Why do British people make fun of people with red "ginger" hair?

[Morbo]

Saw this yet again on Top Gear last night, (Rupert Grint was the star in the resaonably priced car on the episode that just aired on BBC America), and it reminded me that I'd been meaning to ask this before.

What's up with all the ginger jokes? I've seen this countless times, and honestly, I don't recall ever seeing or hearing someone from the US make fun of someone for being a redhead.

I'm sure there's a logical reason for it that I'm just not getting...

[elmwood]

A WAG: could it be a masked, politically correct way to make fun of the Irish?

[MichaelEmouse]

Redheads are in significant numbers in the UK + sexist/racist/national jokes are liable to offend + Britons like taking the piss out of people.


That and gingers don't feel pain.

[An Gadaí]

Originally Posted by elmwood

A WAG: could it be a masked, politically correct way to make fun of the Irish?

Red-headedness is more prevalent amongst Scots people. It might be related to some lingering anti-"Celtic" sentiment.

[Mahaloth]

I've noticed this with my 7th Graders in America. For them, it started back when that Ginger episode of South Park aired(2005).

[Peter Morris]

Rhyming slang. As in nine-bob note.

[An Arky]

Because they're assholes. The limeys who do it, that is.

[Fridgemagnet]

Originally Posted by An Arky

Because they're assholes. The limeys who do it, that is.

Arseholes then.

It's the last acceptable face of racism (though not against any nationality or culture), and it's still fairly common in the UK despite living in relatively enlightened times. I'm not convinced it's an anti-Scottish/Irish thing as English and Welsh redheads get just as much grief. It's more of a case of bonding through persecution of an Other, and begins at an early age, as soon as children can start taunting their peers essentially. Ginger kids are easy to spot from a distance, and at closer range can be teased for their freckly skin and tendency towards skin cancer; it's like shooting fish in a barrel, and bullys like easy targets.

I'm surprised (and somewhat ashamed) to hear this seems to be a solely British prejudice, though South Park seem to have picked up on it (Mahaloth, below) as I recall from the original SP movie that the luckless Kenny is ginger. I wonder if a general population require a minority to be a certain size before the prejudice begins? Do albinos get the same grief?

For the record, my hair is brown, though I've long held a sneaking suspicion that I carry the 'tragic ginger gene', and indeed this was confirmed when I grew a beard a few years ago that was made up of all sorts of colours, including a few ginger whiskers here and there. It seems I'm a tabby.

[dangermom]

Red hair used to be considered ugly, on this side of the pond as well. Remember Anne Shirley's agonies over her red hair? My great-grandmother cut her own braids off when she was a little girl rather than be seen in town with red hair. I suppose the prejudice has hung on longer in the UK and turned into the weird ginger-tormenting thing.

My own little ginger girl has hair of a beautiful and unusual shade. She is self-conscious about it because everyone comments on it and she doesn't like that, but she knows that everyone thinks it's beautiful. Red hair is pretty much universally admired these days in the US/Canada.

[sweeteviljesus]

Originally Posted by Fridgemagnet

as I recall from the original SP movie that the luckless Kenny is ginger.

Kenny is blonde. IIRC, Kyle is the redhead. FWIW, so am I.

Rob

[sisu]

Rangas rock! Yeah I think it is a carry over from when redheads were thought to be scottish. But as we know the readheads origanlly were vikings.

[falcotron]

Originally Posted by Fridgemagnet

I'm surprised (and somewhat ashamed) to hear this seems to be a solely British prejudice

The word "ginger" itself seems to have been confined to the UK and recent colonies* until that South Park episode.

But, even without the word, the prejudice used to be common in the US, or at least the parts of it with large Irish populations. My grandfather, growing up in Baltimore in the 1930s, got picked on more for being a redhead than for being a Jew. (I wonder if that explains why he married a redheaded gentile?)

And, if it makes you feel any better about your fellow Brits, I think the eastern US anti-redhead prejudice was much more closely linked to anti-Irish racism than in the UK.


* When I was in Pune, India, a few years ago, there was a redheaded American girl in the same hotel. People used the word "ginger" to describe her. But it didn't seem to have any pejorative connotations, and the overall reaction seemed to be more that everyone wanted to sleep with her than anything negative. Which was still annoying for her, of course.

[The Second Stone]

Because we redheads are smart, beautiful perverts.

[MrFloppy]

Ginger is (Cockney) rhyming slang for a gay man.

Ginger Beer = Queer. Geddit?

