what many creationists think of science and the public education system

[Cyningablod]

The story of my metamorphosis from a Bible-believing youngster growing up in a fundamentalist-creationist home to a science-loving skeptical rationalist is long and tortuous (and torturous), and I won't repeat it here. But I do remember a very interesting aspect of that worldview that I'd like to describe here, for the morbid amusement of those who are interested in the science-fundamentalism culture war.

My parents, graduates of William Jennings BryanCollege in Dayton TN (my mother was also a former missionary kid)--that should tell you something right there--were also public school teachers, so I was exposed to a very unique set of perspectives on the question of science vs creationism and how it affects public education.

Many people wonder how it is that creationists can still think that evolution is foolishness, and that it doesn't belong in the public schools, when court case after court case has come down in favor of secular science education, and every public school system in the country adheres to largely mainstream science education standards.

Well, I have an answer for you.

The way a large number of creationists interpret all this, the way they make sense of the overwhelming legal and educational tide against them, is NOT to reason that, "Gee, maybe all these biology and education experts and government officials are right; maybe evolution IS good science, after all!"

Oh no no no. For that would mean the crumbling of their ideological edifice.

The way the majority of them interpret their astounding, perpetual, and overwhelming losses in the scholarly and legal forum is as follows:

"The world belongs to the devil."

I kid you not. From my own parents (teachers) to public school principals and administrators, preachers, apologists, activists, and right-wing politicians, although they won't say it publicly (at least not usually), this is seriously how many of them analyze their losses in the public forum. I have heard it literally dozens if not hundreds of time throughout my life.

Since some Bible passages describe the world as being utterly evil and under Satan's direct control (e.g., Ephesians 2:2, Ephesians 6:12, 1 John 5:19), creationists and fundamentalists believe that Satan himself is behind the pro-evolution science taught in American high schools, and literally pulled some sort of diabolical strings to get verdicts like we saw in Edwards vs. Aguilard and Kitzmiller et al vs. Dover ASB.

If that ain't creepy--and very revealing of the kind of mindset we're dealing with here--I don't know what is. It shows how, no matter what kind of legal, scientific, or logical evidence argues against their position, they will NEVER change their mind, because it's all a diabolical conspiracy. Literally.

[whiterabbit]

That saddens me. It doesn't surprise me, though, which saddens me even more.

[BigT]

I thought everyone already knew this, or I'd have told you.

Oddly enough, our science book was set up where evolution was its own separate section, and every year they always wound up "not having time" to discuss it in biology. Oddly enough, we DID discuss abiogenesis.

[River Hippie]

I grew up in rural Indiana. Doesn't surprise me at all. Surrounded by this world view.

[digs]

Originally Posted by River Hippie

Surrounded by this world view.

Ditto, but because I was raised by far-far-right-wingers. It's exactly the same "Yay, we're being persecuted. This proves that everyone else (who are against us) is evil!"

[Perciful]

Keep an open mind. We all don't get it but to me it is all connected. God, Science, Creation, Evolution. As humans we are afraid of what we don't understand. Instead of being afraid of what we don't understand we should question and study it and if you still can't figure it out that does not mean it does not exist or that it is evil. That is just fear. I'm glad I got all the angles growing up.

There are many things I don't get. I don't have the answer but someone does. Maybe not right at this moment but someday.

There are things I do get that others don't. I have been made fun of by people that don't understand me. I don't take it personally or think they are evil. I just wish I could explain it in words or in a painting or music. I'm not gifted in that way.

Check out this young child prodigy with an open mind. She has a keen mind to all things and a wonderful gift for expressing it. Amazing!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtI4P...eature=related

[Napier]

It's no good arguing against magic.

[Slithy Tove]

You "Christians" or as I grew up calling you "Protestants," are a bunch of Johnny-come-Latelys to Evilworld. My One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church holds with the doctrine of Original Sin. Basically, babies commit a sin worthy of eternal damnation just by being born. Then they only compound things by shitting their diapers and rubbing their gentials and stealing cookies, etc.

These babies were often born to people who were forced by birth-control prohibitions to have children they didn't want and were unprepared to love, making them excellent salesmen and women for this doctrine.

