Where are all the gay people?

Great Debates
1

Tonight I was engaged in one of my favourite geek pursuits, surfing the net for Japanese animation sites. And, strangely enough, there were some fans out there who seemed desperate to deny that Nagisa Kaoru, a character who tells another boy he’s in love with him and eventually dies for him, is queer.

It’s far from the first time I’ve seen this: heterosexual people, who are otherwise quite accepting of gays and lesbians and gay rights, falling over their feet to deny that famous people and beloved fictional characters could be anything than 100% heterosexual.

When I was in grade 11, I had to write a biography of Michelangelo. All several biographies I used “neglected” to mention his long-term obsession with a man named Tommaso di Cavilieri. Most of the biographies I’ve read of Byron quite happily discuss his affair with his sister, but ignore his relationships with men. Homosexuality also disappears from descriptions of the lives of Walt Witman, Herman Melville, and countless other authors.

Is this just ignorance? Homophobia? Where do we get our belief that famous people we like and favourite characters could not possibly be gay? Is it just me, or is “homosexual” still one of those labels we attach to the villains of history? Why is it easier for so many people to believe Hitler was gay that to believe Michelangelo or Leonardo da Vinci was?

Historians are naturally cautious about everything. But if you suggest President Roosevelt was sleeping around on his wife, you get answers like “maybe,” “probably,” or “unlikely.” Suggest Eleanor Roosevelt was sleeping with Lorena Hickok, most people search desperately for evidence that they were just good friends.

I’m worried about what this means. And as a gay men, I’m worried that society seems to be struggling to erase gays and lesbians from history. Anything anyone has to say on the subject interests me greatly.

2

Further to my colleague’s post, I’d like to add that I’ve often seen in bookstores this enormous history of the 20th century, entitled Century. This is a big book; it has its own carrying case and weighs more than any two of my dictionaries. Nevertheless, the only thing that gay people do in the whole book is get AIDS.

3

Something that I think that is part of it: to say that someone is homosexual is to say that they are, well, sexual. If you say Nagisa Kaoru had a homosexual attraction to another character, many people will just assume that you mean that he had sex with him. After all, no one cAn really know that they’re homosexual unless they’ve actually had sex with a MSS :rolleyes:. And in this society, people are reluctant to recognize people’s sexuality. I remember reading a book where a character, referring to Scarlett and Rhett, says something like “Well, we really don’t know what they were doing in that room alone. They could, I don’t know, have been playing Scrabble or something”.

4

That’s probably part of it, but it still doesn’t deal with the dichotomy in the treatment of suspected gay vs. suspected straight relationships, nor the utter omission of gay material from mainstream histories and biographies.

5

They’re following the straight people around, waitinf for them to drop the soap. :smiley:

6

Well, until rather recently people weren’t classified as gay or straight. It was known that some people performed homosexual acts, but this did not make the person a homosexual. Add to this that historians generally did not make much note of who people had sex with, just who they married or had public affairs with, and that can explain why you don’t see much mention of it.

7

I find it hilarious that American anime fans admire Japanese art without understanding the culture that produces it. Homosexuality has long been an important aspect of Japanese culture. In kabuki theater, where men played both male and female roles, the onnagata, actors specializing in female roles, were often played by beautiful boys who were the apprentices and homosexual lovers of older actors.
Homosexual love was, despite official disapproval from the Tokugawa shogunate, held to be the highest form of love, making a man to man bond between warriors as lovers. In 1687, Ihara Saikaku published his famous book, “Nanshoku Okagami” (“The Great Mirror of Manly Love”), which took the homosexual activities among the samurai as its theme. “Woman is a creature of absolutely no importance,” he wrote, “but sincere pederastic love is true love.”

As far as American society goes, ingrained homophobia and the Puritan cultural strain even among academics conspired to hide the homosexuality of famous people. Anyone who has read the “Calamus” section of Leaves of Grass must realize that Walt Whitman was a big ol’ queen, yet until the 1970s Whitman’s homosexuality was not mentioned.

Luckily, nowadays with the rise of so-called “queer studies” gay history is being reclaimed. There has even been a tendency to impute gay sexuality to folks long established to be hetero, like Jane Austen, Emily Dickinson, and Abraham Lincoln.

8

It’s because people don’t want to acknowledge the fact that the figures they identify with are gay. Because if you identify with someone and see that person as a role model, and that person is gay, then you must be gay too, right?

9

I’m interested to know your source on this. I don’t doubt you. I’d just like to read more on the subject because the subject fascinates me.

As for queer studies, I didn’t get much out of it. My professor was convinced that homosexuality – the act as well as label – was invented by psychoanalysts in the late 19th century. :confused:

I think he had some issues.

10

One thing to keep in mind: most historical figures are not universally beloved, they all have enemies. If all the writings and rumors that have ever been associated with any hostorical figures is to be taken as gospel, well…you can imagine.