So while I didn't hear the particular Top Gear episode, a person from the other side of the pond, calling someone else 'Ginger' may not be in reference to other person's hair.

[Wile E]

Originally Posted by MichaelEmouse

Redheads are in significant numbers in the UK + sexist/racist/national jokes are liable to offend + Britons like taking the piss out of people.


That and gingers don't feel pain.

Actually, redheads feel more pain.

Cite: http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/0...ing-a-redhead/

[falcotron]

Originally Posted by MrFloppy

Ginger is (Cockney) rhyming slang for a gay man.

Ginger Beer = Queer. Geddit?

So while I didn't hear the particular Top Gear episode, a person from the other side of the pond, calling someone else 'Ginger' may not be in reference to other person's hair.

Which side of Amy Pond now?

[penultima thule]

In the Antipodes the term of choice is "ranga", as derived from orangutan.
Two of my kids are rangas. More chiacking than taking the piss, though
IMO the poms make more of a national sport of that than we do.

In days gone by the monicker was "Bluey" for guys and "Ginger" for girls.

[Hilarity N. Suze]

I guess you have never heard of blonde jokes?

[voltaire]

Originally Posted by Morbo

What's up with all the ginger jokes? I've seen this countless times, and honestly, I don't recall ever seeing or hearing someone from the US make fun of someone for being a redhead.

So what, you've never heard the phrase "beat like a red-headed step-child"?

[Kolak of Twilo]

Originally Posted by dangermom

My own little ginger girl has hair of a beautiful and unusual shade.

I just had to say - ADORABLE.

[El Presidente]

I dont think teasing of redheads (itself probably a derogatory term) is isolated strictly to the Isles.

In the United States it can be pretty bad for males. They grow up with nicknames like "Red" and called "Carrot -top". Also the phrase "I was treated like a red-headed step-child" is considered derogatory of redheads.

Redheads typically have pale skin, and burn easily in the sun. My father was a red head, and always had to cover up when going outside. I think there is an unfair perception that redheaded males are a little weaker than other males (and Im sure redheads such as Napoleon, Lenin and Thomas Jefferson would beg to differ).

On the female side, I'm sure there is teasing, but at an older age, I would argue a pretty red headed woman is going to attract as much male attention as a blonde. I dated a very pretty red head freshman in college. There's fewer things prettier than a good looking woman with natural red hair.

[panamajack]

Every time I hear about poking fun at "gingers" I can't help but think of the (extremely disturbing and graphic) video for MIA's "Born Free".

SPOILER:

It's an alternate-universe America where redheaded kids are rounded up and forced to walk through minefields for no apparent reason.

http://vimeo.com/11219730
You can watch it there, if you really want to.

It's not really clear if it's meant to be anti-genocide, anti-American, anti-anti-ginger, or what. It's got elements of all of those, and whatever you make of it, it's hard to take.

[An Gadaí]

Panamajack it sounds similar to this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bUhLIjlTNSk

[dzeiger]

Isn't there a general European historical basis of redhead prosecution, with reports of Judas being a redhead, connections to witches/vampires, etc? Presumably more prevalent in areas where redheads are much less common, like southern Europe/Balkan areas, but if the idea migrated up I could see how it could combine with Irish/Scottish rivalries in England.

[Wendell Wagner]

While it's true that there has been from time to time unofficial prejudice against redheads in the U.S. (just as there has been unofficial prejudice against almost any other random group you can think of), posters in this thread are obscuring the issue when they downplay the taunting of redheads in the U.K. as if it were no more than in the U.S. The taunting of redheads in the U.K. is really rather bizarre, and any American who hasn't been there would never believe it. It's not an ethnic group thing. It's just a chance for immature bullies to have some reason to torture their victims. It's not, of course, anything like an official prejudice, and it's not even a majority opinion. It's just something that childish bullies in the U.K. have picked up on for some inexplicable reason:

Incidentally, you might enjoy this clip from the Catherine Tate show:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bUhLIjlTNSk

Oh, heck, it was already posted two posts ago.

[Giggsy]

I was born and bred in England ( Yorkshire ) My mother had red hair and all of her life she was affectionately known as "Ginger" - It was not used as a racial remark - in fact quite the opposite - My daughter who was born in Canada has bright red hair and as far as I know the only person who ever calls her "Ginger" is me - This is the first time I have ever heard of red haired people being stigmatized - Red headed women in particular are known for their fiery temperament and I can attest to that cos once mother lost her temper "watch out " The red hair gene is actually from the Viking or Scandinavian race who plundered the northern parts of England and Scotland for centuries - Eventually they settled their and assimilated with the indigenous population -

[Morbo]

Originally Posted by MrFloppy

So while I didn't hear the particular Top Gear episode, a person from the other side of the pond, calling someone else 'Ginger' may not be in reference to other person's hair.

