Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory Question

[HeyHomie]

Great movie. It was on ABC last night.

Anyway, that hideous scene where they all step onto the boat to get from one part of the factory to the next. The Oompa-Loompas row faster and faster while around the boat are flashing lights, scenes of worms & bugs & such, and an image of Slugworth. The children (and parents) are at first confused and then terrified; all the while Wonka just keeps singing/chanting/yelling to sort-of egg them on.

I never understood the reason for having such a hideous and disturbing scene in an otherwise uplifting and fun movie. So my question is.... WTF????

I've come up with some ideas:

1) The movie was released in 1971, and in the early 70's you had to include a scene that didn't make any sense (to the hoi polloi, anyway) into every movie, for art's sake.

2) The movie was released in 1971, as construction was wrapping up on Walt Disney World. It was the director's way of taking a swipe at the It's A Small World attraction; that is, Wonka's Boat Ride of Horror is the anti It's A Small World.

3) Wonka deliberately wanted to antagonize and frighten the kids, because he's a bit of an asshole.

4) Wonka just wanted to equate Slugworth with confusion, fear and grossness.

And on the chance that the scene is also in the book (Charlie And the Chocolate Factory, in case you didn't know)....

5) It's a scene that makes more sense in the book (I haven't read it).

6) It's a scene that doesn't make any sense in the book, either.

So what's the scoop? Has the director/writer or someone revealed what it was all about?

Thanks.

[casdave]

I always wondered what I was missing in that scene too.

Was it trying to show that in every genious there is a touch of madness ?

[Kilgore Trout]

Was it trying to show that in every genious there is a touch of madness ?

I never understood the reason for having such a hideous and disturbing scene in an otherwise uplifting and fun movie.

are you sure you guys watched the rest of the movie? this scene fits perfectly, especially with wonka's character. he is a sadistic madman. that is all.

[puddleglum]

My theory is that Wonka is trying to confuse and disorient them. He is trying to make his factory seem like a dream world that is cut off from reality. In order to do this he wants to create confusion in the minds of his guests over how long they are on the boat, how fast it went and how far they travelled. Thus when they leave the factory and are interviewed about it they tell stories that are wild and fanciful. This enhances the Wonka mystique that he uses to sell candy bars.

[Johanna]

Great movie. Caught it last night with my kids. (My oldest is a Roald Dahl freak.) They sure don't make 'em like that any more. It was edgy, irreverent, and kept you guessing. Such a far cry from the over-refined pabulum that is the excuse for kids' movies these days. In the early 70s, they were more willing to push boundaries, test new things.

Rastahomie, remember when this was made the 1960s were still raging. I was just stunned to revisit how druggy and trippy this movie actually was. The acid freakout scene in Easy Rider was pretty lame compared to Willy Wonka's psychedelic trip! I liked the way the director wasn't afraid to take chances and play with your head. Wonka is a timeless archetypal character, the Trickster. The greatest children's fantasy literature always included nightmarish content, something we forget in this day and age when everything has to be so censored and people walk on eggshells for fear of offending someone. I liked it that, despite the stern moral lessons set to music by the nightmarish Oompa Loompas, not everything was so pat and complacent, it left some weirdnesses unanswered.

Oom-pa, loom-pa, doom-pi-dee doo....

[Sn-man]

I think Jomo Mojo has it right. Our family watched the 30th anniversary special too. We both (wife & I) thought it very much a “psychedelic” movie. There is a very wide range of emotion presented through the whole movie. I don’t think that in a “normal” state you are much in touch with the emotion. But add a good dose of “Vitamin A”, and I think that the whole thing would be one big roller coaster, emotionally and visually. It would be interesting to try it again and see the movie, but I don’t really have the desire to do anymore psychedelics.

[BobT]

If you had the read book, you would have realized that the film held fairly closely to the book. The one big scene that isn't in the book is when Charlie and Grandpa swallow the Fizzy Lifting Gas and almost get sucked into the fan.

Roald Dahl's children's works were all a bit unconventional. The sequel to "Charlie and the Chocolate Factory", "Charlie and the Great Glass Elevator" is even more bizzare at points, including parts where all the grandparents regress in age and Charlie has to go fetch them out of "Minus Land".