IIRC, the stories about Michaelangelo can be traced to one source, an avowed enemy. And on the gripping hand, when I look at the statue of David, it does seem (to my utterly hetero sensibility)a very sensual, if not overtly erotic, work of art. What might he have done with Anna Nicole Smith? (I do love a nice set of troublemakers)

I mean, there’s Bugs Bunny, kissing boys on many occasions. And Pepe le Peu? It could all be a front, or maybe he’s just nearsighted.

But Abraham Lincoln? Somebody is working this way too hard!

11

An essay on the history of male homosexuality in Japan can be found here.

12

Coupla points that need to be made:

You need to remember that with rare exceptions, most gay people prior to about 1970 were closeted quite firmly. That a celebrity or historic figure might have had a homosexual liaison or even been gay might perhaps have been an open secret to those in the know at the time, but will sometimes not have been preserved.

Second, almost all of the twentieth century took the attitude that love between same-sex individuals was verboten, including platonic love. We are only now coming out of that repressive viewpoint. Over on the Pizza Parlor, JAB brought up David and Jonathan in a thread on homosexuality as sinful, and the fact that they were two men who loved each other and were not afraid to show it (which is spelled out in the Bible in First Samuel) was not offensive to anyone; what upset them was the imputation that they might have expresed it sexually. I rather thank that Honest Abe’s behavior, and quite probably Emily Dickinson’s as well, were this seeking of intimacy in a same-sex relationship rather than homosexuality. (It almost feels like I ought to throw in a George Costanza quote here ;))

I can speak to this in my own life. I’ve been happily married to the same woman for nearly 26 years now. And next to her, the great love of my life is a man who came to us as a 17-year-old runaway boy, rapidly became my closest friend and I his. There is nothing we would not do for one another, and that would include sexuality if either felt it important to pursue. But what makes him happy is a little redhead who grew up from being the cute little girl down the street into a wonderful wife and mother, at both of which she is very skilled. (Side note: she felt some jealousy at our intimate friendship for a couple of years, then was at our house and someone played Phil Collins’ “Hero.” At the line, “And the reason that she loved him was the reason we loved him too,” our eyes met. Tacit understanding dawned. And we’ve been each other’s strongest booster ever since.) Finding that love relationship has a lot to do with why I’ve been something of a gay rights advocate since: I’ve been there, so to speak, and I understand something of what gay people feel. But it also defines to me that snipping out neat categories and labeling pigeonholes with them that we put people into is not the proper course. Human experience is much more varied than that.

13

I have a somewhat visceral skeptical reaction whenever I hear that thus-and-such a figure from history was homosexual, simply because there are so many reasons to lie about it. In olden days, accusations of homosexuality were an easy way to smear anybody you didn’t like. There are innumerable collections of stories about the Knights Templar being homosexual, almost every one of which was invented by Philip IV as an excuse for murdering them and stealing all their money. Sure, there were probably some gay Templars, but the stories about them are not credible because of their biased source.

Today, reputable historians do not smear people with the charge of homosexuality, because homosexuality is increasingly accepted and tolerated (as it should be, IMO). However, there is still motive for modern historians to lie about homosexuality, because identity politics causes many groups to seek to “claim” this or that revered historical figure for their own group. The sillier factions of Afrocentrists are claiming that Babe Ruth and Ludwig van Beethoven were black, and while that is not the fault of the gay studies crowd, it illustrates the motive of “claiming” cultural icons and why these claims meet with skepticism. The same motive causes people to try to fit hated historical figures into some hated group; thus we have atheists trying to make Adolf Hitler a Christian, Protestants trying to make him a Catholic, Christians trying to make him an atheist, and, silliest of all, homophobes trying to make him gay. http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mhitlerchristian.html

In the Durants’ The Renaissance, written in the '50s, Will Durant says that Leonardo da Vinci was “unquestionably” homosexual. When I read something like that, I am much more inclined to believe it than I might be in other circumstances because (a) Will Durant liked Leonardo, and thus was not saying it in an attempt to smear him, and (b) Will Durant didn’t like homosexuality (he lived well before today’s gay rights movement, and I doubt it ever even occurred to him to question society’s sweeping condemnation of that orientation), and thus was not trying to “claim” him for the gay studies crowd.

All this is not to say that the gay studies crowd are wrong about Eleanor Roosevelt or Michelangelo being gay. One can be biased and still be absolutely right, and I have no damning evidence proving Ellie or Mike to be straight. I’m merely stating the reasons why I view “Menelik II was gay” more skeptically than “Menelik II was left-handed.”

