Aliens begin mining valuables we cannot, refusing to pay or share. What right have we to bitch?

[Skald the Rhymer]

Imagine, for a moment, that Gene Roddenberry was right and that the galaxy is chock-full of humanoid alien cultures, many of which have faster-than-light travel. Imagine further that there's a big honking deposit of dilithilium crystals in the Marianas Trench.* Let's further say that the galaxy needs dilithium, so an alien corporation comes to Earth and establishes mining operations. A mother ship establishes itself in orbit and sends down shuttles or whatever to set up a mining platform; once that's set up, the extracted dilithium ore is teleported up to the mother ship. Note that they don't ask permission; they just announce their presence and get to work.

Now the aliens aren't monsters. They do their mining in an environmentally resposible way, releasing neither greenhouse gases or mass-murdering kaiju; they handle any toxic byprodcuts of their operation before we're ever aware of them, and they don't massacre the deep-sea life or whatnot. But for all that they're not interested in sharing either their tech or the dilithium with us, even though the combination of the two would be the solution to many of the world's problems; nor do they pay any terrestrial government a penny in royalties for their mining operations.; and they plan to take every bit of dilithium they can get, then leave. Forcing the mother ship out of orbit or disabling the mining platform is not an option; both have force shield technology we haven't a prayer of cracking. Likewise interfering with the transporters is beyond our capability. They don't interact with us at all; they have their own food supplies and so forth, and think humans are too stinky to boink.

Nonetheless the UN protests to the mother ship, which dutifully passes on the complaint to the galactic federation. A week later we get a response in which the galactic federations asks us to explain why we have greater moral right to the dilithium than they do.

What answer should we give?


*Only once, just for twenty minutes, blah blah blah.

[Oakminster]

You'll have to cook up an answer. I'm gonna be busy figuring out how to blow the fracking mothership out of the sky. Or dying in a glorious attack on the mining platform.

[campp]

Maybe they'll say they applied for and got legitimate mining rights from the Federation, and we had better behave about this.

[Bricker]

We need to ask the galactic federation what notions of property and rights they recognize.

[Skald the Rhymer]

Originally Posted by campp

Maybe they'll say they applied for and got legitimate mining rights from the Federation, and we had better behave about this.

I think you're confused. I didn't ask why the alien corporation says they should mine; their answer is obviously going to be, "Because we can." I'm asking what moral or ethical justification you are going to wan tot give the Interstellar Diet for insisting that Dilithium Inc. pay royalties or otherwise compensate the Earth's peoples for what it's doing.

Maybe official policy in the Diet is that whatever is good for Dilithium Inc is good for the galaxy. But there's a large minority who thinks this is immoral, and they want to use Earth as an example in pushing through legislation to prohibit what's happening. What argument will you make?

[Boyo Jim]

If I've learned one thing, it's don't fuck with aliens who have incomprehensibly advanced technology.

Anyway, they wouldn't ask what you say. They would simply quote the relevant passage of intergalactic law, and either uphold our claim or not.

The best question we can ask is to be given a copy of the intergalactic law books.

[AClockworkMelon]

I don't even know who the aliens would pay royalties to. "The Earth" isn't a nation... so I'm not sure how to go about answering this.

[Boyo Jim]

Originally Posted by AClockworkMelon

I don't even know who the aliens would pay royalties to. "The Earth" isn't a nation... so I'm not sure how to go about answering this.

Excellent point! Imagine that the UN starts getting revenues independent of its member states. That's the start of a slippery slope to One World Government, I tells ya.

Of course, an intergalactic government would probably insist on that anyway...

[Skald the Rhymer]

Originally Posted by Bricker

We need to ask the galactic federation what notions of property and rights they recognize.