Don't like that? well, all you have to do is undergo our quaint induction ritual, and then each week bring an evenlope filled with money to our clubhouse. (No, not the Bada Bing, I mean St. Theresa's.)

Sometimes, when a deer is giving birth, a pack of wolves will gather round to wait. They'll eat the fawn and let her go to lay on another feast next year. That's not evil, it's just nature. But any world that allows for a 2,000 year old institution doing psychological cruelty to children for its own benefit has to be an evil world, so I'm with the Pope & the Fundies on ths one.

[Cuckoorex]

Verses like Colossians 2:8 don't help matters:
"See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ."

[Cyningablod]

Cuckoorex:

Uh-yup. I grew up hearing Col. 2:8 injected into the discussion, a lot, too.

[Cyningablod]

Originally Posted by BigT

I thought everyone already knew this, or I'd have told you.

Reason I posted it is, I've had a LOT of people who didn't grow up in the creationist womb the way I did, express shock/disbelief/disgust/etc. when I tell 'em this. A lot of secularly raised folks are genuinely unaware of how deep the sickness really is.

[Cyningablod]

Originally Posted by Slithy Tove

You "Christians" or as I grew up calling you "Protestants," are a bunch of Johnny-come-Latelys to Evilworld. My One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church holds with the doctrine of Original Sin. Basically, babies commit a sin worthy of eternal damnation just by being born. Then they only compound things by shitting their diapers and rubbing their gentials and stealing cookies, etc. [...]

ST: Protestants--'scuse me, "Evangelicals"--also hold to a doctrine of Original Sin. It's part and parcel of the this-is-the-devil's-world Weltanschauung. As I recall there's a verse somewhars that goes, "In sin my mother conceived me...". Verses like that are the reason both Catholics and "Evangelicals" hold to this view.

It makes it a shit-load easier to peddle someone your salvation cure-all, if you convince them that everybody on earth is in direst need of the stuff, just by dint of having been born.

[Perciful]

Originally Posted by Napier

It's no good arguing against magic.

It isn't magic. This girl is a human being born into an athiest home that has a God given gift. She is self taught and without reading the bible or attending church. I had her picture of Jesus on my screen saver and one day did some research and found out why I liked it so much. I learned a little bit about Akiana and then I just understood her.

God picked her just as he picked me. I don't have her wonderful talents but I do have God in me just the same. I got it at a very young age like she did. If you look at her work she has both God and the Universe as her subjects for her paintings. As a child I was filled with awe and wonder, I still am!

It takes becoming like a child to get it. It is so simple but we complicate it. God and science, creation and evolution are all good things for children to learn.

Akiana is going to try and save the world one painting at a time and she inspires me. She doesn't get into arguments, she gets up every day and paints for God. The world would be such a wonderful place if we could all do one small thing for the greater good of humanity.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jQlZv...eature=related

[Autolycus]

Originally Posted by Slithy Tove

But any world that allows for a 2,000 year old institution doing psychological cruelty to children for its own benefit has to be an evil world, so I'm with the Pope & the Fundies on ths one.

IMO evil requires consciousness, so to an atheist the world as a whole is neither good nor evil.

[Autolycus]

Originally Posted by Perciful

Akiana is going to try and save the world one painting at a time and she inspires me. She doesn't get into arguments, she gets up every day and paints for God. The world would be such a wonderful place if we could all do one small thing for the greater good of humanity.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jQlZv...eature=related

What specifically about her paintings lends her gift to Christianity. The only reason she's Christian is because she grew up in the western world. If she was born in Afghanistan, she'd be Muslim and painting pictures of Muhammad.

[Perciful]

Originally Posted by Autolycus

What specifically about her paintings lends her gift to Christianity. The only reason she's Christian is because she grew up in the western world. If she was born in Afghanistan, she'd be Muslim and painting pictures of Muhammad.

Nothing. As she says she doesn't go to any church or belong to any religious group. If we were all a bit like her the world would be a better place. Doing something for the greater good of all. She may paint a picture of Mohammad one day as she seems to paint many different subjects from all over the world and the universe.