14

I think it depends on the information at hand. For one thing, you have to study the evidence. Case in point: most people living at the turn of the century assumed that Rasputin was the lover of the Empress of Russia. She wrote him very affectionate, demonstative letters, he could do no wrong in her eyes-what else could there be? Well, no one knew about how her son was hemophiliac, and that Rasputin was the only one who seemed to be able to help the attacks.
They didn’t understand that she saw him as a holy man, a priest, her prophet, Christ on earth. He was her lover.
It’s also that many people in other countries are more demonstrative and physically affectionate with one another.
That’s not to say I care whether or not a person was gay or straight. Just that the EVIDENCE is studied carefully. Because even now, there are STILL some morons who think that Rasputin and Alexandra were lovers.

15

To reiterate a point that I believe has been made, or at least touched on, by several posters, I think the shoe may be on the other foot as regards to the OP. I’m no expert, but the several times that I’ve seen evidence laid out for the homosexuality of various historical figures it has been extremely speculative, based on supposition rather than hard facts, and often in apparent ignorance of cultural norms of different eras. Examples of this include Alexander Hamilton and Abraham Lincoln.

Also, the definition of homosexuality may have to be stretched a bit to accommodate some of these claims. Many of these historical figures were undoubtedly heterosexual in their lifestyles, but may be subject to speculation about whether they had at one point a single homosexual relationship.

This is not to say that all claims of homosexuality of historical figures can be dismissed. But when suggesting that historians are suppressing the “fact” of so-and-so being a homosexual one must first consider the strength of the evidence that he was indeed so.

16

Nothing against homosexuality, but what you are describing is more of a man-boy relationship, a form of pedophilia, which is still frowned on by the great majority of people.

Greek culture is often cited as being tolerant toward homosexuality, but the man-boy relationship was the most respected and coveted, especially where women were not around. Certainly not the relationships being most displayed today to put gays in a positive light.

17

I’m right here. Sheesh! What’s a guy gotta do to get noticed around here? :wink:

Esprix

18

Historical homosexuality being glossed over is certainly nothing new, particularly in schools. During my public education, I can recall not one reference of homosexuality in ancient cultures, and I particularly remember finding out a few years later that some ancient Greek love poems I remembered from class had actually had their gender references changed from their original male/male context. Lots on Caesar and Cleopatra. Not a peep of Hadrian and Antinous.

It’s always been a part of history, but you certainly won’t hear about it in US culture unless you specifically go looking for it. It -is- kind of disturbing, as it only fuels the ignorance of attitudes like “Being gay is a modern perversion!”, but there ain’t much you can do about it. There’s a lot of years of prejudice to wear away first.

19

This is a pretty old thread, but I was talking to Hamish about this, in Spoil Neon Genesis Evangelion for me and I tried to start a simular thread awhile ago, so let’s see if I can get any new input on the OP. But first, a very on topic link. http://kaworu.com/kaworu/

Just now, I was going through http://videos.shoujoai.com/vids/, an archive of fan made music videos of Lesbians of anime. Despite the mental image conjured of lesbians in the popular media, it’s all very sweet and innocent. As I watched the vids, I thought back to all the fanfiction I have browsed through that contained heterosexual pairings for various obviously homosexual characters. True, some of my favorite pairings are only subtext, but it others it is true. For example, I have come across author who try to fid a nice boy for Tomoyo, of Card Captor Sakura. This is due to the fact they don’t see an obvious pairing for her, and they are immune to my malleting them across the head with my Mallet of “They’re Gay.”

Sure, she’s didn’t wind up with Sakura, sure, she’s too young to date, period, sure, al those are true, but as CLAMP, the creatrixes made her, she’s a lesbian. Now, the fact that some can believe that a mistranslation to be shown on American TV is canon can be bad enough, given the number of episodes existing, and the likely hood of there not seeing any thing of the original, but I have nothing but contempt for those who claim that Shinji isn’t at least bi, considering the feelings he had for Kaworu. After all, he was only in one episode, and the subtitling doesn’t make it that unclear.

Oh, and I have a magazine showing keychain toys of NGE characters, one set of which has the girls of NGE holding out boxes of chocolates, and a starry eyed Shinji accepting. But wait, what this? Why, it’s a Kaworu keychain, right next to the girls, handing out a box as well, in the exact same picture.
Yeah, it really is that bad. Real examples please? (laguage too mild to go into pits

20

I had an intro to the above, which I thought I accidentaly deleted. I didn’t after all. Just for the sake of completeness, here it is:

I was talking to Hamish in Spoil Neon Genesis Evangelion for me and he mentioned starting this thread. I made a pretty badly done attempt to say something similar, so I will post my not quite onto post below, in the hopes that the thread starts again, much like I did with I have a pseudo-clone on the SDMB!
Now, before I begin, I want to plug kaworu.com, which, in addition to hosting a pretty nice journal, has a great compilation of information about Kaworu Nagisa, nee (whatever Shinji’s last name is.)