And let's say they respond like this:

Look, we're not monsters. We have Tasmanias and Trails of Tears in our own history, and we're ashamed of them; we spit on our version of Andrew Jackson. So we're not going to massacre you or enslave you; we categorically state that we have no right to kill a single Earth sentient or to intervene in your politics. But we regard property rights as something that a civilization must be capable of exercisingn to claim. You guys didn't know about the dilithium. You have no planet-wide government. The trench is in no nation-state's territory. Force shield, teleporter, and interstellar drive tech all require unobtainium, of which there is exactly bupkis on Earth; hell, so does the mining plaform. You were never, ever, going to be able to get to the dilithium, much less use it. Dilithium Inc is goin gout of its way to make sure they don't hurt you, and they haven't; if they do they'll be arrested. It is against our laws to harm you in any way; we have taken down bigger companies than DI for violating it. But why should we pay you for access to territory no Earthly nation owns, and whose resources you guys have no hope of ever utilizing?

But though that's the position of the current Galactic Premier, it's not universally held. His party holds about 40% of the seats in the Diet. The people who think that the argument above is crap have about 40% their ownselves, and the rest are undecided...and there's an election coming up. What argument doyou offer the dissenters to help them persuade the undecided, feckless wankers?

Originally Posted by AClockworkMelon

I don't even know who the aliens would pay royalties to. "The Earth" isn't a nation... so I'm not sure how to go about answering this.

I imagine that's part of the reasoning. If the dilithium vein were in Texas or Ukraine or New Zealand, Dilithium Inc would have had to negotiate for the right to mine there. But no nation has any real claim to the Marianas trench.

[Diogenes the Cynic]

I side with the aliens. Fuck us. We'd do the same to them if we could. We'd even do worse. I saw a documentary about human mining operation on another planet. That planet had a shitload of unobtanium, but it was underneath this giant tree where a bunch of blue aliens lived. The aliens wouldn't moved, so the humans just carpet bombed the shit out of them. So why should the aliens give us anything?

[silenus]

I'm with Oakminster. Kill them and eat their hearts.

[Boyo Jim]

Originally Posted by Diogenes the Cynic

I side with the aliens. Fuck us. We'd do the same to them if we could. We'd even do worse. I saw a documentary about human mining operation on another planet. That planet had a shitload of unobtanium, but it was underneath this giant tree where a bunch of blue aliens lived. The aliens wouldn't moved, so the humans just carpet bombed the shit out of them. So why should the aliens give us anything?

Oh, a documentary, eh?

[Skald the Rhymer]

Originally Posted by Diogenes the Cynic

I side with the aliens. Fuck us. We'd do the same to them if we could. We'd even do worse. I saw a documentary about human mining operation on another planet. That planet had a shitload of unobtanium, but it was underneath this giant tree where a bunch of blue aliens lived. The aliens wouldn't moved, so the humans just carpet bombed the shit out of them. So why should the aliens give us anything?

Are you talking about Avatar?

I still haven't seen it, though I bought the blue-ray the other day. I realize this isn't CS, but if y'all wouldn't mind not spoilering it I'd be grateful.

[Stealth Potato]

I don't think it's possible to come up with any argument from our own interests that doesn't boil down to "we deserve it because we said so!" An argument which appeals, in some measure, to the interests of the alien society is the only possible valid one, so if there is an answer I think it must be along those lines. Can we argue that the state of galactic culture would be improved by increasing diversity among the high-technology societies, so technology (and therefore the capability to exploit the whatsitanium) should be shared with us? If we can make that a popular cause among the galactic rank and file, we might have a chance.

Aside from that, I think that in all questions of morality we must realize that bitching is purely academic. The Athenians in the Melian Dialogue said it best: "Right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must."

[Peremensoe]

I'll concede the aliens have a point, as well as a strong negotiating position, and I'll hope that the necessity of vaporizing Oakminster and a few others won't tick them off so's they change their attitude toward the rest of us.