Oh, I've heard it more than that from the BBC. IIRC, Catherine Tate did many sketches about it. (ETA: curse my edit window open too long ways)

Originally Posted by voltaire

So what, you've never heard the phrase "beat like a red-headed step-child"?

Uh...nope. I grew up in the Midwest and am 40 years old. Honesltly, I've never heard that expression before. There was enough racism to go around in St. Louis, though - maybe that had something to do with it? IOW, maybe the inherent racism of my hometown colored my perc....eh, nevermind.

[Wendell Wagner]

Giggsy writes:

> Red headed women in particular are known for their fiery temperament

Again, this is prejudice. There's no proof of any such thing.

[Capt. Ridley's Shooting Party]

Uhh, everybody gets the piss taken out of them for one reason or the other.

[Colophon]

Red-headed girls are hot, feisty, sassy, etc.

Red-headed boys are milk-skinned weaklings.

It's just the way it is.


(BTW when used as a term of abuse, "ginger" is pronounced to rhyme with "singer", and with a hard initial G. I have no idea why.)

[Ximenean]

Originally Posted by Capt. Ridley's Shooting Party

Uhh, everybody gets the piss taken out of them for one reason or the other.

Yeah, to equate this minor phenomenon with racism is going a bit far. It's teasing. I can see that it could still be annoying, even distressing, to the victims, but let's keep things in perspective. The Catherine Tate sketch is no doubt based on her experience as a victim of the teasing from time to time, but it's also *joking* that ginger-ism is as bad as other -isms.

[Novelty Bobble]

You are all overthinking it waaaaaaaaaay too much.
It is nothing to do with racism, The UK is such a mongrel nation that it would be meaningless.
Also, the ginger=queer slang is true but if you call a ginger person "ginger" it does not refer to that in any way. It really is all about hair colour.

It is just because they are "unusual" and "different" enough for kids to notice and take the piss. Kids are cruel and adults are not any better but most of the time it is merely gentle ribbing.

It is no different from me being made fun of for having a strong north-eastern accent. Multiple comedy characters use the "thick northerner" for comedy effect.....no harm done, it is just the way we British people are.

Incidentally, my son has hints of ginger in his hair, (to the point where we considered having him tested for it) and I have ginger in me too. Thankfully it is in my beard so I only have to shave to hide my shame.

Also, I recall my first really serious girlfriend at age 14. She was a redhead and immense fun but in many ways she fitted the redhead stereotype and ultimately proved far too much to handle for a young, uncomplicated chap like me.......happy times though!

[Capt. Ridley's Shooting Party]

Originally Posted by Ximenean

Yeah, to equate this minor phenomenon with racism is going a bit far. It's teasing. I can see that it could still be annoying, even distressing, to the victims, but let's keep things in perspective. The Catherine Tate sketch is no doubt based on her experience as a victim of the teasing from time to time, but it's also *joking* that ginger-ism is as bad as other -isms.

Yeah, it's teasing. I had reddish hair (which has now darkened, though I still have a ginger beard which is an inviting target for my friends) and freckles when young. I got teased for it. Some of my friends had glasses. They got teased for that. Some were bad at sport. They got teased for that. Some were mard. They got teased for that. etc. etc.

It's just the way it is in Britain.

[falcotron]

Originally Posted by Wendell Wagner

While it's true that there has been from time to time unofficial prejudice against redheads in the U.S. (just as there has been unofficial prejudice against almost any other random group you can think of), posters in this thread are obscuring the issue when they downplay the taunting of redheads in the U.K. as if it were no more than in the U.S.

I think that depends on how old those Americans are and where they're from. Growing up in LA in the 80s, I never saw any serious prejudice at all, just the occasional joking teasing between friends. But, as I said, my grandfather, growing up in Baltimore in the 30s, had a totally different experience--again, he always said he faced more taunts and bullying for his red hair than for being Jewish. So, I think he'd understand what people face today in the UK, but I'm pretty sure I wouldn't.*


* Especially since, unlike him, I'm not ginger. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

[Manda JO]

As far as the proverbial red-headed stepchild goes, I always understood that the reason he got beaten was that he was a very visible reminder that there had been another man at some point--presumably the source of the red hair.

