SDMB's The Deadliest Warrior: Wonder Woman vs Superman

[Superhal]

I was thinking about this the other day after hanging around at Superdickery.com (which has an extensive gallery of WW's BDSM tendencies as well, btw) and I came to realize that Wonder Woman would kick Superman's ass pretty bad in a fight.

In terms of strength, WW is just as strong and invulnerable as Superman. She also has weapons, that because of their magical nature, would harm Superman. Of course, if either got to the other's weakness first, they would win, so to be fair, if either of them were to lose their powers (WW losing her girdle or Superman being exposed to a Red Sun,) then both should lose their powers. In that case, WW is a trained warrior who would likely kill the average human male easily with her bare hands. Superman is famously known as a wuss when de-powered and his fighting style would, in kinder circles, be known as "brawling." Also, if WW was depowered, she is still an Olympic-level athlete. Superman would get his ass kicked by fat truckers.

So, if Wonder Woman would destroy Superman if they were both depowered, then what about when they're both at full strength? If we assume that super strength and invulnerability are equal, then Superman's advantage would only be super speed (a hefty advantage, to be sure.) On the other hand, Superman does not have the ability to see invisible things. WW's invisible jet could turn the tide and even the field vs Superman's super speed. But, WW's magical weapons could injure Superman, as one of his well-known weaknesses is magic.

Imho, I think WW has a clear advantage in weaponry and the definitive victory if they were both depowered, but what really tips the scales is that Superman is stuck with 1940's morals and might actually pull his punches vs WW. WW, being a professional warrior, is not constrained by societal rules about gender roles or polite manner, and thus would defeat Superman through repeated blows to the nads with her magic lasso wrapped around her fist, muay thai style.

Have I missed anything in my analysis? Would WW not be the clear winner?

[Rhythmdvl]

I would have to see WW lose her girdle before answering the question. Even then it might take some time.

[Kamino Neko]

It would be long, and it would be brutal (presuming they're both fighting for real, and have full access to their normal skills, but nothing else). It would not be easy. (Therefor, I have not voted, because there are no options for 'it's be hard fought, but X will win'.)

Clark has the edge on strength and invulnerability.

She's slightly faster, according to some writers, and, depending on the writer, that her powers are mystical in origin may cancel out his abilities (I disagree with that idea, but it has been suggested in canon).

She's MUCH better trained. (Then again, so are much lesser fighters - Clark's a scrapper, at best, who depends on his powers almost entirely.)

Now, the next factor depends partially on WHY the two of them are fighting.

Is it a supercharged sparring match? Is one of them evil, or mind controlled? (And, if so, which one?) Are they amnesiac and not recognizing each other?

Let's assume the last, as that makes the matter easier, since it leaves their regular personalities intact, and, thus, keeps the variables down.

Wondie's more likely to be pragmatic and go for a 'hard' finish, if it looks like that's what it'll take. (They'll both go there, but she'll go there sooner, and angst less about it afterwards.)

In the end, I don't think the power imbalance is enough to decide the fight either way, so her training, and willingness to actually, really hurt him decide it in her favour. But neither of them will come out unhurt, and several city blocks are likely to be reduced to rubble in the fight itself.

[Kamino Neko]

Actually, I have voted...because I just remembered, they have fought, in earnest (he was mind controlled) - and even with Clark's 'safeties' off, and Diana NOT going there (at least not while fighting Clark - she ended up offing Max Lord, who was the one controlling him), Diana won.

After receiving a broken wrist, and seriously tearing her hands up hitting him. (There's a cite for my previous statement about his invulnerability compared to hers.)

So, yeah - win for Diana, but not an easy one, just as I said.

(It was a crossover between the Superbooks and Wonder Woman, circa Infinite Crisis. Can't remember what it was called. [Edit - Sacrifice? I think it may have been Sacrifice.] Rucka wrote it.)

[runner pat]

After the fight, will Wonder Woman survive the make-up sex?

