Ships in the Early 1900s

[Babale]

Let's say that in the year 1900, I was a rich man. Let's also say that I wanted to send an expedition to some remote corner of coastal Africa. What sort of ship would I charter? Would the ship drop the expedition off and come back at a specified point to pick them up again, or would the ship wait for the expedition near the coast? How would people get from the ship to land?

How big would the risk of piracy be? I find it hard to imagine one of those iconic metal ships being raided, but did it happen? And would that even be the type of ship I'd hire?

What could sink this type of ship? Would a coral reef be enough?

[Xema]

Originally Posted by Babale

What sort of ship would I charter?

Probably a coal-burning steamship of size appropriate for your expedition.

Would the ship drop the expedition off and come back at a specified point to pick them up again

Probably, unless the expedition was quite short. You need a good reason to keep a ship idle for long.

How would people get from the ship to land?

Probably in boats carried on board and launched from davits.

What could sink this type of ship? Would a coral reef be enough?

Given a sufficiently awkward encounter, a coral reef is enough to sink just about any ship.

[Snnipe 70E]

Originally Posted by Babale

Let's say that in the year 1900, I was a rich man. Let's also say that I wanted to send an expedition to some remote corner of coastal Africa. What sort of ship would I charter? Would the ship drop the expedition off and come back at a specified point to pick them up again, or would the ship wait for the expedition near the coast? How would people get from the ship to land?

How big would the risk of piracy be? I find it hard to imagine one of those iconic metal ships being raided, but did it happen? And would that even be the type of ship I'd hire?

What could sink this type of ship? Would a coral reef be enough?

It all would depend on how much money you wanted to spend.
1900 could be steam or sail. Large or small.

You could do a bare boat charter. You provide the crew and all the supplies the ship is under your control stays or goes at your pleasure.

You could do a full boat charter. According to the charter you sign the ship will drop you off and pick you up. Or it will stay and wait for you.

If no dock the by boats.

I do not believe piracy was a problem around 1900. If so I would assume the ship would carry the necessary protection.

Going aground can sink any ship. Collision at sea is a danger. All the dangers that sink sips apply.

[Slithy Tove]

For its size, Africa doesn't have a lot of great natural harbors, and by 1900 the few it does have were hardly remote and uninhabited. You'll need to sneak your party pretty far inland to escape notice by the imperial powers, so the best bet would be to send them off on a small steam launch you've towed behind your main steamship.

Most inland expeditions would hire dozens if not hundreds of bearers to haul all the stuff they'd need, including boats that would have to be carried past the rapids. But When Cornelius Vanderbilt attacked the rapids in Cental America, he chose to use a steamer, with winches anchored to the banks of the river to haul his boat over the rough stretches. That would allow a lower profile than a huge expedition.

You'll have to go back further than 1900, though. By then Africa was carved up and held by some very jealous Europeans. Most of them would kick your guys out, but the Belgians, keen to hide the atrocities they were committing, would more likely "disappear" your employees.

Wht could sink your ship? One of my favorite Google Earth features is the shipwreck locator. Enable that and look around the map of Africa at what really happened.

[Babale]

Alright, thanks for all the answers guys! Africa was just an example, not exactly what I had in mind. Still, information about African politics may not be useful, but it sure is interesting.

A few quick questions:

Would a medium-sized ship be made of wood or iron? I've seen images/sources describing both, but 1900 seems to be muffled. Would most steam ships have sails too? Could they make an intercontinental journey with just steam, if the sails/masts were disabled?

In a medium-sized steamship, how well-protected is the driver? Is the cabin protected by wood, glass, or iron?

How hard is it to get one of these ships out of control? If someone got in a fight with the pilot, and the wheel of the ship (these ships used wheels, right?) was thrown around wildly, would the ship go out of control? Enough to hit a reef?

[Johnny L.A.]

This 111.5-foot vessel is (or was) based in the local marina.

El Primero

EL PRIMERO was built in 1893 for Edward Hopkins by the Union Iron Works in San Francisco at a cost of $250,000.00 at that time. The luxury yacht was built of steel and finished in teak and white mahogany. She was rated of the First Rank and the only vessel so rated on the West Coast. She is 111.5 feet long with an 18 foot beam and was equipped with a triple expansion steam engine of 225 HP. EL PRIMERO carried a crew of ten and had quarters for twenty-two persons.

