Ask the former fundamentalist who was exposed to (and accepted) evolution

In this thread, Kolga suggested that it might be interesting if I were to start a thread that recounted my departure from fundamentalism, so that others could ask me questions, and perhaps share excerpts from their own “deconversion” tales.

I could probably write a book about all my experiences within the womb of Southern fundamentalist Christianity, but in the interest of readability, I shall strive to be brief here.

[Mods: If this needs to go somewhere else, feel free.]

I grew up in east Tennessee, the son of a former Baptist missionary kid (mother), and zealous adult convert (father). Both parents had graduated from William Jennings Bryan College in Dayton, TN (where the Scopes Trial was held). My mom had two sets of career missionaries in her recent family, and my folks held lay leadership positions in our church.

Speaking of church, we of course went every time the doors were open. My early schooling years (elementary grades K - 4) were at a private fundamentalist school. So the first decade of my life, I was SATURATED in fundamentalist Christianity.

Even the books I read were children’s Bible story books. I remember having a few children’s books that were published by the Institute for Creation Research. These books argued that secular science (i.e., geology and biology) was all wrong, and that “true” science proved that the literal reading of Genesis was correct. As evidence of a young earth, these kids’ books had full-color illustrations and brief write-ups on such young-earth “evidences” as the Paluxy “man-tracks” and the “plesiosaur” snagged by the Japanese fishing boat in 1977 (which turned out to be a rotting basking shark carcass, btw).

For my family and friends, the word “evolution” itself was very much like an obscenity. It just SOUNDED evil, the way my parents and teachers and pastors would say it, resonating with a sense of malice and hatred of God, America, and puppies, or something.

But I was always—even as a child—on the skeptical side. I remember arguing with my parents over certain Biblical passages, insisting, without even realizing it at the time, that I was rejecting the doctrine of plenary inspiration. I remember one time in the early 1990’s, when I was in my mid-teens, my folks thought that Jesus’ Second Coming was imminent (they thought this because of certain interpretations of current events in Europe at the time, mirrored certain prophecies in the books of Daniel and Revelation). I told them it wouldn’t happen, that they were mistaken. Sure enough, it didn’t. My skepticism served me well.

When I joined the Army at 17, still nominally Christian, for some reason I can’t describe, I didn’t want any religious denomination at all on my dog tags. I selected “No religious preference” on my paperwork, so when I got my dog tags, sure enough, there it was: NO-REL-PREF. Point is, I was pretty much always “on the outside” the community of the faithful. Other soldiers “found God” in the Army. I found the value of sleeping in on Sunday.

Fast-forward to college: the University of Tennessee, a mainstream secular institution. I took a class in astronomy, and part of the course was on planetary and solar system science. The instructor, as a routine component of the class, covered the age of the earth, and the ways that that information had been determined through rigorous science. So I became an “old-earth creationist”. My folks were NOT pleased, and we had more than one heated argument over cosmology.

But also in university, somehow—certainly ironically—I became committed to my Christianity. Really…truly. I was “on fire for the Lord”. But I still respected and believed the science I was learning (astronomical, geological, and biological), and this triggered something of an intellectual-spiritual crisis. I looked for answers in the works of Christian scholars. I found an author named Hugh Ross, a Christian astronomer who wrote several books on old-earth creationism/intelligent design. He became my hero. Around this time I also found and read a book called Darwin’s Black Box, by a biochemist named Michael Behe (most folks will recognize that title!). But Behe didn’t impress me: committed Christian though I was, non-scientist though I was, I found several of his arguments woefully unconvincing (especially his analogy comparing living systems to inanimate junk, by which he argued that naturalistic abiogenesis is impossible, based solely on mathematical probabilities).

In the early 2000’s, after college, at the university where I still work today, I came across the writings of Robert Carroll (author of The Skeptic’s Dictionary). He argued, IIRC, that theism is as groundless a belief system, ultimately as irrational (or non-rational), as astrology, or homeopathy. I wasn’t entirely convinced by his atheistic reasoning, but reading his material at skepdic.com triggered a spiritual crisis for me. Cognitive dissonance. BIG TIME.

After a heart-rending period of several months, facing a grueling crisis of identity, was when I left for good. “Came out” to my family and everything. There’s more to the story, but this is too long already.

Questions? :slight_smile:

How did your immediate family (spouse, parents, grandparents, etc.) take it when you told them of your de-conversion? Were you able to continue any of those relationships afterward? What was the hardest part of tell them?

Post-script: It seems that in my desire to be brief (which I largely failed at), I glossed over almost the whole issue of evolution, proper. Ironic, given the title of the thread.

Along with mainstream cosmology & planetary science, I had also accepted evolutionary theory in college. So I was an evolutionist before walking away from Christianity (it is in fact true that one can be religious, and a believer in evolutionary science). In my case, however, there were many more reasons to doubt Christianity than the species-origins issue. (The Bible’s many errors and contradictions were HUGE for me, in this regard.)