The only I could never understand about the film is why the Grandpa character is played by Jack Albertson, who doesn't have an English accent, although Charlie has a bit of one.

[Johanna]

The one big scene that isn't in the book is when Charlie and Grandpa swallow the Fizzy Lifting Gas and almost get sucked into the fan.

Is there any doubt that this movie was made with potheads and acidheads in mind? That's the point where Grandpa says, "Wow, we're getting really high now."
LOL!!!

[socialxray]

The only I could never understand about the film is why the Grandpa character is played by Jack Albertson, who doesn't have an English accent, although Charlie has a bit of one.

That's a very interesting and confusing part of the movie. Several of the characters within Charlie's town have British accents (his school teacher) or American ones (his family) and then they seem to be driving German automobiles. WTF?!?!

[BobT]

Originally posted by socialxray

That's a very interesting and confusing part of the movie. Several of the characters within Charlie's town have British accents (his school teacher) or American ones (his family) and then they seem to be driving German automobiles. WTF?!?!

I checked the IMDB and the film was shot in Germany. Most of it was shot in Munich, but the city the glass elevator flies over is Nordlingen.

So, it's an English book, produced and directed by Americans, and shot in Germany.

The cast has several German actors in it.

One of the Oompa-Loompas was played by Angelo Muscat, who also played the mysterious midget butler on "The Prisoner."

[peepthis]

Originally posted by BobT
Roald Dahl's children's works were all a bit unconventional. The sequel to "Charlie and the Chocolate Factory", "Charlie and the Great Glass Elevator" is even more bizzare at points, including parts where all the grandparents regress in age and Charlie has to go fetch them out of "Minus Land".

I'd say Dahl was pretty unconventional all around. Check out Switch Bitch if you get the chance; not psychadelic, but a great read.

[dr hermes]

I always thought the children met hideous deaths at Wonka's hands. He reassures the group that the kids will be restored and returned as good as new, but do we we ever see them come back? No. WILLY WONKA is in fact a horror movie and that one scary scene was the title character giving himself away.

[Slithy Tove]

Did they show the chicken decapitation?

[socialxray]

I always thought the children met hideous deaths at Wonka's hands. He reassures the group that the kids will be restored and returned as good as new, but do we we ever see them come back? No. WILLY WONKA is in fact a horror movie and that one scary scene was the title character giving himself away.

In the book the children come out fine, if not a little bit wiser for the wear. In the movie they don't show that part. When the elevator flies out of the building, Charlie, Grandpa and Willy see the other children leaving the factory. My favourite part is how Mike Teevee after going through the taffy stretching machine is now seven feet tall. Hehe.

[Skwerl]

Originally posted by BobT
If you had the read book, you would have realized that the film held fairly closely to the book. The one big scene that isn't in the book is when Charlie and Grandpa swallow the Fizzy Lifting Gas and almost get sucked into the fan.

So does Charlie not lose the contest at first, like he does in the movie? Or do he and Grandpa do something even more dastardly, like gangbang an Oompah Loompah?

[BobT]

I don't believe Charlie and Grandpa Joe incur the wrath of Willie Wonka in the book like they do in the movie.

However, I haven't read the book since 1972.

[Quasimodem]

[/b][/quote]

but the city the glass elevator flies over is Nordlingen.
[/b][/quote]

Are you sure? Rothenburg ob der Tauber just happens to be a village next to Nordlingen, and that wall and tower sure look like Rothenburg. I couldn't find any corroboration of my theory on any of the WW sites, so you may be right, but I was just in Rothenburg in November, bought a panoramic view screen-saver of the town and it sure looks like that's what I saw in the movie.

Q

[Measure for Measure]

I saw the movie (and read the book) a _long_ time ago, but...

Mr. Wonka's agenda and the extent of his benevolence is one of the unfolding questions in the story. The scary scene establishes WW as a possibly threatening character and the kids/parents adventure as possibly dangerous.

What's an adventure without a little danger?

[Lizard]

Originally posted by BobT
I don't believe Charlie and Grandpa Joe incur the wrath of Willie Wonka in the book like they do in the movie.

No, they don't. He doesn't even really notice them until they are the last ones left. (I last read the book in 1988, but I've never watched the entire movie.)