Based on the text on the link, I think the page was made in 1998. I last looked at El Primero around 2004, and it was in need of restoration.

[Babale]

Originally Posted by Johnny L.A.

This 111.5-foot vessel is (or was) based in the local marina.

El Primero

Based on the text on the link, I think the page was made in 1998. I last looked at El Primero around 2004, and it was in need of restoration.

Great! Just the right time period. So, based on the pictures, it had an exposed cabin and sails.

So all I need to know now is if one of those could make an intercontinental journey with no sails and what would happen if the wheel was thrown off.

[Johnny L.A.]

Originally Posted by Babale

Great! Just the right time period. So, based on the pictures, it had an exposed cabin and sails.

From the article:

EL PRIMERO carried a crew of ten and had quarters for twenty-two persons. There were six magnificent staterooms with double beds, washstands and all toilet accessories. The master bedroom had a fireplace.

I read a better article years ago, but I can't seem to find it now. I don't recall if it had sails to back up the steam engine.

This page has interior photos.

Another article

An article from our neighbourhood paper

The ship was used in Puget Sound and what is now called the Salish Sea. I suspect it could make the voyage to Africa under the right conditions, but I couldn't be authoritative on that.

[Johnny L.A.]

Too late to edit.

From the The Northern Light article:

In fact, it originally carried stand-by sails in case the 225 horsepower triple expansion steam engine failed.

Also: There is some confusion about the length. In my first post I quoted 111.5 feet, but other articles say it's longer. I assume the first length is the length at the waterline.




.

[aruvqan]

Originally Posted by Johnny L.A.

This 111.5-foot vessel is (or was) based in the local marina.

El Primero

Based on the text on the link, I think the page was made in 1998. I last looked at El Primero around 2004, and it was in need of restoration.

Hm, wasn't she up for sale in the mid to late 90s? I seem to remember a listing, where it was claimed she was 80% restored and an asking price of just under $100 000? I just remember the motor yacht I am thinking of was used as some sort of admiralty vessel back in WW2. I remember thinking to myself at the time when I spotted it in the magazine that we could have bought that for what we paid for the farm, and not had to worry about having to sell if mrAru got shipped off to a new duty station because all the bases he has served at have had berthing cheaper than civilian docks =)

[Xema]

Originally Posted by Snnipe 70E

You could do a bare boat charter. You provide the crew and all the supplies the ship is under your control stays or goes at your pleasure.

I'm gonna guess that the number of outfits willing to hand over an expedition-sized vessel to an unknown captain and crew has never been large, and in 1900 was vanishingly small.

[Erdosain]

Originally Posted by Babale

How big would the risk of piracy be? I find it hard to imagine one of those iconic metal ships being raided, but did it happen?

Coincidentally, right now I'm reading a non-fiction account of a solo round-the-world voyage that occurred in 1895-1898. It's just one guy in sailboat (so he was extremely vulnerable) but he was chased by pirates off the coast of Morocco and was boarded by Native American raiders in the Strait of Magellan. Also, he changed his course from the Mediterranean and the Red Sea after being advised of pirates in both bodies of water.

Originally Posted by Sailing Alone Around the World by Joshua Slocum

Now, my course to Gibraltar had been taken with a view to proceed up the Mediterranean Sea, through the Suez Canal, down the Red Sea, and east about, instead of a west route, which I finally adopted. By officers of vast experience in navigating these seas, I was influenced to make the change. Longshore pirates on both coasts being numerous, I could not afford to make light of the advice.

I'm not sure what, exactly, a longshore pirate is, but it sounds like the piracy situation was similar to what it is today: large ships and military are probably okay, smaller vessels are at risk.

[aruvqan]

I have always loved motor vessels like her .... beats the living hell out of the modern crap that looks so ultra modern.

Couldn't you see Theda Bara and Rudolph Valentino sharing a bottle of champagne on the deck, with Humphry Bogard and Peter Lorre bickering over a Maltese Falcon statuette while Sidney Greenstreet chortles in the background while headed in to port in Morocco?

[Snnipe 70E]

Originally Posted by Xema

I'm gonna guess that the number of outfits willing to hand over an expedition-sized vessel to an unknown captain and crew has never been large, and in 1900 was vanishingly small.