[Acid Lamp]

I would make an argument based on the aliens own inferred culture. We know that there is a federation, we've seen beings from different worlds, and we know that they trade. Presumably there is a process for gaining membership. While i wouldn't make a petition for Earth to join, I would argue that Dilithium Inc's actions are tantamount to total exile of the human race from interstellar travel. Since Humanity has begun intersolar system space flight, and the Federation recognizes us as a sentient race it would be unfair to relegate us eternally to our own system. We realize that Earth does not possess the necessary materials for their technology, but we DO have Dilithium, A much needed resource. Therefore they ought to trade us the dilithium for unrefined unobtanium and let us make our own progression to the stars. When we figure out how to invent the tech needed, we can join and trade other resources for the fuel.

[LonesomePolecat]

I would assume they'd give us the alien equivalent of $24 dollars worth of blankets, mirrors, beads and other trading goods just to buy us off and keep us from making too much of a stink.

[garygnu]

Originally Posted by Skald the Rhymer

And let's say they respond like this:

Look, we're not monsters. We have Tasmanias and Trails of Tears in our own history, and we're ashamed of them; we spit on our version of Andrew Jackson. So we're not going to massacre you or enslave you; we categorically state that we have no right to kill a single Earth sentient or to intervene in your politics. But we regard property rights as something that a civilization must be capable of exercisingn to claim. You guys didn't know about the dilithium. You have no planet-wide government. The trench is in no nation-state's territory. Force shield, teleporter, and interstellar drive tech all require unobtainium, of which there is exactly bupkis on Earth; hell, so does the mining plaform. You were never, ever, going to be able to get to the dilithium, much less use it. Dilithium Inc is goin gout of its way to make sure they don't hurt you, and they haven't; if they do they'll be arrested. It is against our laws to harm you in any way; we have taken down bigger companies than DI for violating it. But why should we pay you for access to territory no Earthly nation owns, and whose resources you guys have no hope of ever utilizing?

(Galactic parliamentary politics aside...)
You can't know for certain that we will never, ever get this dilithium. Merely the act of taking all of Earth's supply of it makes that a self-fulfilling prediction. Even without the help of you aliens, we are an ever-progressing civilization. If technology that needs dilithium can exist, we humans will eventually discover it, but not if you take it all away.
We're still the ones sitting on this pile. We'll need it later, I assure you. (Especially now that we know such technology exists. Look how much technology vital to civilization was only invented once, then copied.) Sure, you can take it if you want, but don't assume it'll be easy (read that as "cost-effective") if you don't have our cooperation.
Being an enterprising species, however, we'd certainly be willing strike a deal. The payment you offer has to be of real value to us. None of that trinkets-for-Manhattan bullcrap we pulled on ourselves. No, we want technology, and whatever materials beyond dilithium we need that we don't have as much of. Medical technology would be nice, but only if it's adaptable to our physiology. Weapons tech that we can use to deter other factions of aliens from not dealing economically with us would be useful.
Since this is now a planet-wide issue, I hope that you don't mind that we take this opportunity to finally form that world government our stunned populace now realizes is necessary. It might take a little bit of planning, so can you hold off for a few years? Thanks.

I think we can come to an arrangement.

[AClockworkMelon]

Originally Posted by Skald the Rhymer

Are you talking about Avatar?

I still haven't seen it, though I bought the blue-ray the other day. I realize this isn't CS, but if y'all wouldn't mind not spoilering it I'd be grateful.

Why no, he wasn't talking about Avatar at all!

[Skald the Rhymer]

Originally Posted by LonesomePolecat

I would assume they'd give us the alien equivalent of $24 dollars worth of blankets, mirrors, beads and other trading goods just to buy us off and keep us from making too much of a stink.

Why bother?

They have the force field tech. (I'm assuming that DI, being a private organization, is not allowed BFGs & such.) Even if they had negotiated a license, they'd be idiots to let the force fields down; my cite is human history.

[Boyo Jim]

Originally Posted by LonesomePolecat

I would assume they'd give us the alien equivalent of $24 dollars worth of blankets, mirrors, beads and other trading goods just to buy us off and keep us from making too much of a stink.

