On the etymology of "sucks"

[Aspidistra]

I've been reading Narnia books to my daughter recently, and midway through Prince Caspian I was quite startled to see, in among all the "By Jove"s and "Great Scott"s and the like, the following line:

(context: Edmund explaining why he, and not Peter, should be the one to take on a fencing match with another character)

"It will be more of a sucks for him if I win, and less of a let-down for us all if I fail"

That's almost modern slang there. Except that a 2010 character would probably say "will suck more" rather than "more of a sucks". But clearly, the derivation of the slang that he's using there can't be the same as the modern slang "sucks" - not in a 1950s kids book anyway!

So what does it mean? What's the derivation? Anyone here old enough to remember 1950's British slang first time around?

[samclem]

Originally Posted by OED

11. pl. as int. Used as an expression of contempt, chiefly by children. Also in phr. sucks to you and varr. slang.

1913 C. MACKENZIE Sinister Street I. I. vii. 98 This kid's in our army, so sucks! 1922 F. HAMILTON P.J.: Secret Service Boy iv. 178 ‘S’, he announced, ‘u,c,k,s,t,o,y,o,u.’ 1935 N. MITCHISON We have been Warned I. 28 Brian is a baby. Oh sucks, oh sucks on Brian. 1945 E. WAUGH Brideshead Revisited II. v. 287 It's great sucks to Bridey. 1952 ‘C. BRAND’ London Particular xv. 191 A most regretable air of sucks to you. 1968 Melody Maker 30 Nov. 24/5 This is a rotten recordyah boo and sucks. 1974 Times 4 Mar. 9/5 Sucks boo, then, with acting like this, to that new National Theatre down the road. 1978 ‘J. LYMINGTON’ Waking of Stone ii. 45 ‘Sucks to you!’ she said..tossing her head so her pigtails swung. 1983 Listener 19 May 11/1 The council treated the urbane Mr Cook to the politician's equivalent of ‘Yah, boo, sucks’.

.

Rather British.

[Wendell Wagner]

I just checked the OED (the Oxford English Dictionary) and one of the definitions for the term "sucks" is that it's used as either an interjection or a noun in exactly the sense you describe. Furthermore, it was mostly a children's term. The examples given make it clear that it wasn't thought of being obscene, just childish. I think from the examples it was mostly a British term. The entry describes it as possibly being a shorter version of "sucks to you" which has the same meaning, both as in interjection or as a noun.

[Aspidistra]

Now that you mention it, I do remember my dad using "Yah boo sucks" on various occasions.

As an expression, it's still kind of lacking in the "making sense" department though...

[Jormungandr]

I remember being told two origins of it in the 80s-90s. One origin is that it's a shorten form of "go suck some eggs" or other various objects. That would go with the children's saying

The second origin is that it has to do with oral sex. To get on one's knees and "suck" was humiliating. So, it could be the children's variant of "blow me."

[ZipperJJ]

Originally Posted by samclem

.

Rather British.

They left out the best one! "Sucks to your asth-mar!" - Lord of the Flies

[Chefguy]

Originally Posted by Jormungandr

I remember being told two origins of it in the 80s-90s. One origin is that it's a shorten form of "go suck some eggs" or other various objects. That would go with the children's saying

The second origin is that it has to do with oral sex. To get on one's knees and "suck" was humiliating. So, it could be the children's variant of "blow me."

Obligatory Johnny Cash link.

[Dewey Finn]

Originally Posted by Jormungandr

The second origin is that it has to do with oral sex. To get on one's knees and "suck" was humiliating. So, it could be the children's variant of "blow me."

I used to play the videogame SimCity a lot. In one version of the game, there was a text crawl on the bottom of the screen containing citizen complaints. If you set the tax rate too high, one of the complaints was "taxes suck." Someone complained on one of the official or unofficial forums about the game that the language was inappropriate.

[kenobi 65]

Originally Posted by ZipperJJ

They left out the best one! "Sucks to your asth-mar!" - Lord of the Flies

You beat me to it!

[Blake]

Originally Posted by Aspidistra

But clearly, the derivation of the slang that he's using there can't be the same as the modern slang "sucks" - not in a 1950s kids book anyway!

And what do you think the derivation the modern slang "sucks" is?

[Diogenes the Cynic]

Originally Posted by ZipperJJ

They left out the best one! "Sucks to your asth-mar!" - Lord of the Flies

That's the first thing I thought of too.

