Women are the fairer sex. Your opinions?

In My Humble Opinion
1

Especially on what this means?

I got into a conversation the other day with a coworker. I’ve talked about this guy before. Very proud, chest-thumping liberal. He’s behind every progressive, cause and likes to talk to me about the latest thing on John Stewart, Keith Olbermann, and Rachel Maddow. I’m not nearly as passionate about these things as he is, though I do consider myself politically liberal. I think he’s drawn to me because there are many conservatives–secret and “out”–on our floor and he’s the type that has to talk politics every day or his brain explodes.

I let him borrow the book “Positive Thinking” by Barbara Ehrenreich, who essentially blames the focus on the “think it and it shall come” meme for a host of societal ills. He said he read every chapter except the one on breast cancer (for reasons unknown to me) and asked me to summarize it. Ehrenreich talks about her own diagnosis and how the cult of “positive thinking” among fellow sufferers and others tried to pressure her to swallow her well-justified feelings of anger, sadness, and frustration. She also mentions the infantalization and hyper-feminization of breast cancer patients, who are practically smothered in pink teddy bears, coloring books, pamplets on beauty tips (so you don’t look ugly as you die), and other crazy distractions so that no one actually pays attention to their own medical treatment. Then she talks about how the focus is always on the survivors, as if they did something special and heroic that the “non-survivors” didn’t do.

My coworker thought Ehrenreich was completely wrong about all of this. Of course women would get cuddly teddy bears. They LOVE those things. Of course they would appreciate beauty tips. They LOVE looking beautiful. And it’s not weird that breast cancer fundraising is so ubiquitous, overshadowing practically all the other cancers that people get and die from every day. Men like breasts and are more comfortable talking about them than ovaries or uteri or other reproductive parts–including their own. We, apparently, all like breasts. And then he said the Live Strong campaign probably makes just as much money. I dunno. I know about the Live Strong bracelet thing that was trendy a few years ago. But I would be shocked if Live Strong was as well known, or as well-funded as the Susan J. Komen Foundation.

I tried to explain to him my discomfort with the whole teddy bear thing, forgetting the other mess (just so everyone knows, if I’m dying and someone tries to put mascara on me, I’m coming back to haunt their ass). Women aren’t children. Sure, there may be lots of women who like stuffed animals, and would like the comfort they might provide in a sick bed. I have no strong disliking of teddy bears myself, but I wouldn’t want people giving them to me, especially in a strange ploy to fight my disease. I would want comforting items in addition to information. Like, what kind of drugs are flowing through my bloodstream? What might be the side-effects? What’s my prognosis really? I wouldn’t want to be coddled and protected, like I’m frail and helpless. I’d want to be treated like a grown-ass adult.

He laughed in my face and said that I didn’t understand women. Consider that for a moment. A woman, myself, does not understand women. How patronizing.

But that’s besides the point. His point was that women will always be treated differently (i.e., like they’re frail and helpless) because “that’s just how it is”. Women, he said, are the fairer sex. They like when their man wins them a big ole teddy bear at the state fair. They like having the door held for them, the chair pulled out for them, and they like silly things. I told him that I don’t like these things and he again said I just don’t understand women.

It seemed like we might have been talking past one another, so I offered him a scenario based on a real incident. My sister’s in-laws had a conniption fit when my sister allowed her oldest daughter (who was 14 at the time) to walk less than a mile up the street to the 7-11. Now my siblings and I grew up walking miles all over Atlanta, in bad and good neighborhoods, always completely unafraid. But my sister’s quiet, suburban subdivision was deemed too dangerous by her in-laws. I asked my coworker was this reasonable or not, and he wasted no time saying that it was reasonable. Don’t I know how many women get raped? Wouldn’t I feel horrible if my neice had been kidnapped on her way to the 7-11?

Previous to this conversation, I thought this guy was intelligent, but I suddenly felt like I was talking to a complete idiot.

So I asked him if he’d have a problem sending his 14-year old son to the 7-11. Of course he said wouldn’t. I didn’t ask him this, but I’m guessing he is not aware that there are predators out there looking for 14-year-old boys too. And it’s not like a 14-year-old boy is a muscle-bound superman. If someone’s going to “get” him, they will get him.

But no, he wouldn’t have a problem with his son roaming the neighborhood. Because women, he reminded me in his patronizing yet confident-he was-not-being-sexist way, are the fairer sex.

Then there’s another coworker who likes to compliment me on how “frail and delicate” I am. The other day he did this and I abruptedly corrected him with, “I am NOT frail.” How in the hell would that be a compliment? Maybe some women eat that kind of shit up, but I ain’t the one.