Originally Posted by Skald the Rhymer

Why bother?

They have the force field tech. (I'm assuming that DI, being a private organization, is not allowed BFGs & such.) Even if they had negotiated a license, they'd be idiots to let the force fields down; my cite is human history.

Because the blankets will be laced with the alien equivalent of small pox, and the beads and trinkets will destroy ouy economy.

[Green Bean]

I have a box of jeans that are too small for me in my storage unit. Just because I can't get 'em over my fat ass at the moment doesn't mean that you can just come and take them. They're mine.

In other words, just because we don't have the technology to get to the dilithium crystals right now doesn't mean that we won't ever have that technology. They do have value to us, even if we can't convert them into cash right now.


The questions of who should be paid for something that belongs to "earth" is interesting, but has no bearing on the question. If the aliens were willing to pay, I'm sure we'd find a way to accept the money.

[Skald the Rhymer]

Originally Posted by Green Bean

I have a box of jeans that are too small for me in my storage unit. Just because I can't get 'em over my fat ass at the moment doesn't mean that you can just come and take them. They're mine.

In other words, just because we don't have the technology to get to the dilithium crystals right now doesn't mean that we won't ever have that technology. They do have value to us, even if we can't convert them into cash right now.


The questions of who should be paid for something that belongs to "earth" is interesting, but has no bearing on the question. If the aliens were willing to pay, I'm sure we'd find a way to accept the money.

But Earth has no planetary government. Who gets the payment? Why should the United States or Britain or Brazil or Germany or Saudi Arabia get any of it (just to name a few), since none of them are anywhere near the Marianas Trench.

If the payment goes to China, Japan, the Phillippines, and Papua New Guinea (the nation-states nearest the trench), and is at all appreciable, won't that be destabalizing to the geopolitical situation? Especially if the payment is in technology? Can't you imagine Russia saying "Say what? Japan's getting FTL tech? Oh, hell no. Fuck that shit. Let's get to invading."

And why should the nations get any of it anyway? None of them did anything to create the dilithium.

[Sage Rat]

Originally Posted by Skald the Rhymer

Look, we're not monsters. We have Tasmanias and Trails of Tears in our own history, and we're ashamed of them; we spit on our version of Andrew Jackson. So we're not going to massacre you or enslave you; we categorically state that we have no right to kill a single Earth sentient or to intervene in your politics. But we regard property rights as something that a civilization must be capable of exercisingn to claim. You guys didn't know about the dilithium. You have no planet-wide government. The trench is in no nation-state's territory. Force shield, teleporter, and interstellar drive tech all require unobtainium, of which there is exactly bupkis on Earth; hell, so does the mining plaform. You were never, ever, going to be able to get to the dilithium, much less use it. Dilithium Inc is goin gout of its way to make sure they don't hurt you, and they haven't; if they do they'll be arrested. It is against our laws to harm you in any way; we have taken down bigger companies than DI for violating it. But why should we pay you for access to territory no Earthly nation owns, and whose resources you guys have no hope of ever utilizing?

No nation has rights, perhaps, but no human would agree that Earth or its minerals are anything other than human property.We had the potential to profit as a species from something that was clearly within our zone of interests. We may not ever need nor want dilithium, but there would certainly have been something that we would have traded the rights for that Dilithium Inc. could have afforded. And it's perfectly possible that at some point the human species could have wanted that dilithium when our own technology had advanced enough. At that point in time, having lost ready access to it may put our development back hundreds of years.

And regardless of whether or not anyone or anything was hurt, having aliens coming in and helping themselves to anything they think we don't want is scary and can cause psychological harm to people who are worried that this is the sort of precedent which will lead the newly discovered alien species to feel free to come in and snatch our children, use us as a source of food, or as laboratory rats. Why should we trust the word of an alien species who comes in and takes stuff without attempting to start ambassadorial dialog nor show any good-faith offering to the locals irregardless of technical claims of ownership? If you are that enlightened a species, your handling of this situation doesn't demonstrate it, which subsequently means that we have no faith that you are indeed an enlightened species meaning us peace and good will.