At one time bare boat charters were common. bond and insurance was required. the insurance co. would set the rates based on the experience of the person chartering the boat. The flag that the ship is flying would determine what liciences the mates and engineers would need, so they would not be unknown.

[Snnipe 70E]

Originally Posted by Babale

Alright, thanks for all the answers guys! Africa was just an example, not exactly what I had in mind. Still, information about African politics may not be useful, but it sure is interesting.

A few quick questions:

Would a medium-sized ship be made of wood or iron? I've seen images/sources describing both, but 1900 seems to be muffled. Would most steam ships have sails too? Could they make an intercontinental journey with just steam, if the sails/masts were disabled?

In a medium-sized steamship, how well-protected is the driver? Is the cabin protected by wood, glass, or iron?

How hard is it to get one of these ships out of control? If someone got in a fight with the pilot, and the wheel of the ship (these ships used wheels, right?) was thrown around wildly, would the ship go out of control? Enough to hit a reef?

A medium sized ship steamship of the late 1800's would probably be iron. Few sail ships had steam, but some of the early ones did. By 1900 it was either steam or sail. On an ocean going ship the wheel houses were enclosed. steal on top and sides with glass to the front. No spinning the wheel (help) full one way would not put the ship out of control. It would just turn not skid. could it damage the ship? Only if the ship was in a restricted passage. If near a reef and turned to the reef it could hit it. With the helmsman (pilot) occupied if anything is near if could hit it. Depending on the speed weight of the ship and how faar the helm was turned would determin how fast it would turn. A small freigter at full speed 10 to 16 knotts takes a long time to turn.

[Babale]

Alright, let's say as the (iron) ship is making her approach to land, she hits a reef and is badly damaged (Breached hull), forced to make landfall. Any way of repairing her on the beach? How long would this take? If not, are the sailors just marooned until another ship comes by?

[Snnipe 70E]

Originally Posted by Babale

Alright, let's say as the (iron) ship is making her approach to land, she hits a reef and is badly damaged (Breached hull), forced to make landfall. Any way of repairing her on the beach? How long would this take? If not, are the sailors just marooned until another ship comes by?

It depends.
If the bottom is torn completely off there she sits. If just a few major holes that cause major flooding. Depends on the skill of the crew and damage done. If the ship has acess to wood and steel plates where a patch could be put on then it could be pumped out and sailed to a near port.

Could take from a few days to months depends on the amount of damage. The wave damage caused until the ship could get refloated. And the damage to engineering spaces. The torrie Cannon was never refloated.

[Claverhouse]

You want a tramp steamer. A ship's broker will cater for everything, including weapons. Go to Edmund Twister, 102 Leadenhall St., London and mention my name.


Actually it's a tiny office at the back of an alley behind that address.



And Mr. Twister, he dead. Ask for the managing director, Mr. Toby Crook*.



* * Of the Islington Crooks.

[Babale]

Thanks guys! One more quick and slightly off-topic question.

What is the range of a Very Flare Gun made in this era? If you fire one at the right angle, how far would the flare go?

[Snnipe 70E]

Originally Posted by Babale

Thanks guys! One more quick and slightly off-topic question.

What is the range of a Very Flare Gun made in this era? If you fire one at the right angle, how far would the flare go?

Do you mean a Berry rather than a Very? for that you will have to ask a Deckie

[Babale]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Very_flare

What is a Berry?

[Princhester]

Originally Posted by Xema

I'm gonna guess that the number of outfits willing to hand over an expedition-sized vessel to an unknown captain and crew has never been large, and in 1900 was vanishingly small.

You guessed wrong. Bareboat or demise charters are commonplace. I have half a dozen files in my office drawers concerning them and I don't do much chartering work. Common as dirt.

[Claverhouse]

Originally Posted by Babale

Thanks guys! One more quick and slightly off-topic question.

What is the range of a Very Flare Gun made in this era? If you fire one at the right angle, how far would the flare go?

I didn't even know they were used before WWI, yet since Mr. Very died in 1907...

Basically, at night in No Mans Land, one shot straight up to illuminate your surrounding area for artillery etc., and made oneself known to enemy snipers. I would have guessed 200 feet. But a modern Very Pistol goes further than that: High Performance 12-gauge red aerial flares (average 7 seconds, up to 500 ft, 16,000 candela.