[tagos]

Originally Posted by Manda JO

As far as the proverbial red-headed stepchild goes, I always understood that the reason he got beaten was that he was a very visible reminder that there had been another man at some point--presumably the source of the red hair.

As a rare and recessive gene, red hair can resurface after several generations and I have a memory of reading that in the olden days this indicated bastardry as no one in the extended family had red hair.

[robert_columbia]

Originally Posted by dangermom

Red hair used to be considered ugly, on this side of the pond as well. Remember Anne Shirley's agonies over her red hair?

Which makes me suspect that if it was ethnic prejudice, at least in L. M. Montgomery's mind, it was anti-Irish rather than anti-Scottish, since that region of Canada is like 90% Scottish.

[Mertyn86]

Just to add to all the other responses, I'm a 24 year old English man currently dating a 'ginger'.

She totally lives up to the fiery stereotype. I often joke with her that if we have kids and one of them is ginger it'll be fine as long as it’s a girl, if it’s a boy he’s getting adopted! So yes I'd say ginger girls are fine, it’s the boys who get most of the stick over here...

In the UK it really is just a case of light hearted fun, for example you hear of hate crimes based on race a lot, but I'm pretty sure I've never heard of someone being attacked for having ginger hair (I’m sure someone will dig an example up now...)

Oh I live just outside London, cockney is hardly used anymore, and I'm pretty sure no one would ever use the term ginger as slang for gay.

[Mertyn86]

Missed the editing window, looks like there is at least one case of a ginger hate crime

http://women.timesonline.co.uk/tol/l...cle1873119.ece

Looks like anything is possible, but I stand by my assertion that the vast majority of people in the UK really don't feel strongly enough about ginger people to physically harm or discriminate against them - hence why the article makes such a point of it being a ginger hate crime i guess!

[Elendil's Heir]

Originally Posted by dangermom

...My own little ginger girl has hair of a beautiful and unusual shade. She is self-conscious about it because everyone comments on it and she doesn't like that, but she knows that everyone thinks it's beautiful. Red hair is pretty much universally admired these days in the US/Canada.

Cute little girl! One of our boys has hair almost exactly that color. We ask from time to time if anyone has given him a hard time because of his hair. He says no, and I believe him, but kids will be kids - they can be pretty mean. I've read elsewhere that teasing for red or ginger hair tends to be harsher in the UK than in the US. There does seem to be a much greater awareness of, and public condemnation of, bullying here now than there was when I was a kid.

[Hello Again]

"Beaten like a redheaded stepchild" is just one formation of "beaten like [a thing that doesn't belong to you]" also seen in "beaten like a rented mule."

I've never noticed any anti-redhead-ism growing up (I have red hair). More traumatizing was being associated with that saccharine play "Annie" which was on Broadway when I was a little redheaded girl. UGH!

I would say blondes are the more-insulted hair color in the US, with the insults revolving around their alleged stupidity.

I'm pretty sure "South Park" kids picked up their anti-ginger sentiment from Terrence & Phillip, who, as we all know are Canadian. The term "ginger" was only common among Anglophiles before then.

[blush RedTail]

i'm a redhead (in the US). Was bright orange when young and it has darkened as i age, but is still red. i came from a family of redheads - my brother & sisters and both parents had it so i never knew red hair was unusual until i was older. i remember asking my sister if she liked having red hair - and she told me she loved it as she liked being different. From that moment on, i was proud of it. i'd really recommend to any of you that have a child/grand child with redhair to instill the same pride in it (especially if they are the only one in the family with it.) They should never feel shame for 'being different'. And as a result, i've always taken the teasing and attention as fun. i like being different.

[Staggerlee]

Originally Posted by Manda JO

As far as the proverbial red-headed stepchild goes, I always understood that the reason he got beaten was that he was a very visible reminder that there had been another man at some point--presumably the source of the red hair.

Like this for instance - http://www.conspiracyplanet.com/chan...m?channelid=41 .

[SciFiSam]

It's only really for boys, not girls, and it varies from banter between mates to actual nastiness, with most of it being banter. You know the way boys will trade insults for fun? Sometimes they might use ginger as an insult for that, but it doesn't have any more real meaning than Your Mum jokes.

However, I did work at one school where a redheaded boy was teased constantly for his hair colour - and I mean he couldn't do anything, say anything, go anywhere without people calling names after him. Kids refused to sit with the ginger. He'd open his mouth to say something and be drowned out by shouts of 'ginger.'