[Miller]

Originally Posted by Cyningablod

It shows how, no matter what kind of legal, scientific, or logical evidence argues against their position, they will NEVER change their mind, because it's all a diabolical conspiracy. Literally.

You did.

[Cisco]

Originally Posted by Perciful

Keep an open mind. We all don't get it but to me it is all connected. God, Science, Creation, Evolution. As humans we are afraid of what we don't understand. Instead of being afraid of what we don't understand we should question and study it and if you still can't figure it out that does not mean it does not exist or that it is evil. That is just fear. I'm glad I got all the angles growing up.

There are many things I don't get. I don't have the answer but someone does. Maybe not right at this moment but someday.

There are things I do get that others don't. I have been made fun of by people that don't understand me. I don't take it personally or think they are evil. I just wish I could explain it in words or in a painting or music. I'm not gifted in that way.

Check out this young child prodigy with an open mind. She has a keen mind to all things and a wonderful gift for expressing it. Amazing!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtI4P...eature=related

All you have to hear to know that this is a con job is "this painting is worth thousands of dollars." Do you really think the creator and supreme ruler of the universe would pick this girl out, reveal to her an image of Jesus that just so happens to look exactly like the popular western depiction of him, and then have her paint it for thousands in profit? No. It's a shame, really, because the girl is obviously incredibly talented (if she's really the one doing the paintings), but this is a family of grifters.

[Illuminatiprimus]

Originally Posted by Autolycus

If she was born in Afghanistan, she'd be Muslim and painting pictures of Muhammad.

Nit pick - no she wouldn't as that would violate Islam's pretty strong anti-idolatry principles. Sheesh, don't you people watch South Park?

[Hypnagogic Jerk]

That depends on who you're asking. There's a long tradition of Islamic art depicting Muhammad. Here's a Persian example on Wikipedia.

[Cyningablod]

Originally Posted by Miller

You did.

Yeah, you have a point there, Miller. Maybe I should rephrase and say that, MOST of them will never have their minds changed by logic and evidence.

I was pretty much always a skeptic, though. I was the kid who argued with his Sunday school teacher, youth leader, parents, grandparents, etc., over some of the problematic aspects of the faith. Long before I had even left it.

So I don't know what that tell you, but there you go.

[Unauthorized Cinnamon]

I'm not surprised, but then, I indulge in recreational anger by listening to Christian(ist) radio. I have a feeling you would like Fred Clark, of Slacktivist fame. Check him out if you haven't. Here's a quote from his recent piece about a bible college firing a professor who dared posit that maybe they should look at the evidence and change their minds:

n other words, Milton and RTS can tolerate only views of creation that were concocted post-Darwin, in response to and in rejection of Darwin. And they cannot tolerate the views held by Reformed theologians in the centuries before or the more than a century since (Charles Hodge, B.B. Warfield and Asa Gray would not have been allowed to teach at RTS either, apparently).

Appreciate that the person most responsible for these people's interpretation of the book of Genesis is none other than Charles Darwin. This is not an honor the great scientist would have sought or accepted.

[emphasis added]

link to Slacktivist

[Nicolas Bourbaki]

Originally Posted by Cisco

All you have to hear to know that this is a con job is "this painting is worth thousands of dollars." Do you really think the creator and supreme ruler of the universe would pick this girl out, reveal to her an image of Jesus that just so happens to look exactly like the popular western depiction of him, and then have her paint it for thousands in profit? No. It's a shame, really, because the girl is obviously incredibly talented (if she's really the one doing the paintings), but this is a family of grifters.

Well, 5 minutes googling says the exact opposite. She says the model for that painting was a man who went to her church who she thought would make a good Jesus, and that most of the money from her paintings goes to AIDS charities. Of course, she could be lying, but there's no reason to believe so without evidence. As to your other point, there's a compressed time video of her working on a painting pretty much continuously.

[Cisco]

Originally Posted by Nicolas Bourbaki

Well, 5 minutes googling says the exact opposite. She says the model for that painting was a man who went to her church who she thought would make a good Jesus, and that most of the money from her paintings goes to AIDS charities. Of course, she could be lying, but there's no reason to believe so without evidence. As to your other point, there's a compressed time video of her working on a painting pretty much continuously.