So I guess I’m curious. What is your definition of “fairer sex?” I always thought this referred to looks, but this guy seemed to think it meant everything from being helpless babies to liking pretty things Do you see sexist implications in believing women are the “fairer sex”, or do you think it’s pretty innocuous? Also, would you have a problem with your teenaged daughter (or whomever) walking down the street? I’m not talking miles, but less than a mile. Not in a “bad” neighborhood, but just a regular neighborhood. Because it is my opinion (and I told this guy so) that the more we inculcate girls with the idea that they are constantly under threat of attack because they are “frail and delicate”, then we shouldn’t be surprised when they develop anxiety disorders, don’t move out of their hometowns or go traveling by themselves, or take on other advantageous risks that many men do without thinking twice. I told this guy that I’m no more risk-averse than an average single guy my age. I walk the city streets at night, go traveling alone, go to the public bathroom ALONE, and although I’m conscientious the whole time, I refuse to live in fear. I thought he would be impressed, but instead he just shook his head. Like I just didn’t get it.

Maybe he’s right. I want to find out.

2

I hear this kind of thinking a lot, especially in debates about the supposed shaping of the human brain from evolutionary pressures. The thinking seems to be that because of the different levels of effort that each gender requires for reproduction (men require just the time to have sex while women require nine months), evolutionary pressure would favor aggression among men and passivity among women. To which I have always responded with an unthinkable word. But, in more depth, the theory fails because it doesn’t account for observation. Or, as monstro said, some men apparently believe that they know women better than women know themselves.

The idea that feminine behavior is somehow natural and innate can be debunked by looking at how standards change over time. Just read books from the nineteenth century and compare how women were expected to behave then to the current standard. Obviously there’s been a huge change, from women being expected to faint in public frequently then, but obviously not any more.

Anyhow, I personally think that women who want to climb mountains or join the Marines should climb mountains or join the Marines, and women who want to cuddle with teddy bears should cuddle with teddy bears.

Even accepting the fact that folks generally don’t want to talk about ovarian cancer as much, what about cancers of the mouth, throat, stomach, liver, intestines, and so forth? I honestly find the whole breast cancer movement that’s sprung up in the past decade quite strange. Nothing wrong with raising funds or having support groups fro breast cancer, of course, but why exactly is it elevated so high over every other disease?

3

Well, I agree with most of what you said, but I have to say a woman who walks alone at night IS at a higher risk. How many violent rapists are men? Most of them. How many of those man rape women? Most of them. How many rape men? Much, much fewer.

Has nothing to do with your main point, though.

4

I guess my first comment is that I never interpreted the “fairer” in “fairer sex” to mean “fragile.” I always thought it had to do with being more appealing to the eye.

Second, I have the impression this coworker is very, very set in his definition of what makes a “normal” woman, and he dismisses anyone who doesn’t fit within that very narrow range. Which is, really, just sad.

I don’t have any kids, but I don’t think I’d draw a huge distinction between a 14-year-old girl or boy in terms of walking around a neighborhood. I’m not trying to suggest that there are no differences at all between the sexes, and I do believe that women are targeted more often than men by some creeps and criminals. But I do think that women are just as smart as men and are capable of figuring out how best to protect themselves.

5

What about 16? 18? 24? 30?

6

The fairer sex is often used as a euphemism for the frailer sex. On the other hand, it is true that a lot of women like to be taken care of.

As for the disparity between a daughter and a son–it is unfortunate, but the majority of predators are male, and inherent homophobia is often enough to protect male children, but is absent in female children. Many young females do not have a built in reversion for older or bigger men, while most guys do. It’s not that they can’t be overpowered, but that the woman will be more easily tricked.

Later in life, it seems that women actually overcompensate, and assume even non-threatening men are going to rape them or whatever. But, early on, girls seem to be the more easily tricked. My theory, besides what is mentioned above, is that women’s better emotional reasoning from the more complete corpus callosum can overshadow their logical thinking.

The reason I would find the guy less intelligent after this conversation is that he doesn’t recognize his own biases, or even offer possibly legitimate reasons for them. Heck, even the differences I observed may not be biological at all. The corpus collosum may have nothing to do with it, and it’s all just socialization. But even if it is biological, it’s still stupid to tell women they have to embrace overemotional thinking by telling them they are inherently frail.

7

Great marketing. Cancers of the “womanly parts,” especially the very visible breasts, used to be considered very shameful, and “defeminizing” especially if they had to be removed. A lot of women have a whole ton of self-esteem wrapped up in their breasts, even if they didn’t realize it until they needed a double mastectomy with a whole lot of scarring. And, a lot of men have big issues dealing with a woman who’s gone through that. This attitude also made it very hard to talk about breast exams, worries about your breasts, and so on.

The push for making breast cancer something you can talk about, something that gets turned into a “woman power!” movement, really helped remove the shame and despair from such a diagnosis.