[Kamino Neko]

Not if Lois hears about it...Nobody crosses a Lane and lives. >_>

[The Other Waldo Pepper]

Originally Posted by Tengu

Actually, I have voted...because I just remembered, they have fought, in earnest (he was mind controlled) - and even with Clark's 'safeties' off, and Diana NOT going there (at least not while fighting Clark - she ended up offing Max Lord, who was the one controlling him), Diana won.

After receiving a broken wrist, and seriously tearing her hands up hitting him.

Plus he slugged her so hard she lost consciousness, which is why the piece of Kryptonite she'd been carrying dropped from a limp hand as she plummeted through the atmosphere; she revived in time to loop the lasso at him (which he eluded) and hurl the edge of her magic tiara at his throat (which he didn't). IIRC, he got off a pretty good shot to her face with heat vision along the way, and she boxed his ears pretty good with swings from the heavy bracelets, and when you factor in the aforementioned broken wrist, yeah, it was a danged brutal fight both ways.

[pancakes3]

laser/heat vision, ice breath? of course, once wonderwoman gets her wondergrip on superman's scrotum, game over.

seriously, kryptonite aside, superman would probably beat the snot out of WW.

[Bartman]

The Bruce Timm Justice League also had an episode where the two fought, each convinced that the other was a literal demon. The first half was more or less a draw. Then Supes figured the ruse and got his butt kicked when he started to hold back.

Diana is far more willing to kill, and is vastly better trained. Unless Supes is really willing to kill in the scenario WW should win 90% of the time. And if he is? I would still give her just better than even odds.

[Chronos]

Superman might have the edge in powers, but they're at least comparable there. Where they're not comparable, though, is that Superman is completely unimaginative in the use of his powers (the only thing that stopped me from saying "stupid" is that, when you're Superman, being unimaginative usually works pretty well). That gives Wonder Woman a force multiplier that's larger than the difference in raw power, so she wins.

[astro]

Similar discussion here


If Superman used his powers intelligently she'd be dead pretty fast, but he never does. The impression I've gotten over the years is that strength wise she's pretty equivalent to a Kryptonian woman in terms of raw strength, so if they threw down Superman would still have somewhat lopsided male/female raw strength advantage simply because he's considerably bigger and more massive than her, although there have been some comics where she's around 6'4" and towers over him.

[The Hamster King]

Brock Samson

[Kamino Neko]

Originally Posted by astro

although there have been some comics where she's around 6'4" and towers over him.

Neither of them should tower over the other.

They're both, canonically, over 6'...I think he's slightly taller, but no more than 6'6", and at that point, a couple inches isn't going to be enough to 'tower'. (Batman's also the same height as Superman.) The DCU wiki gives Diana's height as 6' and Clark as 6'3", but I'm not sure where they got those numbers. Still, it's about what I remember for them, so we'll go with it.

And some people are really over-estimating the difference in power levels between the two characters - even when Superman was at the height of his powers, barring the period when Wonder Woman was unpowered completely, she was never so thoroughly outclassed in power level that the other elements, such as the Amazon's martial aspects, wouldn't, at the very least, balance the scales. (Remember, she's not a Badass Normal - she's a Brick, just like he is (and has been a Flying Brick since the 80s). She's just not as hard a brick.)

[DocCathode]

As a long time comic nerd, I vote Wonder Woman.

Dianna was raised to be the leader of a nation of warriors.

Clark was raised to be a farmer.

I also agree with the above comments that Clark never really learned how to fight- just relying on his powers to win.

[Bryan Ekers]

It should be Superman, easily, which is how I voted. In fact, given his combination of strength, speed, flight and invulnerability, he should be unbeatable in a brawl, with only a handful of like-powered characters like Captain Marvel or Black Adam able to fight him to a draw.

Trouble is, Superman is routinely written as incredibly stupid, chatting with the villain instead of restraining him, allowing the latter to open the lead box and expose the kryptonite and such. In this particular hypothetical battle, he'd be trading punches with WW, instead of using his far greater speed to just pound her fifty times in the first second.