Why would she need a model to paint something that God revealed to her? And she may have used him for the pose, but there's no denying that the result is a painting of a man who looks very much like the popular western depiction of Jesus.

[Ranchoth]

"We understand them just fine. Thanks to Cyningablod here...so since a deal can't be made, I guess things get real simple."

Where's my robot suit?

[Perciful]

Originally Posted by Cisco

All you have to hear to know that this is a con job is "this painting is worth thousands of dollars." Do you really think the creator and supreme ruler of the universe would pick this girl out, reveal to her an image of Jesus that just so happens to look exactly like the popular western depiction of him, and then have her paint it for thousands in profit? No. It's a shame, really, because the girl is obviously incredibly talented (if she's really the one doing the paintings), but this is a family of grifters.

What's a grifter?

[Perciful]

Originally Posted by Unauthorized Cinnamon

I'm not surprised, but then, I indulge in recreational anger by listening to Christian(ist) radio. I have a feeling you would like Fred Clark, of Slacktivist fame. Check him out if you haven't. Here's a quote from his recent piece about a bible college firing a professor who dared posit that maybe they should look at the evidence and change their minds: [emphasis added]

link to Slacktivist

I don't get it? It might be the way it was written or that I know nothing about bible college types? I don't like Christian radio so I don't know Fred Clark?

I learned about Charles Darwin, The Big Bang Theory, Genesis, Evolution and took each as it's own theory. I think it is good for children to get all the different angles.

[Unauthorized Cinnamon]

Originally Posted by Perciful

I don't get it? It might be the way it was written or that I know nothing about bible college types? I don't like Christian radio so I don't know Fred Clark?

I learned about Charles Darwin, The Big Bang Theory, Genesis, Evolution and took each as it's own theory. I think it is good for children to get all the different angles.

Fred Clark is a politically liberal evangelical Christian. He is perhaps most famous for a savage and erudite dissection of the Left Behind novels, which is ongoing. He is the polar opposite of Christian radio.

The quoted passage is from his discussion of creationists of the stripe mentioned in the OP. He is noting the irony that these "literal bible-believing Christians" are driven largely by Darwinism. They are much more interested in finding "evidence" for not-evolution than in reading the actual bible and appreciating it as it stands on its own.

As for your second comment, I am compelled to point out that Genesis isn't a theory. It's not even a hypothesis.

[Perciful]

Originally Posted by Unauthorized Cinnamon

Fred Clark is a politically liberal evangelical Christian. He is perhaps most famous for a savage and erudite dissection of the Left Behind novels, which is ongoing. He is the polar opposite of Christian radio.

The quoted passage is from his discussion of creationists of the stripe mentioned in the OP. He is noting the irony that these "literal bible-believing Christians" are driven largely by Darwinism. They are much more interested in finding "evidence" for not-evolution than in reading the actual bible and appreciating it as it stands on its own.

As for your second comment, I am compelled to point out that Genesis isn't a theory. It's not even a hypothesis.

Thanks, I have heard of The, "Left Behind" books. So Clark is a Liberal Evangelical Christian that does not Christian radio or the books.

I looked up "grifter" and it is a con artist. I hope that the parents are not using her for money. What makes me sad is if she reads this online she is going to be very heartbroken. So far there is no proof that is happening but as with everything else you are guilty till proven innocent. I didn't post the video so you could discredit her and call her a fake. I posted it because it because for this girl it inspired her Art.

[Miller]

Originally Posted by Perciful

I don't get it? It might be the way it was written or that I know nothing about bible college types? I don't like Christian radio so I don't know Fred Clark?

I learned about Charles Darwin, The Big Bang Theory, Genesis, Evolution and took each as it's own theory. I think it is good for children to get all the different angles.

That's not all the different angles. Here is a list of 57 different creation myths. If we're allowing Genesis into our science classrooms to "get all the angles," why are we only including Yahweh and the seven day creation? Why not Mbombo, the giant who vomited up the universe? Or that everything was hatched out of an egg? Or that the first people were released from a clam by a passing raven?