To answer the OP, in the book the parents and children are terrified by the boatride. It's portrayed as being hair-raising and scary. My guess is the "trippy" scene in the movie is an attempt at a "scary" scene that won't hit the 'ol special effects budget very hard. When you think about how much more expensive it would've been to make a high-speed boat ride underground than it was to make the scene in the movie (where they basically just sit in the boat while colored lights flash and Wonka talks in a spooky voice), my point becomes clear.

[C K Dexter Haven]

A major book-to-movie change, just to clarify: In the movie, Charlie and his Granda try the fizzy drink and float up to the ceiling, but manage to escape. In the book, the fizzy floating drink is mentioned but no one drinks it; Charlie wins the contest because he is the only one left, the only one who didn't disobey. The movie, by having Charlie disobey (just like all the others), makes hash of the whole idea behind the contest, IMHO.

BTW, has anyone heard the rumour that a remake is being considered with Nicholas Cage as Willie Wonka? On the grounds that the movie wasn't "faithful" to the book (which seems sort of bogus, since Dahl was heavily involved in the movie screenplay.)

[HeyHomie]

Originally posted by C K Dexter Haven
BTW, has anyone heard the rumour that a remake is being considered with Nicholas Cage as Willie Wonka?

Yes, as a matter of fact, I did hear or read that somewhere. At first I was slightly appalled, as I don't believe Nicholas Cage can sing ("Come with me, and you'll see, a whole world of pure imagination......."). But then I got to thinking about what modern CGI and other special effects can do to that scene when they first enter the main room of the Factory....

Now I'm hoping it happens.

[Bottle of Smoke]

Originally posted by Slithy Tove
Did they show the chicken decapitation?

Yup, they sure did. In all its glory. I thought my kids (ages 5 and 4) might be freaked out by it, but I'm not sure they really realized what they were seeing.

[Rosebud]

I'm gonna agree with the posters who are saying he was just messing with the kids & parents' heads. I absolutely don't see WW as an asshole-- I love that character, and I always saw him as someone who didn't suffer fools gladly, be they children or grown-ups. There's very much a sense that he had most of them figured out more or less on sight, and I like to interpret the boat ride scene as WW giving a well deserved tweak to the little brats and to their equally bratty parents.

I think we're supposed to conclude that he knew all along that Charlie would be The One, though that does make you wonder why he risked frightening Charlie along with the others.

[Flymaster]

Originally posted by QUASIMODEM

but the city the glass elevator flies over is Nordlingen.
[/b][/quote]

Are you sure? Rothenburg ob der Tauber just happens to be a village next to Nordlingen, and that wall and tower sure look like Rothenburg. I couldn't find any corroboration of my theory on any of the WW sites, so you may be right, but I was just in Rothenburg in November, bought a panoramic view screen-saver of the town and it sure looks like that's what I saw in the movie.

Q [/b][/quote]
I KNEW it looked familliar! I'm on your side...that definetly is Rothenburg. Beautiful town, isn't it?

[BobT]

I was just quoting info from IMDB, so another city could be the right answer.

[Keeve]

Originally posted by Rosebud
I absolutely don't see WW as an asshole-- I love that character, and I always saw him as someone who didn't suffer fools gladly, be they children or grown-ups.

Ditto

[sqweels]

During my own acid phase, I became obsessed with drawing parallels between the psychedelic experience and various initation rituals. I saw similarities in the "Greek" fraternity initiation, various tribal initations, the plot of the Star Wars trilogy, and even the experience of Christ. WWATCF fit perfectly, and it was the boat ride scene which clinched it for me.

The basic scenario is that you're lured into a wonderous new world only to later find yourself confronted with demons of fear and temptation. By resisting and remaining true to yourself and being willing to sacrifice all, you pass the test and achieve true enlightenment.

During the boat ride we see scary monsters as well as a glimpse of the sinister Gobb Slugworth, who represents not a physical threat but a spiritual one. This is highly reminicent of the demonic imagery you see in the depths of an acid trip. Slugworth has offered Charlie a considerable sum if he would betray Wonka and deliver a sample of the "everlasting gobbstopper", but in the end Charlie resists the temptation and returns the gobbstopper to Wonka out of pure selflessness and passes the test.