[Revenant Threshold]

I think it's unreasonable to assume that without his powers, Superman is essentially a poor brawler. There've been times when he's shown practicing his fighting skill, for those times when he has a equal opponent or if he's depowered. That said, WW definetly still has the edge on that - pretty much trained from birth and living among people who could give her a good fight. Too, WW has the edge in more tactical moves. I agree with those who say that Superman generally doesn't act in a cunning way, because he doesn't have to.

I think i'd have to give it to her, too. He may well be more powerful, and have more useful tools at his disposal, but he doesn't really use them that smartly.

[Kamino Neko]

Originally Posted by Bryan Ekers

In this particular hypothetical battle, he'd be trading punches with WW, instead of using his far greater speed to just pound her fifty times in the first second.

This is what I'm talking about in my last post.

People are talking like Wonder Woman is Batman.

She's not. She is almost Superman's equal in several powers, his better in others.

She is incredibly high powered, just like he is - not as strong, nor as invulnerable as Superman, but not far off*, and she's every bit as fast as him - faster, or at least quicker to react, in fact. She has enhanced senses, just as he does.

She doesn't have his 'ranged' abilities, but she does have ranged weapons, goddess-given superior accuracy with them, and, again, the speed and reflexes to simply not be hit by Superman's ranged attacks.

* About even with an average Kryptonian woman with her strength currently, a bit weaker pre-Crisis, and she heals fast, to close the invulnerability gap a bit.

[Bryan Ekers]

Originally Posted by Tengu

She is incredibly high powered, just like he is - not as strong, nor as invulnerable as Superman, but not far off*, and she's every bit as fast as him - faster, or at least quicker to react, in fact.

I understand she can react to objects moving at bullet-speed, but even after the post-Crisis depowering, I understand Superman's still faster than that. Trouble is, super-speed that should be a decisive factor in these battles (and decisive within the first few tenths of a second, at that) is rarely portrayed consistently. Heck, even if WW is fast enough to defend herself against Superman, she still moves with sluggish speed when battling villains, as does he.

[foolsguinea]

Oy gevalt.

If I'm writing it, Wondy wins, but it's not easy, & she may need to borrow some alien tech. And she wins because I'm on her side.

Unless I'm writing it where Supes is being a dick & just kills her in one shot.

Wondy is not invulnerable. She is strong, fast, fireproof, & favored of Gaia.

[Superhal]

Originally Posted by runner pat

After the fight, will Wonder Woman survive the make-up sex?

There are three invulnerable vaginae in the DC universe that could handle Superman, and luckily Wonder Woman has one of them.

Good luck getting around that invulnerable hymen though.

[Kamino Neko]

Again, when there is canonical claim that there is a significant difference in Superman and Wonder Woman's speed - she's the one who's claimed to be faster.

Superman is fast, indeed. But he's not the gold standard of superspeed.

[Superhal]

Originally Posted by Bryan Ekers

It should be Superman, easily, which is how I voted. In fact, given his combination of strength, speed, flight and invulnerability, he should be unbeatable in a brawl, with only a handful of like-powered characters like Captain Marvel or Black Adam able to fight him to a draw.

Ah, but Wonder Woman has the advantage of magic on her side that is one of Superman's canonical weaknesses.

[pancakes3]

Originally Posted by Bryan Ekers

Heck, even if WW is fast enough to defend herself against Superman, she still moves with sluggish speed when battling villains, as does he.

bothers the heck out of me. a man who can fly so fast he travels BACK IN TIME is only compared with the speed of a mere bullet.

[Tamerlane]

Originally Posted by Superhal

Ah, but Wonder Woman has the advantage of magic on her side that is one of Superman's canonical weaknesses.

Exactly. She just has to keep pounding him with these until Superman is just so much super-tough hamburger.

[Chronos]

There are three invulnerable vaginae in the DC universe that could handle Superman, and luckily Wonder Woman has one of them.

And isn't she the only one not related to him, too?

[TWDuke]

Originally Posted by pancakes3

bothers the heck out of me. a man who can fly so fast he travels BACK IN TIME is only compared with the speed of a mere bullet.