Genesis is just another in a very, very large line of creation myths, none more objectively truthful than the next. There's nothing special about the book of Genesis, that makes it distinct from all the other stories people have made up about where we come from. But when Genesis is taught in public schools, the government is effectively saying, "This belief, among all the world's beliefs, has validity to it. It's a fact, and can be taught as such in our schools, on the government's dime."

And that's a problem, because there's a law in this country that says the government can't do that. If you think that it should, you're going to have to amend the constitution to allow the government to endorse a religion. Which you may be able to do. But the problem with that is making sure the government endorses your religion. After all, the same law that say you can't teach Christian theology in science class is also the law that says you can't teach Muslim theology in science class.

[Perciful]

Originally Posted by Miller

That's not all the different angles. [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creation_myths"]
And that's a problem, because there's a law in this country that says the government can't do that. If you think that it should, you're going to have to amend the constitution to allow the government to endorse a religion. Which you may be able to do. But the problem with that is making sure the government endorses your religion. After all, the same law that say you can't teach Christian theology in science class is also the law that says you can't teach Muslim theology in science class.

They should not be teaching anything in public schools that is against the law or constitution. Science is a slippery slope because a lot of it is not based on facts.

We are really throwing out the baby with the bath water on this.

http://www.answersingenesis.org/arti...ught-in-school

[Kyla]

Originally Posted by Perciful

Science is a slippery slope because a lot of it is not based on facts.

Could you please provide an example of science that isn't based on facts?

[Anne Neville]

I'm not surprised that creationists find ways to believe what they want to believe. It's a very human thing to do.

The idea that "the world belongs to the devil" isn't new, either.

Originally Posted by Perciful

What's a grifter?

A con artist.

[Nicolas Bourbaki]

Originally Posted by Perciful

They should not be teaching anything in public schools that is against the law or constitution. Science is a slippery slope because a lot of it is not based on facts.

We are really throwing out the baby with the bath water on this.

http://www.answersingenesis.org/arti...ught-in-school

Yes, clearly the people who assume outright, sans justification, that the answers are in Genesis are a well-reasoned unbiased source. If they say godless scientists want to turn our sons gay and give all our daughters abortions, clearly we should believe them without thinking it through.

Originally Posted by www.answersingenesis.org

Remember, the Bible does not teach there is neutrality—one is either “for” Christ or “against” Christ (Luke 11:23).

Originally Posted by i swear im not making this shit up read it yourself

Claim #2: Dinosaurs evolved.
This claim is full of assumptions about the past, which directly contradict Scripture. According to the Bible, all land animals were created on the same day as the first humans, and so they shared the same world only a few thousand years ago.

Originally Posted by these are their ACTUAL motherfuckin arguments

Claim #3: Birds evolved from reptiles.
These dates and events are stated as facts, when we know, according to God’s own eyewitness testimony in Genesis, that He created flying creatures before He created land animals.

Either you didn't read your own cite, or you are literally and without hyperbole mentally retarded.

[Marley23]

Originally Posted by Nicolas Bourbaki

Either you didn't read your own cite, or you are literally and without hyperbole mentally retarded.

Personal insults aren't allowed outside the Pit. This is a formal warning, so please don't do this again.

I'm moving this to Great Debates because of the tone of the debate and because one poster is essentially witnessing. But insults are not allowed regardless.

[Bryan Ekers]

Thought experiment for Perceival: I produce a bible that is identical in all respects to the New International edition, except that in my version of Genesis, creation took seven days and God rested on the eighth. I print up a few thousand copies and begin distributing them, spreading the "eighth-day" gospel.

If my bible is a less accurate description of creation than the New International, please prove it.

[Cyningablod]

Perciful:

By linking to Answers In Genesis (one of the largest and most famous "young earth" creationist organizations), you've forever tainted any credibility you might have otherwise had in this discussion.

I don't say that as an ad hom, circumstantial or otherwise. I'm NOT saying, "Your arguments fail because you linked to a poor source." I'm quite sure you--as an individual--are capable of admirably defending your own beliefs. But on this board, in this discussion, to be taken seriously by other Dopers (that's my key point, here), it's not a good idea to quote from the very ideological group whose bizarre anti-scientific dogma, prompted the OP in the first place.