[Ogre]

but no human would agree that Earth or its minerals are anything other than human property.

This is unfortunately true, and what has got us in a great deal of ecological trouble.

[Skald the Rhymer]

Originally Posted by Sage Rat

No nation has rights, perhaps, but no human would agree that Earth or its minerals are anything other than human property.We had the potential to profit as a species from something that was clearly within our zone of interests. We may not ever need nor want dilithium, but there would certainly have been something that we would have traded the rights for that Dilithium Inc. could have afforded. And it's perfectly possible that at some point the human species could have wanted that dilithium when our own technology had advanced enough. At that point in time, having lost ready access to it may put our development back hundreds of years.
.

Does your answer change if the the Galactic Diet's answer, posted above, was the simple truth? That is, what if using dlithiium--even distinguishing it from quartz or whatever--requires unobtainium, and their scans indicate that there's not a smidgeon of the latter anywhere in the solar system; and, thus, we were simply never going to know what we had, much less be able to put it to use?

[kanicbird]

We are all children of the same universe, just that we are in a more primitive state, we, as infant children of the universe, and still dependent on the cradle of humanity called earth, cry out to our brothers and sisters across the stars that some are taking what we have been given as needed for our evolution and growth, we also cry out to the Lord God Almighty, maker of the universe.

If no reply or still denied then cry out on all frequencies that we are able to, including prayer.

[billfish678]

I would claim that we, as a human species, have suffered from a lack of educational, situational, social, economic, technological, and biological opportunities to enable us to mine this material. If things were different we coulda done it too. I'd also throw in "its a human thing, you Greys just don't understand, and BTW quite oppressing us with your superior abilities". Then I'd unlease the fury of our most rabid feminists and Jesse Jackson upon them.

[Sage Rat]

Originally Posted by Skald the Rhymer

Does your answer change if the the Galactic Diet's answer, posted above, was the simple truth? That is, what if using dlithiium--even distinguishing it from quartz or whatever--requires unobtainium, and their scans indicate that there's not a smidgeon of the latter anywhere in the solar system; and, thus, we were simply never going to know what we had, much less be able to put it to use?

1) They may be wrong about that. With their technology it is infeasible, but with our future technology it potentially could be feasible. It's also possible by that time that we'd have made trade relations with a species who was willing to trade unobtanium to us. And as said, even if it was entirely useless to us, it would still be useful as something to trade to other species.
2) That was only one of several arguments made. The other arguments still stand.

[The Second Stone]

I'd argue that mining the earth, which has no representation in the Federation is a trespass of which they have no right under international law to do. I'd then have the UN assign jurisdiction to an appropriate US district court for a civil trespass suit and take the default of the DI and the space govt and start letting interest accrue. Then get cracking on what we can learn so that we can start catching up technologically. Keep renewing the judgment and in a few thousand years enforce the judgment with compounded interest.

And I'd make sure the lawyers who did all this were able to add their fees to the judgment.

[Skald the Rhymer]

Originally Posted by The Second Stone

I'd argue that mining the earth, which has no representation in the Federation is a trespass of which they have no right under international law to do. I'd then have the UN assign jurisdiction to an appropriate US district court for a civil trespass suit and take the default of the DI and the space govt and start letting interest accrue. Then get cracking on what we can learn so that we can start catching up technologically. Keep renewing the judgment and in a few thousand years enforce the judgment with compounded interest.

And I'd make sure the lawyers who did all this were able to add their fees to the judgment.

They'll all be dead before they can collect. 'Specially since you just declared war on the Feds. If THEIR CIVILIANS have impenetrable force shields & warp drive, their MILITARY has surely got photon torpedos too. Not that they need them, as they're in orbit and can just drop rocks.

