QWERTY vs Dvorak... again

Cecil's Columns/Staff Reports
1

I have been lately interested in ergonomic setups for computer jobs, and one of the points usually adressed is QWERTY vs. Dvorak keyboards.
While researching that, I found Cecil’s column on the subject, which echoes what I had already read in some other places.
But, alas, I just found something “new” (dated in fact 1999) - pro-Dvorak this time.

I’d say that this counters nicely the points put forward in the typically cited study against Dvorak (the one that made Cecil disregard usefulness of Dvorak’s keyboard). But the real kicker for me was the simple “you can test it too” page:

In it, you can see how optimal key placement for common words happens between 2 to +10 times more in Dvorak than in QWERTY. (such a simple test, I wonder how I didn’t even try it myself instead of so much reading and pondering!)

That did it for me; I will have to fork some time to try Dvorak myself.
Anyway: anyone cares to weight in?

2

As a guest you can’t search and search is down anyway. But as it turns out the author of that page turned up here a couple of months ago and posted this. I found it again by searching on BoardReader, by the way.

3

Heh… thanks for pointing that out. I tried hard to use some search (even google’s “site:”), but could not make anything work. Didn’t know BoardReader, will have to try it. (don’t do guests come often and revive dead topics because of the lack of searching?)

Well, anyway, I see I can rest my case. Thanks again!

4

<totally off-topic>

Mijail, out of interest, how did your name come about? Is it a real forname?

My name is something I heard on a Japanese video game. I use it because to me, it’s a “nonsense word” that’s almost always a free user name for me to use on any website.

I later learned though that “Mijin” is actually a Japanese girl’s name, which is not my gender. Thankfully I haven’t been hit on by any Japanese guys yet :slight_smile:

5

Yes, real name. Typically russian, as in Mijail Sholojov and Mijail Gorbachev.
(but no, I am not russian ;P)

6

[QUOTE=Mijail]
Yes, real name. Typically russian, as in Mijail Sholojov and Mijail Gorbachev.
(but no, I am not russian ;P)
[/QUOTE]
So, it’s another way to romanize what’s usually rendered as Mikhail?

(My username, BTW, is taken from August Derleth, who collaborated with H.P. Lovecraft on the Mythos and continued it in his own fashion. I’m a guy, in case you’re wondering.)

7

Dvorak is just another evolutionary dead end, which should go with Qwerty into the dustbin.
Simple alphabetic arrangements work fine.
The few speed typists left in the world are as relevant to what everyone else needs as court stenographers.

8

[QUOTE=micro-dust]
Dvorak is just another evolutionary dead end, which should go with Qwerty into the dustbin.
Simple alphabetic arrangements work fine.
The few speed typists left in the world are as relevant to what everyone else needs as court stenographers.
[/QUOTE]

Sounds like someone who doesn’t know how to touch type…

I think touch typing is the only way to type, and certainly NOT something that should be discarded. Until we manage to get computers to read our minds, I think typing is the best way to go. I’m not saying that everyone needs to type super-quickly, but the point is that it’s not very hard to teach, and I learned it in 8th grade and never looked back.
A pure alphabetical layout seems superior to QWERTY but the problem is that we already have a layout which everyone has already learned to touch type on. I feel I’m pretty qualified to say because I used to know Dvorak, and used it exclusively for a year or so. I can definitely tell you the difference. It seemed to be a lot less straining on the hands as well. But I had to switch back because I was unable to remember both QWERTY and Dvorak at the same time and given the amount of time I was spending on computers other than my own, I found it counter-productive. I might not have been a faster typist with Dvorak, but I sure did like the comfort involved.

When I was getting into it, it was said that some people could switch between Dvorak and QWERTY as if it were a foreign language. I never could, and forgot QWERTY while I knew Dvorak. I later had to switch back, where I forgot Dvorak. Today I wouldn’t know the first key. Just so you know, you might lose your QWERTY ability, so make sure that you won’t need to do much typing on other computers.

Another big problem is the change in auxiliary keys. Maybe you can’t change your keyboard keys around (some ergonomic keyboards) so you’ll essentially have to guess when it comes to the non-alphabetic keys. This is difficult if you’re doing shell commands etc.

9

For what it’s worth, people who cannot type at all do just as well on QWERTY as they do on alphabetic.

As far as I know, no advanced typing or typesetting equipment has ever been alphabetical. Not typewriters, not Linotypes, not even California cases.

10

Sorry to disappoint, but I’ve touch typed since I was ten. My mother was a secretary with a home machine and taught me with special all-black cap covers so you couldn’t peek. Then I got timed typing in grade 10 and worked for years in data entry at 60 wpm.
Still think qwerty is a crock that would not be missed after a week.
The reason is that I did learn Dvorak in about a week for a temp job that lasted 6 months.
Every other typist got the hang of it easily as well.
But that too is nothing special. And it certainly never lived up to its hype.
If there is a “perfect” system, it’s still to be found.