Nicolas didn't express it well, but his incredulity at that citation is understandable.

[begbert2]

The thing that bugs me about these types is they're not consistent. If science is an evil conspiracy, why don't they declare that the images on televisions are glamours of the devil and shun them? That ovens channel the flames of hell? That mechanical advantage from levers comes from demons possessing you and granting you strength?

No, these lazy people don't bother to reject all science; they only do it where it's convenient. Lazy butts.

[Chronos]

I've seen worse than what the OP talks about. Consider, for instance, my father. His guiding principles go something like this:

1: Choose a course of action. This can be anything from deciding who to vote for, to deciding what maintenance to do on his house, to deciding what to have for dinner.
2: Some good things happen in his life. These good things are clearly God's doing, and are therefore evidence that he chose the right course of action, since God's helping him do His work.
3: Some bad things happen in his life. These bad things are clearly Satan's doing, and are therefore evidence that he chose the right course of action, since Satan's trying to put obstacles in his path.
4: Therefore, he can be absolutely certain that the decision he made was correct. Since this has always happened for every decision, however important or trivial, he's ever made in his life, it's therefore also clear that he's never been wrong about anything, however important or trivial, in his life.

[Cyningablod]

Chronos--

I'm very familiar with that system of thinking, too. Have seen it/heard it my entire life.

I am aggravated NO END by theists' penchant to let God off the hook when things go wrong, but then to turn around and praise him when things go right. It's bizarre.

It seems very much like a way of projecting God onto an existence that pretty strongly appears, through its random and apathetic disbursal of good and bad fortune, to be devoid of any supreme deity, at all.

[Perciful]

Originally Posted by Nicolas Bourbaki

Yes, clearly the people who assume outright, sans justification, that the answers are in Genesis are a well-reasoned unbiased source. If they say godless scientists want to turn our sons gay and give all our daughters abortions, clearly we should believe them without thinking it through.




Either you didn't read your own cite, or you are literally and without hyperbole mentally retarded.

I did read my cite and I agree with it. Obviously you don't share my enthusiasm. This topic is a bunch of baloney put forth by the op to get people going against each other.

What about the OP's trying to incite trouble by quoting what her parents would never say in public.? The world belongs to the devil? Come on, I have never in my life heard that in a classroom!

I am not mentally retarded. That is a very mean thing to say to me. You obviously care about hyperbole more then couth! So because I link a Genesis site I am mentally retarded? Because I have faith and an open mind you can't handle it. I said I studied all the types of creationism in school and I liked the variety. We still can't prove any of them but someday we may.

I wish we could meet half way on this. I am not for violating our constitution and if it is such a big deal why don't they remove Genesis from public school? Most Christians send their kids to private school anyway. If you are so dead set against Genesis call your congressman and get it removed from any curriculum in public schools. I am a Christian so if you think your going to change my mind on this subject you are wasting your time and mine.

I think Genesis teaches children a lot more about faith and hope then exploding rocks in space.

I kindly ask the moderator to move this thread to the pit where it belongs. I have never seen anyone on SD call anyone mentally retarded. The Pit is where people like you need to go with your hatred and mean words.

[Marley23]

Originally Posted by Perciful

I am not for violating our constitution and if it is such a big deal why don't they remove Genesis from public school?

Genesis usually isn't taught in public schools.

Most Christians send their kids to private school anyway.

That's not even close to true.

[Perciful]

Originally Posted by Cyningablod

Perciful:

By linking to Answers In Genesis (one of the largest and most famous "young earth" creationist organizations), you've forever tainted any credibility you might have otherwise had in this discussion.

I don't say that as an ad hom, circumstantial or otherwise. I'm NOT saying, "Your arguments fail because you linked to a poor source." I'm quite sure you--as an individual--are capable of admirably defending your own beliefs. But on this board, in this discussion, to be taken seriously by other Dopers (that's my key point, here), it's not a good idea to quote from the very ideological group whose bizarre anti-scientific dogma, prompted the OP in the first place.