[Acid Lamp]

Originally Posted by Skald the Rhymer

They'll all be dead before they can collect. 'Specially since you just declared war on the Feds. If THEIR CIVILIANS have impenetrable force shields & warp drive, their MILITARY has surely got photon torpedos too. Not that they need them, as they're in orbit and can just drop rocks.

We could threaten to launch all our nukes at them anyway. Since we would almost all certainly die in the resulting nuclear holocaust, it would look pretty bad on DI that they wouldn't simply give the primitive screwheads something to shut them up thus resulting in the complete genocide of a fledgling species.

[Trepa Mayfield]

Originally Posted by kanicbird

We are all children of the same universe, just that we are in a more primitive state, we, as infant children of the universe, and still dependent on the cradle of humanity called earth, cry out to our brothers and sisters across the stars that some are taking what we have been given as needed for our evolution and growth, we also cry out to the Lord God Almighty, maker of the universe.

If no reply or still denied then cry out on all frequencies that we are able to, including prayer.

I'm with kanicbird on this one. There's no particular argument that would work, and all we can do is hope and pray and beg for some unobtanium to kick start our journey to the stars.

[Chimera]

#1 - Present them with a Bill for the ore, because it is arguably our property.
#2 - The Magic of Compound Interest.
#3 - Ok, we know this technology works, so this means that any physics we have that says it doesn't work is obviously in error. Time to start investigating theories that allow this technology.

Then finally, a long long while from now;

#4 - Hi. We're from the Earth. Here's your bill. Pay up.

[G0sp3l]

As long as no Vogon constructor fleets are involved I'd probably just roll with it. And make sure I have a towel handy.

If they just crossed a galaxy to get here, I'm doubting they're going to be overly sympathetic.

"Your concerns are duly noted, next time evolve faster."

[msmith537]

I don't know. Why don't you ask the American Indians? Isn't that essentially what the Europeans and later the United States government did? Basically coming in with their advanced technology and cited or inventing whatever legal precedent they needed to make themselves feel good about it?

The "right" we have is that it is our planet, not the alien's. As the occupants of our planet, it is ours to do as we see fit. The only "right" the aliens have is the fact that we probably wouldn't be able to do anything to stop them.

[Boyo Jim]

Originally Posted by Acid Lamp

We could threaten to launch all our nukes at them anyway. Since we would almost all certainly die in the resulting nuclear holocaust, it would look pretty bad on DI that they wouldn't simply give the primitive screwheads something to shut them up thus resulting in the complete genocide of a fledgling species.

You want to kill all humans and almost every other species on the planet, to make some aliens look bad to other aliens, in a report none of us will live to read?

Ok, I'm in.

[Dallas Jones]

The aliens will react to a cease and desist demand from the U.N. pretty much the same way anyone else does.

"Ooooh, the U.N is pissed, ooooh, we all scared now!" Then after the aliens have all had a good laugh they will keep doing what they want.

[Acid Lamp]

Originally Posted by Boyo Jim

You want to kill all humans and almost every other species on the planet, to make some aliens look bad to other aliens, in a report none of us will live to read?

Ok, I'm in.

Nah, but considering the political situation that Skald mentioned, any reaction other than a beneficial one towards humanity would be corporate suicide for DI. He mentioned that about 50% plus of the federation was either sympathetic or undecided towards us. If they use their tech to negate our threat, they are bullies. If they continue unabated while stalling, they are bullies AND sleeze. If they call our bluff, they are bullies. THEY know and WE know that we'd never actually do it, but they don't really have the political goodwill behind them to steamroller us if we play the card. The worst we come out is the plucky little earthlings, valiantly and perhaps stupidly trying everything to preserve their resources.

[Rand Rover]

Originally Posted by Skald the Rhymer

A week later we get a response in which the galactic federations asks us to explain why we have greater moral right to the dilithium than they do.

What answer should we give?

We say "OK, whatever, please don't kill us all or mess up our planet, thanks."