I really doubt that 500 feet was possible --- or desirable --- with such earlier models; but I'd ask that on a gun forum if I were you. American gun enthusiasts are not shy about revealing unplumbed depths of minutiae on models or performance that has very little to do with just shooting at someone for fun or profit.


The right angle is straight up. At a right angle the projectile would drop into the sea prolly before flaring.

[carnivorousplant]

Originally Posted by aruvqan

Humphry Bogard

Humphrey Bogart.

[Xema]

Originally Posted by Princhester

You guessed wrong. Bareboat or demise charters are commonplace. I have half a dozen files in my office drawers concerning them and I don't do much chartering work. Common as dirt.

Well yes - I've done this a number of times myself, in the Caribbean & elsewhere.

My point was about a ship of a size suitable for an expedition to Africa, around 1900 - a very different thing from a modern yacht suitable for a holiday. Among other issues, there's the fact that the steam plant on any such vessel will be more or less one-of-a-kind with quirks that require a certain level of experience if it's to be operated safely & reliably. (This has been the case for all the steam plants of which I have experience.)

I thus think it's naive to imagine that an expedition leader can expect to show up and take command of a largeish ship sans experienced crew. Out of curiosity, what's the largest vessel available for crewless charter in your files?

[Snnipe 70E]

Originally Posted by Xema

Well yes - I've done this a number of times myself, in the Caribbean & elsewhere.

My point was about a ship of a size suitable for an expedition to Africa, around 1900 - a very different thing from a modern yacht suitable for a holiday. Among other issues, there's the fact that the steam plant on any such vessel will be more or less one-of-a-kind with quirks that require a certain level of experience if it's to be operated safely & reliably. (This has been the case for all the steam plants of which I have experience.)

I thus think it's naive to imagine that an expedition leader can expect to show up and take command of a largeish ship sans experienced crew. Out of curiosity, what's the largest vessel available for crewless charter in your files?

The expedition leader is not going to take command of the ship without the proper Masters licience and he will not beable to run the engine room unless he has a Chief Engineers licience. Plus he will need a 1st, 2nd and 3rd mates and engineers. Unless the ship is small. Plus he is also going to need the rest of the crew. Someone with the proper liecence should be able to operate the plant.

[Xema]

Originally Posted by Snnipe 70E

Someone with the proper liecence should be able to operate the plant.

Right - once he has some experience with it. It would not be realistic to expect to show up and say: here's my license, my engineers and my snipes - so thanks, and we'll be underway for Africa tomorrow morning.

For a modern license analogy, even the most advanced license does not of itself qualify a pilot to fly a particular airplane. He'll require a thorough checkout for even a simple aircraft; a complex one probably requires a course of instruction that gets into the fine detail of its systems, how they interconnect, and how to handle a host of problem that might arise.

The problem is worse for ships, since unlike aircraft it's largely true that no two are the same.

[Xema]

Originally Posted by Snnipe 70E

Plus he will need a 1st, 2nd and 3rd mates and engineers. Unless the ship is small. Plus he is also going to need the rest of the crew.

Quite right. And the ship owner will almost certainly want to ensure that all these folks are qualified and understand the power plant they will be operating. IOW, a substantial crew familiar with the ship will be needed.

I think this is a strong argument that a "bareboat" charter of a vessel of the type in question is impractical and unlikely.

[Snnipe 70E]

Originally Posted by Xema

I think this is a strong argument that a "bareboat" charter of a vessel of the type in question is impractical and unlikely.

Any engineer worth his salt will go down into the engineroom before his watch to check it out.

I got dispatched to my first 3rds job Saturday morning. Graduated from the Academy in the afternoon. Went aboard Sunday morning and Sailed that afternoon. Stood my first watch as senior watch officer on the 8-12 watch. It was expected that I would know how to run the plant without anyone holding my hand.

It is possable to sign a bare boat chater one day and sail as soon as the ship is loaded. If the ship is cold iron it will be more difficult because when the new crew signs articles the first job will be lighting off the plant. But if a bareboat charter is signed with an existing crew then the expedition leader would only have to go to the ship see which crew members he wanted to keep. Replace the ones he does not. Load the ship and set a time to sail. The captian would check with the Chief Engineer and if it was OK they would sail.