A scene in The Empire Strikes Back where Luke contronts a phantom Darth Vader only to have it turn into himself also touches a psychedelic nerve. The demons are a refection of your dark side and you must resist their offers of power or become wrapped up in evil.

[RailroadShorty]

Did they show the chicken decapitation?

There's a chicken decapitated with an ax, a man with some kind of worm or snake crawling on his face, a giant eye, a lizard eating some other living creature, and Slugworth. That's all I remember, having finished watching it literally minutes ago on DVD before stumbling upon this thread. BTW, the DVD is out of print now and selling for $50+ on Ebay. I wonder if a 30th Anniversary edition is in the works?

My guess is the "trippy" scene in the movie is an attempt at a "scary" scene that won't hit the 'ol special effects budget very hard. When you think about how much more expensive it would've been to make a high-speed boat ride underground than it was to make the scene in the movie (where they basically just sit in the boat while colored lights flash and Wonka talks in a spooky voice), my point becomes clear.

I disagree here. There used to be a ride at Disney World that consisted of a conveyance that moved at a snail's pace while scenery (on film) whipped past, giving the passengers a disorienting sense of high-speed movement. This kind of mind-trip is arguably more freaky than the straightforward thrill of a rollercoaster, for example. I think Wonka was screwing with his guests' perceptions, making them uncertain of what they saw with their own eyes.

[Inky-]

It's a "Gateway" scene. A point at which, if the characters choose to pass through, nothing will ever be the same.

You see this in movies like Star Wars when Luke enters the Cantina full of weird creatures or the tree on Degobah (sp?) where he confronts the Luke/Vader vision. Or in The Wizard of Oz where Dorothy steps from her black and white Kansas home into the Technocolor Oz. Anythings possible from that point on.

[sqweels]

Well, Inky], I would think that the gateway scene in WW was when they passed through the gateway into the "Chocolate Room" (where everything was edible).

You are correct in that the Cantina scene in SW:ANH was the gateway, but there wouldn't be 2 in the same story. My assertion is that the tree/cave scene in SW:TESB along with the boat scene in WW is where the hero glimpses his deepest fears.

(Shades of Joseph Campbell here, but in fact I developed my theories before I ever heard of him)

[Freudian Slit]

Oh! I love that movie, it's one of my faves.

Yeah the boat ride always got to me. Though I watched it when I was young and never really thought about it that much. When I got older, I started realizing...WTF?

I always thought Wonka was pretty cool back then. When I re-viewed it on TBS a few months ago, I started to dislike him a bit. Considering that what the kids do isn't all that bad. Eating a lot is disgusting but hardly makes one morally depraved...chewing gum- an obnoxious habit sometimes, but still. And he hardly makes any efforts to stop them- its as if he wants them to get screwed up. Sort of a mean spirited movie/book. Not that that's bad; at least its a change from the oh so saccharine sweet Disney books. Still, that scene with Mike Teevee running to get himself shrunk the size of the candy bar...Willy Wonka: <bored> "Oh, stop, come back..." You can tell he really doens't give a damn.

I was wondering, too, what nationality they were supposed to be? Violet Buregarde seems a parody of what Brits think of Americans (loud, obnoxious, pushy- her father's a car salesman...) and Augustus Gloop a parody of Germans. (Some xenophobia, here, no? ) I always assumed Charlie would be English too, since Roald Dahl was.

[Lizard]

Originally posted by RailroadShorty

I disagree here. There used to be a ride at Disney World that consisted of a conveyance that moved at a snail's pace while scenery (on film) whipped past, giving the passengers a disorienting sense of high-speed movement. This kind of mind-trip is arguably more freaky than the straightforward thrill of a rollercoaster, for example. I think Wonka was screwing with his guests' perceptions, making them uncertain of what they saw with their own eyes.

I wasn't talking about the potential motivation of the Wonka character in the movie, but why the scene in the movie is fundamentally different from the same incident in the book. It would've been a lot cheaper to make it the way they did in the movie than to film it exactly as portrayed in the book.

[Danielinthewolvesden]

However- each kid/parent team gets disqualified because they disobey the rules. But so do Charly & gramps- what makes their "sin" forgivable?