There's no such thing as a "moral right" when two different societies are interacting. We do not have the power to force them to stop doing what they are doing, so all the "moral right" in the world (or the universe) amounts to absolutely jack shit.

[Rand Rover]

Originally Posted by Skald the Rhymer

I think you're confused. I didn't ask why the alien corporation says they should mine; their answer is obviously going to be, "Because we can." I'm asking what moral or ethical justification you are going to wan tot give the Interstellar Diet for insisting that Dilithium Inc. pay royalties or otherwise compensate the Earth's peoples for what it's doing.

Maybe official policy in the Diet is that whatever is good for Dilithium Inc is good for the galaxy. But there's a large minority who thinks this is immoral, and they want to use Earth as an example in pushing through legislation to prohibit what's happening. What argument will you make?

OK, looks like I misunderstood as well. This is a slightly different question than whether a "moral right" exists in the first place.

I think we would argue that the resources on a planet inhabited by a sentient species are the property of that species, even if the species does not yet have the technology to make use of those resources. We would argue that the federation should have a rule against forcibly taking resources from other species to promote intergalactic peace (because humans may at some point be able to visit the alien planet and may then seek revenge).

These are of course just arguments made to try and get our way--there's still no "moral right" involved.

[Acid Lamp]

Originally Posted by Rand Rover

We say "OK, whatever, please don't kill us all or mess up our planet, thanks."

There's no such thing as a "moral right" when two different societies are interacting. We do not have the power to force them to stop doing what they are doing, so all the "moral right" in the world (or the universe) amounts to absolutely jack shit.

So force is all that matters? In that case, I'll be over soon, you got nice stuff I'll bet. Seriously though is really how you view the world? I'll grant that rights and moral truths are both subjective and malleable, but surely some basic principles are derived from our shared human nature. Nearly every culture has some variation on the golden rule after all.

[Rand Rover]

Originally Posted by Skald the Rhymer

But though that's the position of the current Galactic Premier, it's not universally held. His party holds about 40% of the seats in the Diet. The people who think that the argument above is crap have about 40% their ownselves, and the rest are undecided...and there's an election coming up. What argument doyou offer the dissenters to help them persuade the undecided, feckless wankers?

Just thought of something else (in line with my "avoidance of intergalactic violence" plea above): we could argue that other planets will find out what they are doing, and some of those planets may have the technology to harm the aliens.

We could also go full retard on the violence idea by swearing to seek vengeance in a few thousand years (which could prompt a pre-emptive strike against us if their commitment to not hurting us isn't so strong after all).

[Shakester]

Originally Posted by Skald the Rhymer

Nonetheless the UN protests to the mother ship, which dutifully passes on the complaint to the galactic federation. A week later we get a response in which the galactic federations asks us to explain why we have greater moral right to the dilithium than they do.

What answer should we give?

There is such a power imbalance in that scenario that it doesn't really matter what answer we give.

People are comparing this scenario to colonialism, but perhaps a better comparison would be, for instance, to the "rights" of the creatures that inhabit a block of land on which a human being wishes to build a house. Because compared to an alien species that can do the things described in the OP, we are animals. (Talking animals, yes, but whatever. Considering the majority of the stuff that actually gets said, I'd hesitate to describe the ability to talk as an indicator of significant intellect. Cite: talk radio.)

We have laws to protect endangered species, and humans can get in big trouble for cruelty to animals, but when a mining company builds an oil rig, we don't negotiate with the fish for property rights. Nor do we pay them for the use of "their" resources.

In the OP's scenario, I'd say that homo sap is getting something very valuable out of the deal: a lesson. I'd ask them for a decent general history of their civilisation, translated into Earthish, because we have a lot to learn. As it is, I wouldn't want the human species to be zooming around the galaxy with powerful weapons any more than I'd want, say, a family of chimpanzees with submachine guns to move into my backyard.