[John DiFool]

In an old Three Stooges short (not sure which one since it's just a clip I found), Curly says, "If at first you don't succeed, keep on sucking until you do succeed!" In retrospect it seems like a pun of a sort, and given the character inveterate naivete, it may not have been intended precisely as the modern idiom is now. Since Jerome Howard died in 1952, it has to have come from before then obviously.

[Thudlow Boink]

Originally Posted by Aspidistra

"It will be more of a sucks for him if I win, and less of a let-down for us all if I fail"

That's almost modern slang there. Except that a 2010 character would probably say "will suck more" rather than "more of a sucks". But clearly, the derivation of the slang that he's using there can't be the same as the modern slang "sucks" - not in a 1950s kids book anyway!

Originally Posted by ZipperJJ

They left out the best one! "Sucks to your asth-mar!" - Lord of the Flies

Could it be a variant of "shucks"?

[Indistinguishable]

Although many assume the modern slang "sucks" is derived from fellatio, my impression is that this is not at all actually clear from the etymological evidence. It is quite possible that the phrase derived elsewise, and only later acquired the sexual connotations.

[Damfino]

The phrase "Yar! Sucks! Boo!" as a derogatory expression occurs frequently in the Billy Bunter school stories by Frank Richards. I doubt any sexual connotation is implied.

[J.D.G]

From the Online Etymology Dictionary:

Suck
O.E. sucan, from PIE root *sug-/*suk- of imitative origin (cf. O.S., O.H.G. sugan, O.N. suga, M.Du. sughen, Du. zuigen, Ger. saugen "to suck;" L. sugere "to suck," succus "juice, sap;" O.Ir. sugim, Welsh sugno "to suck"). Meaning "do fellatio" is first recorded 1928. Slang sense of "be contemptible" first attested 1971 (the underlying notion is of fellatio). Suck eggs is from 1906. Suck hind tit "be inferior" is Amer.Eng. slang first recorded 1940.

[Johnny L.A.]

Originally Posted by ZipperJJ

They left out the best one! "Sucks to your asth-mar!" - Lord of the Flies

Originally Posted by kenobi 65

You beat me to it!

First thing I thought of.

Only, I thought he said 'arse mar'.

[njtt]

There seem to be two quite different slang meanings of "sucks" involved here. "You suck," means something like you are disgusting (or mean, or horrible). "Sucks to you," (or "Yah, boo sucks," and other variants) means something like I don't care about you or what you say. It seems perfectly plausible to me that these two usages might have quite unconnected origins, and that the first (which is now, surely, much more common) has to do with oral sex.

[Civil Guy]

Hmm... in the absence of legitimate etymology, other than the direct Oxford English Dictionary and Online Etymology Dictionary references... it seems sensible to me that 'sucking' could be thought demeaning even if not applied to oral sex. And ya know, I'm not sure why anyone practicing fellatio would deserve contempt. Gratitude, yes, but contempt?

Chicken eggs are sucked by grandmas, and babes suck at mother's breast; both signs / conditions of fraility and weakness. I bet that where "that sucks" comes from originally, somehow or other.

[Aspidistra]

Originally Posted by Blake

And what do you think the derivation the modern slang "sucks" is?

I was assuming an oral sex component of the origin. My evidence would be that when people are trying to intensify their use of the term they often turn to things like "sucks donkey cock" or "sucks the sweat off a dead man's balls". I admit I have no particular evidence that these elements were present when the term was originated, but they seem to go together quite naturally in many people's minds.

[Blake]

Originally Posted by Aspidistra

I was assuming an oral sex component of the origin. My evidence would be that when people are trying to intensify their use of the term they often turn to things like "sucks donkey cock" or "sucks the sweat off a dead man's balls". I admit I have no particular evidence that these elements were present when the term was originated, but they seem to go together quite naturally in many people's minds.

Yes, so does "this blows", and we have fair certainty that the term originated as "this blows chunks", and it too is now used in phrases such as "blows goats".

I suspect that as society became cruder, or at least more tolerant of crudity in children, a lot of older and politer words became corrupted into crude form. "Insult-head" would be another example, starting out with mild insults such as "pumpkin head" and degenerating into "dick head". Despite that, dickhead doesn't refer to the head of a penis, though they seem to go together quite naturally.

[AboutAsWeirdAsYouCanGet]

On a related note, where does the term " go suck an egg come from? What the heck is egg sucking anyway? I remember Miss Rachel Lynde in Anne of Green Gables telling Marilla about an adopted boy who used to suck eggs.