[Swampwolf]

Originally posted by Danielinthewolvesden
However- each kid/parent team gets disqualified because they disobey the rules. But so do Charly & gramps- what makes their "sin" forgivable?

repentance.

[Kamino Neko]

Originally posted by Kilgore Trout
this scene fits perfectly, especially with wonka's character. he is a sadistic madman. that is all.

Yay! Someone else who gets that!

He's a sadistic, manipulative EVIL little psychopath.

[HeyHomie]

Originally posted by Danielinthewolvesden
However- each kid/parent team gets disqualified because they disobey the rules. But so do Charly & gramps- what makes their "sin" forgivable?

First of all, the other kids do their "sin" after Wonka specifically tells them not to do it. For example, after he tells Augustus Gloop not to jump into the river of chocolate, etc. Granted, by the time Mike shrinks himself, Wonka is treating the kids' disobedience with hostile indifference. As in, [bored]"No. Stop. Don't."[/bored]

Also, each of the other kids' "sins" is related to a character flaw. Veruca=greed, Augustus=gluttony, Mike=obsession with TV, and Violet=uh, too much gum-chewing . Charlie's only character flaw seems to be curiossity; a trait that Wonka can obviously embrace.

[Cabbage]

However- each kid/parent team gets disqualified because they disobey the rules. But so do Charly & gramps- what makes their "sin" forgivable?

It was redemption. Charly & gramps sin was just as damnable as the others, but it wasn't really those sins that Wonka was concerned with. Wonka was really concerned with honesty and loyalty to the chocolate factory--Charly redeemed himself by returning the Everlasting Gobstopper. "So shines a good deed in a weary world."

[Tamerlane]

Gene Wilder's finest and most complete performance, eclipsing even Young Frankenstein . A wonderful film, right down to the glossed over griminess of the Chocolate Factory. You can see real factory walls behind the pretty crepe paper and wondrous sights - an perhaps unintentional, but wonderful comment on many of the characters ans situations. It also helps add to the undertone of menace.

Didn't see any mention of it yet, so I thought I would add that the little poem Wilder recites during the ride is lifted straight from the book ( unlike, I believe, some of the Oompa-Loompa rhymes ). I think this is actually one of the most important scenes in the film, trippy as it is. Because I do think it is that hint of menace that adds such tension to what otherwise would be a straight comedy ( albeit a smirking one ). It's the edginess that elevates this film head and shoulders over more saccharine "family" pictures.

- Tamerlane

[dewt]

Originally posted by rastahomie
Great movie. It was on ABC last night.
I never understood the reason for having such a hideous and disturbing scene in an otherwise uplifting and fun movie. So my question is.... WTF????

If I had to choose adjectives to describe this movie, fun and uplifting would not immediately spring to mind. 'Disturbing'? Most definitely. In fact, on many levels I'd say this is one of the most disturbing movies I've ever seen.

As for hideous, I find the movie packed with different aspects of the hideousness theme. The archetypes of the kids behaviours, for example. I'm a parent, and watching those kids made me want to pull out my hair and light my legs on fire.

oh... Willy Wonka rules. Anyone who feels differently can feel free to step outside.

[Freudian Slit]

Fun and uplifting, and disturbing? Can't it be both? It sort of freaks me out, but at the same time i recall it with fond memories.

Does anyone know the name of the poem he recites? It sounds familiar, like a famous poem or something. I'll have to check out the book if I still own it.

[Hello Again]

I also watched the 30th Anniv edition. I loved the book (and re-read it in my junior year of college, which was only about 5 years go) and found Willy Wonka an eccentric yet lovable character. In the movie he is terrifyingly psychotic. I agree that the fact that movie makes no effort to show that the kids really ARE okay make it look like he has murdered them in cold blood. Just a flat-out disturbing movie. There is also something in the general atmosphere of the movie that creates an ominous feeling. I can't put my finger on it. All I know is, if I were Charlie, I wouldn't be geting into an enclosed space with Wonka at the end of the movie; I'd be running like hell.

[Infovore]

Zoggie, not sure which poem you're talking about, but one famous poem that's quoted in WW is "The Music Makers" by Arthur O'Shaunessy:

The Music Makers

We are the music-makers,
and we are the dreamers of dreams,
wandering by lone sea-breakers,
and sitting by desolate streams;

World-losers and world-forsakers,
on whom the pale moon gleams;
Yet we are the movers and shakers
of the world forever, it seems.