Nicolas didn't express it well, but his incredulity at that citation is understandable.

What did the OP quote? Something her parents said? Look I get it, this is a set up. I thought I could add my two cents but you are like rabid dogs at my heels.

I would never treat an Atheist with the disrespect I have taken. It's Ok though because you are a minority in the world but a majority on SD. You scream the loudest. We can't ever have a Christians point of view because you will squelch it. Go ahead I can take it but I will not take being called names above the pit. Go down there and call me all the names you want.

I'm going to pray for religious tolerance on these boards. I like all of you very much and this has gotten ugly. I will try and not stand up for my beliefs as much and avoid set ups.

Pax~

[Marley23]

I kindly ask the moderator to move this thread to the pit where it belongs.

I'll consider it, but I don't think you'll like the responses you get if I move it there. Be careful what you wish for.

I have never seen anyone on SD call anyone mentally retarded.

You're new here. And you'll notice he got a warning for it.

The Pit is where people like you need to go with your hatred and mean words.

You have to follow the rules here even if another poster insulted you. That means you're not supposed to make personal remarks about other posters either: that includes this quoted line and comments like "Because I have faith and an open mind you can't handle it." and "you are like rabid dogs at my heels."

[Der Trihs]

Originally Posted by Perciful

I'm going to pray for religious tolerance on these boards. I like all of you very much and this has gotten ugly. I will try and not stand up for my beliefs as much and avoid set ups.

And here comes the standard Christian "help I'm being oppressed" line. People disagreeing with you, pointing out where you are wrong and asking for evidence is not religious intolerance.

[Bryan Ekers]

Originally Posted by Perciful

I'm going to pray for religious tolerance on these boards.

Mind addressing my thought experiment from post #36 first?

[begbert2]

Originally Posted by Perciful

I did read my cite and I agree with it. Obviously you don't share my enthusiasm. This topic is a bunch of baloney put forth by the op to get people going against each other.

What about the OP's trying to incite trouble by quoting what her parents would never say in public.? The world belongs to the devil? Come on, I have never in my life heard that in a classroom!

Wait, are you asserting that the OP is making this position up? And that the other posters claiming personal experience with the breed are pretending as well? That no christians anywhere think the world belongs to the devil?

That's quite the claim, isn't it? Internet conspiracy! As if we're so short of things to shake our heads at christians about that we have to make them up.

Of course, you're also claiming that Genesis is taught in public schools, so...

Originally Posted by Perciful

I think Genesis teaches children a lot more about faith and hope then exploding rocks in space.

I'll bite - which part of Genesis is hopeful? Remember, it's not the new testament; God's the unforgiving vengeful jealous type here.

[marshmallow]

I went to middle class suburban public schools and I can't even imagine what they'd teach about evolution, nor can I Google because it just tells me about all those lovely court trials and general controversy. My schools taught us about cells, DNA, genetics, biospheres, organ systems, and sometimes specific animals (this week let's talk about jellyfish! Next week we cut open a frog, etc.).

What would middle-high school level evolution education look like? Anything about Darwin himself and the development of the idea over the last 150 years? A general history of the evolution of man in particular? Allopatric speciation? Molecular clocks? Sexual strategies? Phylogenetics? How deep does it go? I'm honestly curious what I missed out on.

[Chronos]

I went to middle class suburban public schools and I can't even imagine what they'd teach about evolution, nor can I Google because it just tells me about all those lovely court trials and general controversy. My schools taught us about cells, DNA, genetics, biospheres, organ systems, and sometimes specific animals (this week let's talk about jellyfish! Next week we cut open a frog, etc.).

If you covered all those topics without discussing evolution, then you didn't really cover any of those topics. Nothing in biology makes any sense outside of the context of evolution.

[begbert2]

Originally Posted by Chronos

If you covered all those topics without discussing evolution, then you didn't really cover any of those topics. Nothing in biology makes any sense outside of the context of evolution.

It makes sense to me. Seriously, I don't have to know the evolutionary history of a lung to know that it absorbs oxygen from the air into the bloodstream.

Come to think of it, I don't know the evolutionary history of lungs...