[Manduck]

Originally Posted by AboutAsWeirdAsYouCanGet

On a related note, where does the term " go suck an egg come from? What the heck is egg sucking anyway? I remember Miss Rachel Lynde in Anne of Green Gables telling Marilla about an adopted boy who used to suck eggs.

You poke a hole in each end of an egg and suck the contents out through one of them. It's a real thing that people can do if they like raw egg.

[Johnny L.A.]

Originally Posted by AboutAsWeirdAsYouCanGet

On a related note, where does the term " go suck an egg come from? What the heck is egg sucking anyway? I remember Miss Rachel Lynde in Anne of Green Gables telling Marilla about an adopted boy who used to suck eggs.

I'd been thinking about starting a thread asking where 'Don't try to teach your grandmother how to suck eggs!' comes from. So since you brought up sucking eggs, I'll ask in this thread.

Manduck says it's a real thing. But did the serious practice start because of the phrase? Or did the phrase come from egg-suckers? The way I read it, the phrase means 'You're attempting to instruct someone who knows much more about the subject than you do.' Presumably it would be just as useless to attempt to instruct one's grandmother to suck eggs. But is it futile because Grandma already knows how to poke holes in an egg and suck it down? (Assume she enjoys raw egg.) Or is it because Grandma is too experienced to fall for the prank of trying to make her eat a raw egg? (Assume that people don't generally like eating raw eggs.)

[Thudlow Boink]

Originally Posted by AboutAsWeirdAsYouCanGet

On a related note, where does the term " go suck an egg come from? What the heck is egg sucking anyway?

Meaning of "Suck Eggs"

[sqweels]

The modern usage is clearly short for "this sucks cock", meaning it's just as bad as if it were a homosexual.

[RachelChristine]

We just read Prince Caspian last week and I had the same reaction! I spent an hour or two reading different webpages on the origin of that phrase. It actually took me out of the moment in the book.

[Asympotically fat]

Originally Posted by AboutAsWeirdAsYouCanGet

On a related note, where does the term " go suck an egg come from? What the heck is egg sucking anyway? I remember Miss Rachel Lynde in Anne of Green Gables telling Marilla about an adopted boy who used to suck eggs.

I'd hazard a guess that it may be related to the phrase "Teaching your grandmother to suck eggs"

[Thudlow Boink]

Originally Posted by sqweels

The modern usage is clearly short for "this sucks cock", meaning it's just as bad as if it were a homosexual.

"Clearly"?

[Leo Bloom]

Originally Posted by Aspidistra

I was assuming an oral sex component of the origin. My evidence would be that when people are trying to intensify their use of the term they often turn to things like "sucks donkey cock" or "sucks the sweat off a dead man's balls". I admit I have no particular evidence that these elements were present when the term was originated, but they seem to go together quite naturally in many people's minds.

When I was in school in the 70s, we used to identify some girl or other as being able to suck a watermelon through a picket fence.

[jtgain]

I always heard that it was an insult between men. If you told a man that he "sucks" that meant that he sucked dick and was therefore a homosexual. This, of course, was back in the stone ages when there was something wrong with that.

I could be wrong, though.

[handsomeharry]

In the Adventures of Tom Sawyer, c. 1876, IIRC, Tom says that anybody that does "cant remember" will suck eggs.

That's all I got.

Best wishes,
hh

[Blake]

Originally Posted by Leo Bloom

When I was in school in the 70s, we used to identify some girl or other as being able to suck a watermelon through a picket fence.

In which case you confalted two different expression, as kids often do.

"Able to eat watermelon/apple through a picket fence" means a girl has a pronounced overbite/buck teeth, for obvious reasons.

"Able to suck a golf ball through a length of garden hose" means a girl has impressive sucking ability, for obvious reasons.

"Able to suck a watermelon through a picket fence" doesn't make any sense at all.

[Leo Bloom]

Originally Posted by Blake

In which case you confalted two different expression, as kids often do.

"Able to eat watermelon/apple through a picket fence" means a girl has a pronounced overbite/buck teeth, for obvious reasons.

"Able to suck a golf ball through a length of garden hose" means a girl has impressive sucking ability, for obvious reasons.

"Able to suck a watermelon through a picket fence" doesn't make any sense at all.

[Weedy]

There's also the phrase 'sucks hind teat' that describes the runt of a litter.