There was nothing at all else unusual about him, except that he was also the only white kid in the class, so to me it smacked strongly of racism. None of the teachers (I was a student teacher) took it seriously, because usually it is just friendly teasing, but in his case it wasn't.

[dangermom]

Originally Posted by robert_andrews

Which makes me suspect that if it was ethnic prejudice, at least in L. M. Montgomery's mind, it was anti-Irish rather than anti-Scottish, since that region of Canada is like 90% Scottish.

Hm, Anne was Presbyterian...anyway AFAIK it wasn't just eastern Canada, it was everywhere; red hair was just considered to be ugly.

[koufax]

My brown haired brother would constantly say to me "red on the head like the tip of a dog's dick"

He has mellowed over the years, thank god.

A few years ago I was in an office and the receptionist was a VERY hot young red headed woman. I asked her if all her brothers and sisters had red hair and she replied sarcastically. "no, they all have blonde hair. I'm the lucky one, at least that is what my mother would always tell me."

Another attractive young woman told me she hated it because she stood out and always seemed to always get the blame at school from teachers.

I am pretty weird to begin with so I would probably be fucked up with dark hair and a great tan, but having bright orange hair (it is now dark in my old age) fucked me up as a kid. Catholic school didn't help.

I was in the Army for three years and in one of the classes this asshole instructor kept calling me "pinky" which embarrassed the hell out of me.

I switched high schools in my senior year to get away from these two "friends" who fucked with me constantly about it.

When my wife was pregnant (unplanned) , I would worry constantly about having a red headed kid. She has blond hair and it was a great relief. I am almost ashamed to admit that.

The good news is I had a girlfriend who was very attractive (and very insecure) and I was telling her how fucked up it was to grow up with red hair and she looked at me and said " I LIKE red hair." I was shocked, to be honest.

And recently I had a young woman working for me who had a red haired boyfriend and she was telling me how much she liked it. Like I said , mine is dark now and she didn't believe me when I said I had hair the same color when I was his age.

So people do fuck with "gingies", but they fuck with short people, very tall people, overweight people and etc etc etc etc etc etc

But damn, this brought back some bad memories.

[njtt]

I was born in Britain and lived through most of the 1950s, '60s, '70s and '80's there. (Yeah, I'm old, what about it?) The word ginger (as an adjective) was certainly in common use to describe redheads then, but I do not remember ever noticing or hearing about redheads suffering from prejudice or teasing any more than anybody else might. I now live in the USA, but I still make some efforts to keep up with what is going in British culture. Via the internet, I listen to quite a lot of BBC radio and sometimes look at online British newspapers and magazines, and, just in the last few years I have definitely started hearing a lot of jokes, often quite mean, and other prejudicial remarks about "gingers," and stories about them being picked on. Frankly, I have found it rather disturbing, with much nastier undertones than blonde jokes (I am neither a blond nor a redhead myself).

I cannot say that none of this ever happened before, but it seems to have grown enormously quite recently. I doubt very much whether it has anything to do with anti-Irish prejudice. Although that certainly exists, I know of no other signs or reasons why it should have markedly increased recently. My guess is that this one of one of those "memes," silly fads (such as catchphrases) that seem to catch on for no particular reason, probably started by a joke in some comedy TV show or comic stand-up act. As I do not actually live in Britain, I can't say exactly who may have started it. Perhaps someone who still lives there might know. I can only hope that it dies out as quickly as it seems to have arisen.

It is possible, even, that it actually started with the "joke" in South Park, which given the unpredictability of fads, might have somehow caught on in Britain even though it did not (or not nearly so much) in America. However, as it seems to be so much more of a British phenomenon, it seems more likely that it started with some British joker, and that South Park was just picking up the trend from there.

[Wile E]

Interesting that The Doctor actually wants to be Ginger ("still not Ginger) but even though he usually has a British accent, technically he's an alien.

[Colophon]

Originally Posted by njtt

It is possible, even, that it actually started with the "joke" in South Park, which given the unpredictability of fads, might have somehow caught on in Britain even though it did not (or not nearly so much) in America. However, as it seems to be so much more of a British phenomenon, it seems more likely that it started with some British joker, and that South Park was just picking up the trend from there.

No, it definitely goes back further than that. I was at school in the 1980s and the ginger kids came in for plenty of stick. "Duracell" was the standard nickname in those days. (Duracells, for anyone not familiar with them.)

[Blank Slate]

Ginger is an anagram of nigger. I think that makes it clear what's going on over there.