But more important, nobody does that much typing any more. The typing pools that were in every large firm are all decades gone. Data entry is fading fast as well, but it’s even less dependent on keyboard layout, being mostly numbers, tables, lookups, …

The thing is that qwerty and Dvorak are about as important as whether we teach kids original Morse code or International code, i.e., not important at all.

Like finding square roots with pencil and paper, or the slide rule skills that replaced that, typewriter key layout is not worth spending time on or teaching anyone anymore. IMHE

11

Of course typing pools have disappeared: instead of writing out memos longhand and then getting a secretary to redo your work, management gave you a super-typewriter at your own desk.

P.S. I use Dvorak. Cuts down on wrist problems since I write for a living. If I was forced to use an alphabetic layout I’d probably be in agony in a month.

12

My Mac lets me switch to Dvorak any time I want, and the keyboard has removable caps so I can switch those to the Dvorak configuration. I don’t see any reason why people need to use the same layout, why anyone has to learn Qwerty just because other people already use it.

I haven’t tried Dvorak though. I’ve learned Qwerty just by casually using it over many years, so I’d worry that it would take years more to really learn Dvorak.

13

FTR, I tried using Dvorak about 5-10 years ago. It’s nice for ergonomic purposes, but I never achieved the speed I’m used to in QWERTY (120+). I’m made to understand that a Dvorak user can blow past the speeds possible in QWERTY, but QWERTY is just too well burned into my brain to get better performance in anything else.

14

[QUOTE=Derleth]
So, it’s another way to romanize what’s usually rendered as Mikhail?

(My username, BTW, is taken from August Derleth, who collaborated with H.P. Lovecraft on the Mythos and continued it in his own fashion. I’m a guy, in case you’re wondering.)
[/QUOTE]

Yes, you could say that. Anyway, I don’t know which one is “the” (?) proper way to romanize it; looks like english speaking countries write Mikhail, and spanish speaking countries write Mijail… and I think I have seen some other variations.

15

[QUOTE=micro-dust]

Still think qwerty is a crock that would not be missed after a week.
The reason is that I did learn Dvorak in about a week for a temp job that lasted 6 months.
Every other typist got the hang of it easily as well.
But that too is nothing special. And it certainly never lived up to its hype.
If there is a “perfect” system, it’s still to be found.

[/QUOTE]

Perhaps not perfect (you know, what could claim to be perfect?, yadda yadda), but… if it is sufficiently better, is relatively easy to put into practice, is free, and is more ergonomic… then why not?

[QUOTE=micro-dust]

But more important, nobody does that much typing any more. The typing pools that were in every large firm are all decades gone. Data entry is fading fast as well, but it’s even less dependent on keyboard layout, being mostly numbers, tables, lookups,
[/QUOTE]

I, and lots of other fellow computer users, spend daily a nasty amount of hours in front of keyboards. And I like to properly master my tools. (you surely aren’t suggesting that I should be hunt-and-pecking keys, are you?)

(In fact, the rare times when I find a professional computer user who starts hunt-and-pecking, I take that as some kind of … say… diffuse early warning).

[QUOTE=micro-dust]

The thing is that qwerty and Dvorak are about as important as whether we teach kids original Morse code or International code, i.e., not important at all.

[/QUOTE]

If kids would be using telegraphs, yes, I sure think they should learn Morse code.
They will be using keyboards, so yes, I sure think they should learn to use them properly. To be productive, to avoid problems with the keyboard, and to avoid problems with their hands.

16

In my experience, Dvorak works great… in theory. (Just like communism?)

When I tried to teach it to myself and use it, I either didn’t have the patience to stick it out, or my QWERTY habits were too ingrained. As a developer and hobby writer, (not to mention just as an internet user,) I’m interested in typing better, but my QWERTY skills are good enough at this point.

17

[QUOTE=chrisk]
In my experience, Dvorak works great… in theory. (Just like communism?)

When I tried to teach it to myself and use it, I either didn’t have the patience to stick it out, or my QWERTY habits were too ingrained.
[/QUOTE]

Erm… didn’t you just disqualify yourself there?
From what I have gathered, one should expect about a week of abysmal speed while learning, to finally reach about-QWERTY speed. I also expect that week to be of commited learning.

The things that keep me uneasy are that I should keep my QWERTY proficiency, as I should be able to use other people’s computers; that keyboard shortcuts might change, be obtuse or whatnot with the different layout; and that there are a number of variants of Dvorak layouts (for programmers, for example). Grmpf…

18

I used Dvorak for months and still had abysmal (by my standards) speed the entire time. I don’t remember my exact WPM from that time, but it was lower than I was particularly happy with.

You will.

19

Dvorak may indeed be faster for some users. But still, it’s based upon a lie (that the QWERTY keyboard as invented to slow typists down).

20

The Dvorak keyboard is no more based on that idea than cursive is based on a UL that print was invented to slow writers down. It might be true that some people switch to Dvorak because they believe that, but the simple fact is that Dvorak is made with maximum efficiency and minimum strain in mind and QWERTY isn’t.