"Faster than a speeding bullet, more powerful than a locomotive, and able to leap tall buildings in a single bound" is a ~70-year-old phrase that more or less accurately described Superman's power level when it was coined. If it's used at all know, it's out of a sense of tradition.

[Bryan Ekers]

Originally Posted by TWDuke

"Faster than a speeding bullet, more powerful than a locomotive, and able to leap tall buildings in a single bound" is a ~70-year-old phrase that more or less accurately described Superman's power level when it was coined.

Actually, when he started flying (almost immediately, since jumping around like a giant grasshopper is kinda gay), the Fleischer/Famous cartoons (1941-43, available on YouTube and highly recommended) introduced variations on the phrase, including replacing "tall building" with "able to soar higher than any plane". Some of the later toons started with "Faster than a streak of light! More powerful than the pounding surf! Mightier than a whirling hurricane!"

[Bosda Di'Chi of Tricor]

Superman could beat her, Batman could beat her...hell, the only JLA Member who could not beat her is Green Arrow.

And they give plastic versions of his signature weapon away with Happy Meals, so he's a wuss.

[D_Odds]

My take...
Strength: Edge to Superman
Invulnerability: Edge to Superman
Raw Speed: Significant edge to Superman
Ability to operate at top speed: Significant edge to Wonder Woman
Martial Prowess: Significant edge to Wonder Woman
Ranged Attacks: Edge to Superman
Scope of Powers: Edge to Superman
Ruthlessness: Significant edge to Wonder Woman
X-Factor: Edge to Wonder Woman (magic items)

Running multiple simulations through the battle computer, I have WW beating Superman by a 58-to-42 margin. Kal-El has the advantage when he uses a broader range of his powers and can keep much of the battle out of hand-to-hand, but as noted, he falls prey too easily to HtH combat, where Diana's prowess and willingness to 'go the extra mile' win out.

[Superhal]

Originally Posted by Chronos

And isn't she the only one not related to him, too?

Nah, Power Girl is from Earth 2 so it's all good. He could even nail Supergirl if he wanted to in some countries.

[The Man In Black]

If the info here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wonder_Woman is correct, I do not even see how there is a question. Superman would win with little effort, if he really was out to win the fight that is. Her skin is hard, but can be cut by sharp objects. So she is nowhere near the level of Superman.

[Superhal]

Originally Posted by The Man In Black

If the info here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wonder_Woman is correct, I do not even see how there is a question. Superman would win with little effort, if he really was out to win the fight that is. Her skin is hard, but can be cut by sharp objects. So she is nowhere near the level of Superman.

Same article, but check "post crisis powers."

[casdave]

One of the reasons that the writers make Superman out to be dumb is just to get a story.

If they wrote him as truly invulnerable, then every episode would be much more boring, so they have him being a bit dumb, or they inflate his weaknessess.

Superman isn't mentally dumb, and oftentimes he will win out becuase he uses a strategy that only comes to fruition in the last three or four frames, when he suddenly reveals to he reader something that he figured out in the first four frames.

He has a lot of technical knowledge, he was very well educated from materials that were bequeathed to him.

I have noted a few times that he is very deceptive, you don't always know what angle he is working on, which is why there is so much material for the 'Superman is a dick' website - in essence that website is dedicated to his ability to appear as one thing, whilst doing quite something else - in other words, Superman takes a longer term view, he is crafty, and he is clever and willing to take some knocks to achieve his objective.

[The Man In Black]

Originally Posted by Superhal

Same article, but check "post crisis powers."

I did, did you?

"While not invulnerable, she is capable of withstanding great concussive force,[25] shrugging off high-powered rifle fire with some pain but little injury,[29] being knocked through a building, and even surviving a warp-core explosion.[30] She is durable enough to survive the rigors of space until she runs out of breath. While her superhuman strength affords her great resistance to blunt-force trauma, her skin can be cut by weapons if they are sharp enough."

That is her post crisis powers. Superman would tear her apart.