If we can get to a comparable point of civilisation to them, then we'd have earned the right to be treated as equals. Demanding that they give us stuff that we're clearly too uncivilised to have come up with by ourselves... well, we wouldn't give guns to chimps, would we? That'd be crazy.

[Rand Rover]

Originally Posted by Acid Lamp

So force is all that matters? In that case, I'll be over soon, you got nice stuff I'll bet.

Remember that we are talking about interactions between people that are not members of the same society. In that situation, yes, force is all that matters. There's no "ought" here.

You and I are members of the same society (assuming you are in the US). In addition to the laws against theft we have in our society, I am willing to accept the existence of an "ought" for members of society (i.e., that members of a society ought to comply with the rules of that society, both written and unwritten). I think the basis for this "ought" is the definition of society and the voluntariness of society membership (i.e., membership in the society is a social contract to abide by the rules of the society). This gets more complicated because of the different types and levels of society (again, the voluntariness issue--choosing to leave the New York Friends of the Library isn't such a big deal, but choosing to renounce your US citizenship is). So, I think that the NYFotL can have fairly stringent and arbitrary rules that members must follow, but the US needs to not have such detailed rules for all members to follow.

I'm long-winded tonight, sorry.

[The Second Stone]

Originally Posted by Skald the Rhymer

They'll all be dead before they can collect. 'Specially since you just declared war on the Feds. If THEIR CIVILIANS have impenetrable force shields & warp drive, their MILITARY has surely got photon torpedos too. Not that they need them, as they're in orbit and can just drop rocks.

But their heirs, assigns and successors will be alive. This isn't a declaration of war, it's a invitation to participate in a lawsuit. You seem to be making this all up as you go along! If you had said that they would respond to purely paper attempts to assert jurisdiction with extinction of humans, then I wouldn't have suggested it. I merely invited them to come to court to discuss it like civilized people. They can come and discuss it, ignore it or start war. You decide that they will start war. All I'm doing is passing around paper so that when the tables are turned we won't be like black people asking for reparations, we will already have them in place. With interest!

[billfish678]

Originally Posted by Shakester

. As it is, I wouldn't want the human species to be zooming around the galaxy with powerful weapons any more than I'd want, say, a family of chimpanzees with submachine guns to move into my backyard.

.

This shit doesnt happen in the suburbs. Just sayin.

[Acid Lamp]

Originally Posted by Rand Rover

Remember that we are talking about interactions between people that are not members of the same society. In that situation, yes, force is all that matters. There's no "ought" here.



I'm long-winded tonight, sorry.

I take your point, But I need another of clarification. If I understand you correctly, you are fine with the idea of me going to another country, beating up a lot of people, and taking their stuff merely because they are weaker and not part of the same social contract as myself?

[Rand Rover]

Originally Posted by Acid Lamp

I take your point, But I need another of clarification. If I understand you correctly, you are fine with the idea of me going to another country, beating up a lot of people, and taking their stuff merely because they are weaker and not part of the same social contract as myself?

Well, if you do that, I don't think you've violated some "moral right" of those people not to get beaten up, and you haven't done anything immoral (i.e., you have not done something that you should not do). There's no "ought" applicable to this situation. That action is something you can do if you want to.

Now, it has practical implications for you, and for the society of which you are a part, so our society may have rules against you doing that. I could even see some argument that you've violated the unwritten rules of our society (and so therefore ought not do that). But if our society is, say, the Vikings, then that would be out the window.

[Acid Lamp]

Originally Posted by Rand Rover

Well, if you do that, I don't think you've violated some "moral right" of those people not to get beaten up, and you haven't done anything immoral (i.e., you have not done something that you should not do). There's no "ought" applicable to this situation. That action is something you can do if you want to.

Now, it has practical implications for you, and for the society of which you are a part, so our society may have rules against you doing that. I could even see some argument that you've violated the unwritten rules of our society (and so therefore ought not do that). But if our society is, say, the Vikings, then that would be out the window.

Wow...Ok then. Point clarified, thanks.