I knew evolution was good science, pretty much from the beginning of my university studies, on. This year I read both Jerry Coyne’s Why Evolution Is True and Dawkins’ The Greatest Show On Earth: The Evidence For Evolution. I highly recommend these books.

-fin-

Most of my family took it very well, very respectfully. They expressed disappointment, and in some cases attempted to argue me out of it, but honestly (not to sound immodest here), I had read more philosophy, apologetics, Biblical criticism, and science, than all of them, combined. So their arguments were pretty easy to dispense with.

Even my mother, the most devout of all my family, appeared to take it rather well.* My wife was angry and disappointed for a long while, but she has always respected me above all, and I think she has her own doubts. (Since we don’t practice, it’s kind of a non-issue.) They all still love me, and I’m on pretty good terms with all of them. We just steer clear of religion, generally.

*My mother is the only possible exception to the general acceptance that my family has displayed. She doesn’t talk about it often, but occasionally she tells me that she is “destroyed” over my apostasy. She told me recently that the emotional/spiritual pain over my faithlessness is worse than even “physical beatings”. Honestly, I find that kind of talk to be little more than sanctimonious, insulting, self-martyrdom. And I told her so. So now that’s probably ANOTHER cross that she insists on carrying.

I used to be a young earth creationist… on the old Internet Infidels board I was called excreationist. When I was about 13 a “creation bus” visited my town and my family watched a presentation and bought some of their stuff. They talked about dragons being dinosaurs and dating the earth based on the decreasing magnetic field, etc. When I was about 16 I’d try hard to get creationist materials put in my Christian school though none of the teachers seemed to believe in a young earth. There was an article in a kid’s science magazine and when I was about 17 I wrote a many page reply rebuttal. I was reading anti-creationist books as well like “Telling Lies For God”. That book was very sloppy and it had many errors. Before university I asked God to let me know the truth, no matter how depressing it is. In university I created a site called “dirt or slime” (i.e. which is our ancestor) and it had links to both sides. I also had a section pointing out all the problems in books such as “Telling Lies for God”.
I also posted on some mailing lists but I got negative reactions. After posting on a skeptic’s address book I got a reply from Edward T Babinski… he is the author of “Leaving the Fold”. He sent me many pages of stuff… mainly about the Green River Formation. That geological thing seems undeniably old - a lot more that 4500 years old (when the global flood would have apparently caused it). The formation shows a history of different sizes and it has millions of “varves” (yearly layers) with different kinds of life in different layers.
Then I became an atheist and became depressed since I was already a bit unhappy though I had the company of God and the promise of heaven before. I eventually went on anti-depressants and was also suicidal sometimes. Since then I have sometimes believed in the supernatural but basically only when I’m on my way to being psychotic.

Interesting story, John. How did/does your family feel about your “deconversion”?

Why do fundamentalists treat Genesis as literal and not as a parable? After all, the account of creation in Genesis is a pretty good summation of what science says happened if you don’t take it literally.

You mean if you strip out all of the actual content?

pdts

So are you now an atheist, agnostic and/or still a believer or something else?

Also, have you seen Evid3nc3’s series on his deconversion on youtube?

It was interesting reading your story. I used to be a fundamentalist Christian (first Pentecostal, then Baptist) and am now an atheist Buddhist. I was not raised Christian, so my parents were generally both very ‘‘WTF’’ in response to my religiosity, until my mother later converted.

I was obsessively religious as a teen, particularly the early years. I would write letters and poems to God all day long. He was all I ever thought about and all that mattered to me. I spoke in tongues and even ‘‘exorcised’’ a ‘‘demon’’ once. I attended church several days a week due to my involvement in youth group, choir, bible study and volunteer groups. I was very annoying to my peers, because I would bring my Bible to school and never shut up about Jesus.

I was never a creationist, because I was really into science–I generally just believed that God had set evolution into motion. I never accepted the belief that homosexuality is wrong because I had gay friends and knew that the stuff preached about gay people was utter bullshit. I wasn’t very conservative in general. I didn’t understand or have interest in politics at that age, but I was definitely feeling a tension between my values and those of my brethren.

It was actually anti-gay bigotry that drove me out of the church to begin with, that combined with personal hardship that I could not reconcile with the idea of an all-loving God. Then in undergrad I discovered Nietzsche, and Nietzsche really helped me to let go of the idea of god for good.

It has taken me several years though to really have the courage to call myself an atheist. A part of me has always felt like I should believe, because that was my mentality growing up. There is something so comforting in that certainty that belief in God brings. And then there is the stigma against atheists. I mean nobody really wants to label themselves something alienating and stigmatizing.