The problem is, of course, that it’s not the biggest killer of women. Heart disease is worse, but underdiagnosis of that is still rampant in women - especially because women’s heart attack symptoms can differ from men’s, and men even aren’t that good at figuring out that they’re having a heart attack. Plus heart disease - and another major killer of women, lung cancer - tends to suffer from the perception that it’s almost certainly “self-inflicted” and thus not so worthy of sympathy and concern and cheerleading.

8

The OP is so frail that she wants us men to come into the thread and tell her that she’s right.

:smiley:

9

I don’t really understand your question. As I said, I think women are perfectly capable of safeguarding themselves. I would be less likely to let a younger child (regardless of sex) wander a neighborhood alone. But the OP’s question started with a teenager, in which case, assuming we’re talking about a child I had raised and given the tools to protect him or herself, I’d be fine with it. My confidence is only going to increase with the child’s age, regardless of sex.

10

Well, given the same dose of genes to produce melanin, women will be fairer (lighter in pigmentation) than equally genomed males. That is because the presence of male hormones results in greater expression of melanin producing genes. You might have realized this when you look at folks in the mall, but of course there are the gene deception practices of hair dyes, etc.

In a more serious tone, I have male friends who are essentially afraid of my wife. She is smarter and more intellectually aggressive than they are, and doesn’t hold back in verbal sparring. It is like they don’t know what to do with her!..I personally talk back, and wouldn’t have it any other way. Give me an intelligent strong woman any day.

However…I do admit to being old fashioned. I like treating my female friends in a gentlemanly way (doors opened, and little cussing and farting when compared to my male friends), and they seem to accept my old fashioned ways, 'cause they know that I see them as intellectual, professional, and emotional equals. I’ve gone through my adult life valuing my female friends, and they are usually closer to me than the guys. Guy friends are reserved for building things, watching sports, and such. Female friends are for being more human with…

Not sure this is helpful…

11

I’m sorry, I misunderstood. I thought you were saying that there are enough child predators who would go for either sex that at 14, it doesn’t matter, so I was asking about older women who would not be targeted by such pedophiles, but by adult predators who are far more likely to target women.

Sorry for misunderstanding you.

12

I strongly disagree.

Physically, generally speaking, men are stronger, more experienced, and superior fighters than women.

Additionally, the vast majority of women give less thought and are less apt to be prepared to defend themselves. As an example, a man is 10X as likely to get a CCW and carry a gun for his self defense than is a female. In every state, 10X as many men get CCW permits to carry concealed weapons than females.

13

I agree that some of the biggest perpetrators of the “women are frail and helpless” idea are women themselves. And I’m sure that biology plays are a role. Women are generally smaller and physically weaker than men are. Combined with the fact that bearing and raising children spends a lot of time and energy that can’t be used for making a whole lot of money, it makes sense that men would be expected to be natural “care-givers”, for lack of a better word.

But it also seems like there’s also a “chicken-egg” thing going on. If you are a girl raised to believe that frail and helpless are attractive qualities in women, or you simply learn that “frail and helpless” gets you more attention than “strong and capable” does, then you will cultivate those qualities (and downplay others) so that you will find a mate that responds favorably to those qualities. Guys do the same thing, except in the opposite direction.

Looking at the animal kingdom makes me question the “inherent quality” argument. Most female animals are larger and stronger than their male counterparts. Lions chill under the trees while the lionesses are giving the beat-down to some hyenas. Female bees sting you, while the males drone away in the hives, making honey. Female mosquitos tear the hell out of every breathing thing, while the males sip nectar cocktails over in the flower beds, probably with extended pinky fingers. And of course, we all know that male birds possess the elegant plummage and fine feathers that the large, dull female birds lack.

So why did the script flip for humans, I wonder?

But most victims of crime are male. We would never know that if we just watched CNN, but it’s true. Yes, a female is more likely to be raped than a guy, but an individual is more likely to be physically assaulted than raped. Why did my coworker immediately jump to rape, then? His argument was based on sexist emotion, not reason.

You think little girls are more gullible than little boys? That differs totally from my experience. I’ve observed little girls tending to be much more shy than boys. Boys tend to talk to adults more bluntly and boldly question what they’re doing or who they are, which invites interaction with strangers (like helping them look for that lost puppy that pedophiles are always searching for). I don’t see little girls doing that quite as much. I see them asking for a parent’s permission before doing anything with a stranger. Little girls are raised to be “good”. Boys are allowed to be “boys”.

14

Protecting yourself does not just involve carrying weaponry and knowing how to fight. It also involves being very conscious of your surroundings and not putting yourself in unnecessarily dangerous situations. I do not believe that women are less prone than men to be aware of potential danger or to take steps to avoid it.