We, in the ages lying
in the buried past of the earth,
built Nineveh with our sighing,
and Babel itself with our mirth;
And o'erthrew them with prophesying
to the old of the new world's worth;
for each age is a dream that is dying,
Or one that is coming to birth.


I don't know if the boat ride quote is original or taken from some other source...I do know, though, that Marilyn Manson borrows it on his album "Portrait of an American Family."

Willy Wonka's been one of my favorite movies since I first saw it in the theater at age 6.

[tsarina]

Does Willy Wonka remind anyone else here of Lewis Carroll? The magical fairy-land, the plays on logic, the strange relationships with small people, even a slight physical resemblance between Carroll and Gene Wilder in the movie (I think so).
... I wouldn't trust him with kids - the way he gazes at Mike Teevee creeps me out.

doom-pi-ty doo....

[jab1]

Originally posted by rastahomie
Also, each of the other kids' "sins" is related to a character flaw. Veruca=greed, Augustus=gluttony, Mike=obsession with TV, and Violet=uh, too much gum-chewing.

Wasn't Violet the annoying girl who rarely stopped talking? Didn't Wonka tell her she'd learn more if she kept her mouth shut and her ears open? She didn't and that was her sin. She's self-centered and doesn't know how annoying she is. How was she punished?

[Ukulele Ike]

She was turned into a giant blueberry.

Let THAT be a leson to all the talkative, self-centered, annoying people out there!

[Protesilaus]

Originally posted by jab1
Wasn't Violet the annoying girl who rarely stopped talking?

They were both sort of like that.

Didn't Wonka tell her she'd learn more if she kept her mouth shut and her ears open? She didn't and that was her sin.

Except the song afterwards is all about gum. Your idea makes more sense.

How was she punished?

She chewed gum that turned her into a giant blueberry.

[rivulus]

Originally posted by sqweels
My assertion is that the tree/cave scene in SW:TESB along with the boat scene in WW is where the hero glimpses his deepest fears.

Mythologically speaking, the boat ride would represent a journey to the underworld (or the subconscious, depending on how you want to look at it) followed by a kind of re-birth. I don't remember the movie very well, or what they see during the ride, but the boat ride itself suggests that some kind of transformation is going on, or that the characters are gaining some kind of insight that is important for the resolution of the story (quest). Then again, I could be talking out of my hat.

Alice's entry into Wonderland is also a descent into the underworld, BTW. Literally.

rivulus

[demanton]

Veruca's line during the boat ride sequence was classic, very telling of the mood of the scene: "What is this? A freak-out?"

[i]there's no earthly way of knowing, which way the rowers they are rowing.....

[Little Nemo]

People, didn't you watch the ending? (Okay, Cabbage did.) Charlie was redeemed and the other kids weren't because he was the only one who returned his Everlasting Gobstopper back to Willy Wonka rather than sell it to Slugworth. By not betraying a trust, even when he had himself been betrayed, he proved he was worthy to be Wonka's successor.

Did they show the chicken decapitation?

Yup, they sure did. In all its glory. I thought my kids (ages 5 and 4) might be freaked out by it, but I'm not sure they really realized what they were seeing.

You'd be surprised. I took my four year old nieces to see Chicken Run last year. When they showed the scene where Mrs Tully picks out a hen who wasn't laying eggs and a few scenes later show her finishing up her Sunday dinner, I was hoping the girls wouldn't make the connection. But Leah looked over and solemnly informed me, "She ate the chicken."

[hazel-rah]

Does Willy Wonka remind anyone else here of Lewis Carroll?

Well, strange relationships with small people is a good analogy. Although Carroll didn't give young boys the time of day... he was only interested in little girls. But I can't seem him terrorizing kids the way Wonka does.

Willy Wonka reminds me of Dr. Who or Jeremy Brett's Sherlock Holmes. They're very condescending, prone to random outbursts and shouting, and not a little unsettling in general but they've got a force of personality such that people seem more than willing to put up with them just to see what they will do. And their hearts are in the right place. Both of them, in the Doctor's case, he he he.

-fh