But I am an atheist. Not an anti-theist–I think religion is fascinating and inspiring–but a person who does not believe in a God or gods. As a Buddhist I believe my life can have spiritual relevance without a conception of the supernatural.

Well my grandpa was a Lutheran pastor (before he died)… I told him while him and my grandma were on the phone. They said “that’s no good” or something. My dad said “then what happens after you die? nothing?” My relatives are all Lutherans except for my sisters. They go to an “annointed” pentecostal-type service with about 15 members. I’ve been to their church once but when me and my girlfriend wanted to go again they said it isn’t open until October. Anyway at least one of them said that I’m going to believe again and that my name’s written in the book of life.

What about the genealogies in Genesis that say so and so lived some obscure number of years and then fathered so and so and lived x number of years… there are lots of people and numbers in those genealogies. It makes it possible to date supposed creation and the worldwide flood to within a couple of years… what is the point of that part of the “parable”?
BTW one point AiG makes is that if Genesis isn’t literal there is death/curse before Adam and it destroys the gospel message and the promise of a restoration.
BTW the order of creation days has big holes if you subscribe to the day-age theory:

What would you say contributed more to your de-conversion, the scientific evidence, or the more abstract reasoning that had you conclude it to be illogical?

Is that site for real? The ironic thing is that it’s actually a pretty good summary of current cosmology and open questions in the field. I’m utterly perplexed as to how he can list in technical detail the evidence pointing to the theory and then just haphazardly toss it away because it doesn’t agree with the bible. It’s just mind boggling how some people’s minds work.

A belief that the Bible says it the universe is about 6000 years old or it isn’t the word of God and God doesn’t exist and evolution is true. The Green River Formation was the main reason but also there were similarities between chimps and humans including an old politically incorrect book about the similarity between people with down syndrome and apes.

Yeah that site is real… and they have counter-arguments for basically everything… so they have scientific-type reasons for rejecting those things as well. But ultimately they start with the assumption that the Bible is true. BTW another reason that it involves 6 literal days is:

Ex 20:8-11 - “[Work for 6 days, rest for 1]…For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.”

Thank you for starting this. I would very much be interested in hearing more about the months during which you stated you underwent a grueling identity crisis, if that’s not too personal. What questions did you ask yourself? What were the nature of your internal conflicts regarding your spiritual vs. scientific “identity” or thought process?

I know this is not part of your experience, but do you realize that most Christians are neither fundamentalist nor creationist, and it’s entirely possible to believe in both Jesus and evolution at the same time?

I just feel like the middle gets excluded a lot of times.

FWIW, I was a creationist growing up. By college/early twenties I realized that evolution had a lot more scientific weight than I had been led to believe. But if anything, I’m a stronger Christian now than I was then.

Do you reckon your folks will have you kidnapped by Churchmen and ‘De-Programmed’?

I don’t have time at the moment, Kolga, but I’ll get to this, I promise. :slight_smile:

I don’t know if you’re directing that question at me, Skammer, or at John, but here’s my answer:

Yup, I know. But the same set of mental faculties that drove me from away from creationism (critical thinking, general skepticism, a distaste for overreaching explanations), also drove me away from Christianity.

I won’t go into detail here, but suffice to say, I find an enormous amount of the New Testament to be equally implausible (as the OT). And I find a lot of Christian apologetics that attempts to justify and explain those NT difficulties, to be WAY overreaching and intellectually unacceptable.

BTW if early Genesis isn’t literal, what about the virgin birth, the death and resurrection and ascension of Jesus, eternal hell, and the ark - which was apparently 135 meters long…
http://www.creationtips.com/arksize.html

I went to a fundamentalist Baptist church in childhood until I was about 14. From what I was told about evolution and read in the Chick tracts (monkeys turned into humans and all that crap), I wondered how in the world anyone could believe in it. I mean, it didn’t make any sense. The church espoused a lot of other nonsense, too (one that I can recall is that the peace sign is either the broken cross or the witch’s footprint), but they were really hot on evolution.

It wasn’t until I read some actual biology books when I was about 10 or so that I learned what evolution actually claimed, and why. This made me question everything else I had heard in church. If they had lied about this, what else did they lie about? It’s kind of ironic that if I had gone to a more reasonable church that I might still be a Christian today.

I called myself an agnostic for a long time, and it hasn’t been until the last 15 years or so that I’ve called myself an atheist. I haven’t really changed my way of thinking, but it was hard to take on the mantle. It felt as if once I did, there would be no turning back, and the thought of a possible afterlife was a comfort that was hard to give up.

There were also the social implications. I lived in Oklahoma and south Louisiana, where people still believe in the literal existence of witches and demons. Admitting I was an atheist was pretty much the same as saying I was a satanist. Although it’s not the same, I wonder if the “coming out” process has some similiarities with telling someone that you’re gay. I’d be interested in hearing from anyone who’s experienced both, and what the simiarities and differences might be.