15

Is it because women are inherently “poor” fighters or because they have been taught that fighting is unwomanly? I’ll never forget the time, a few years ago, my older sister wanted to take a silly picture of me and I made the “mistake” of going “grrrr” and flexing my biceps. “Girls don’t do that,” she whispered discretely, making me feel like I had just pulled down my pants and revealed a strap-on. I wasn’t even fighting, just baring my teeth, and I got pressure to “behave” appropriately. And I was a grown woman at the time!

I’ll give you the size and strength differential. But IMHO low fighting prowess is a handicap caused by society, not by biology.

I’d like to see statistics for how many of those gun-toting men actually use their weapons to defend themselves in the act of a crime. Because I’m betting (but I have no cites) that women are more likely to whip out that Mace and use it successfully than a man is to whip out a gun to ward off a criminal. But I dunno.

16

In fact, in my experience it’s the men who aren’t looking out and who don’t see potential danger. Several years ago when I was a graduate assistant I drove a coworker back to his parking space because it was raining and he parked in a deck several blocks away. He said “Wow, I love parking garages at night! They’re such amazing postmodern pieces of art!” and I said “You mean the Nightmare Danger Rapeplex?”

17

While I think I’m generally on your side of the argument re: cultural conditioning and social roles ( your “friend” sounds incredibly patronizing, unless he thought he was joking ), you have me scratching my head slightly here. On the one hand you acknowledge women are biologically smaller and weaker than men, then you point out a bunch of critters where the opposite is true and ask why not us.

Well, because humans aren’t hyenas ;). In most mammals ( as opposed to, say, most raptors ), males are bigger and stronger. This absolutely applies to lions by the way - while females do most of the hunting, males play a larger security role and are the ones much more likely to chase off or kill Spotted Hyenas ( where, very unusually, the females are in fact bigger, stronger and more dominant than males ).

Of course I’m pretty sure you know all this, hence my confusion as to what you are getting at. Are you just talking inherent fragility here, as opposed to size and strength? If so, I suspect that women are just a little more fragile on average ( lighter bones, or for example female athletes seem much more prone to ACL injuries ), but I doubt it is as large a difference as in sheer bulk.

Or did you mean something else by “inherent quality?”

18

In addition to the factors others mentioned, I think another big factor is that breast cancer is relatively common AND relatively treatable as cancers go. Because of this, the breast cancer community has a lot of survivors out there to speak out and advocate for the cause.
Yes, people definitely do die of metastatic breast cancer still, but many breast cancer patients catch it early enough to have a good prognosis and even among those who do have metastatic breast cancer there are often treatments that can keep the cancer under control for years even if it will eventually kill them (as you see with Elizabeth Edwards).
In contrast, ovarian cancer is mostly diagnosed late in the disease process and therefore often fatal (unfortunately including my own mother, who survived breast cancer but went on to die of ovarian cancer).
Likewise, something like stomach cancer or pancreatic cancer is often fatal within a pretty short period of time so there just isn’t time for survivors to speak out en masse about their illnesses even though I definitely feel these diseases deserve just as much attention as breast cancer.

19

It’s taking longer than we thought:

Lions are bigger and stronger than lionesses; although lionesses usually team up to do the pride’s hunting, they’ll mostly steer clear of hyenas if outnumbered enough, or thieve off them if they can - and the determining factor may be whether the male lions show up to help out.

Female bees sit in the hive laying eggs. Workers are sexless though anatomically female (they can lay unfertilised eggs but cannot mate). Drones are stingless because the sting is an adapted ovipositor, not because males are wusses. They have little to do with honey production not least because they are outnumbered hundreds to one by the workers - their purpose to the species is to deliver sperm.

Female mosquitoes suck blood not because they are badass but because they are unable to mature eggs otherwise.

Most female animals are *not *larger and stronger than their male counterparts; it’s untrue of apes, bears, cattle, dogs, elephants, foxes, giraffes, horses, ibex, jaguar, koalas, lions, etc, etc…

And while cock pheasants have gaudier plumage than hens, the dull females aren’t large - they’re slightly smaller than the males. Most farm fowls I can think of have males at least as large as females - ducks, geese, chickens, swans (okay, nobody farms swans… anyhoo, the cob’s at least as big as the pen). Most songbirds I see out of my window too. I understand some raptors have bigger females though.

Summary: I think you’re better at gender-political rants than zoology. :stuck_out_tongue:

20

Also, DOES NOT show that women are at higher risk at night. Women are at higher risk of rape. Men are at risk of death. Slimy-arse drunk bastards coming out of pubs at midnight don’t go looking for women to pick fights with - they go looking for men. Many times, this ends with an innocent guy who wasn’t looking for any trouble (and who thought they were safe because - hey - they’re a guy )set-upon by a bunch of yobbos and in hospital, in a coma, or in the morgue.

Men have twice the rate of death by violence that women do. I don’t want to get raped, but I also don’t want to get bashed, and even more, don’t want to get killed