeah, court reporters / live closed-captioners are specially trained and don't even use normal keyboards. I've seen the things, they have fewer keys that cluster several commonly used letters together. It's pretty intense stuff.

[MsWhatsit]

I just took the typing test linked up-thread and scored 122 wpm, no errors. On a crummy little laptop keyboard. I can type way faster on a little laptop keyboard than I can on one of those big whonking electric typewriters. The laptop keyboard requires less effort to press each key, which increases my speed. Also probably increases my risk of carpal tunnel, but them's the breaks, kid.

[Uncertain]

Mine blows. I think there's a DIP switch inside that changes it.

[elmwood]

Originally Posted by groman

I can sustain about 80WPM on almost any keyboard I use and I'm not even a typist.

Originally Posted by Athena

I'm not a professional typist, but I can do 90-100 wpm on a computer keyboard.

Originally Posted by Roland Orzabal

I'm not a professional typist, nor do I consider myself exceptionally speedy among my peers (programmers and the like), but I was clocked at 85 wpm by a staffing agency three years ago. This online test, while probably not calibrated to any particular set of standards, scored me at 91 wpm (with one error) just a moment ago.

Originally Posted by Athena

Going purely for speed, I got 101 wpm from that test.

Originally Posted by AHunter3

I'm a pretty reliable 70-75 WPM (standard typing test, unfamiliar keyboard etc).

I use one of these, attached via an iMate USB to ADB adapter, and although I can't sustain it I exceed 120 WPM in bursts (and when I fall behind that it's my error rate not the limitation of the keyboard).

Originally Posted by engineer_comp_geek

I personally type about 70 to 80 wpm. One of my former secretaries commented that I was amazingly fast considering how wrong I did it.

Originally Posted by Stealth Potato

I got 98 wpm with no errors, on a Razer Lycosa keyboard.

Originally Posted by Gary "Wombat" Robson

Using the Mavis Bacon Typing Tutor, I tested at 95 wpm and my wife tested at 110 wpm.

Originally Posted by tim314

I just took this typing test and got 72 words per minute with zero mistakes, typing on my crappy laptop keyboard. I'm sure I could have done over 80 if I hadn't backspaced a few times to correct typos.

Originally Posted by MsWhatsit

I just took the typing test linked up-thread and scored 122 wpm, no errors.

Wow ... I can type 10 inches ... uh, I mean type an IQ of 155 ... uhh, what?