[Xema]

Originally Posted by Snnipe 70E

if a bareboat charter is signed with an existing crew then the expedition leader would only have to go to the ship see which crew members he wanted to keep.

If your definition of "bareboat" charter includes the ability to keep existing crew members, then I'd say we agree on what's practical. (I'd always understood "bareboat" to mean "no crew included".)

[Quartz]

Originally Posted by Babale

Let's say that in the year 1900, I was a rich man. Let's also say that I wanted to send an expedition to some remote corner of coastal Africa. What sort of ship would I charter?

You'd most likely charter a steamship like the ones on which my grandfather served (he was sunk several times in WW1, and we have a letter from him describing his ship hitting a mine). 1900 was well after the end of the tea clipper era, but there were clippers still in operation.

However, piracy was still very much a concern. I have three swords from that era. Family history has it that they were taken from pirates.

[Snnipe 70E]

Originally Posted by Xema

If your definition of "bareboat" charter includes the ability to keep existing crew members, then I'd say we agree on what's practical. (I'd always understood "bareboat" to mean "no crew included".)

"bareboat" means the crew is not provided by the owner. But if the ship has an exixting crew the day before the charter is a ative there is no point if firing them. It means paying the crew and being sure everyone has the proper papers is the responsibility of the person with charter. They can keep the ones they want and replace the ones they do not.
If there is no crew when the charter is signed then there are two choices ask the owner for recomendations for a crew or go down to the shippping hall with a list of positions that you will want and have them dispatch a crew. And any engineer with a Department of Commerce licience (remember we are talking 1900) should be able to light off the plant and get the ship running. May take them all day to trace out the lines before starting.

[Lumpy]

Originally Posted by Erdosain

I'm not sure what, exactly, a longshore pirate is, but it sounds like the piracy situation was similar to what it is today: large ships and military are probably okay, smaller vessels are at risk.

High seas piracy (the kind associated with the Caribbean or the Barbary Coast) had been more or less wiped out by the British Navy, but there were still coasts where passing ships would be targeted by locals operating short range coastal boats. Smugglers (including slavers!) might be encountered at times.

To reiterate what's already been said, by pre-WW1 steamers were used for most purposes because of the dependability of not needing to rely on wind, although sailing ships were still used on a handful of routes where it made economic sense. Both steamers AND sailing ships of any great size would have steel hulls by this time. Range was enough of a factor that "coaling stations" were economically and militarily very important. Reefs were and are still dangerous because concentrating the weight of the ship on one small portion of the hull can crack the ship's spine.

Also, to spell out something alluded to upthread: most of the interior of sub-Saharan Africa is a vast plateau, meaning that going in from the coast at one point or another you encounter either rapids or falls. So getting a riverboat or launch past that point is going to be a major endeavor.

[Princhester]

Originally Posted by Xema

Well yes - I've done this a number of times myself, in the Caribbean & elsewhere.

My point was about a ship of a size suitable for an expedition to Africa, around 1900 - a very different thing from a modern yacht suitable for a holiday. Among other issues, there's the fact that the steam plant on any such vessel will be more or less one-of-a-kind with quirks that require a certain level of experience if it's to be operated safely & reliably. (This has been the case for all the steam plants of which I have experience.)

I thus think it's naive to imagine that an expedition leader can expect to show up and take command of a largeish ship sans experienced crew. Out of curiosity, what's the largest vessel available for crewless charter in your files?

Your experience may be limited to yacht bareboating but that isn't what a commercial maritime person is talking about when they talk about a demise or bareboat charter.

I have demise (or bareboat) charters in my files for capesize bulkers that could fit a few modest expeditionary steamboats from 1900 in one of their holds (and they have five or more holds). Demise charters are a common method of structuring ownership and operational arrangements for commercial vessels. That is true now, and it has been true for centuries.

I have a copy of Scrutton on Charterparties on my desk. It's a legal textbook, not a history book, so it doesn't say how long demise charters have been in use as such, but a quick look shows that it cites cases concerning such charters dating from the mid 19th century, and I have no doubt that it only goes back that far because cases before that are somewhat irrelevant to modern practice, not because such charters were not used far further back than that.

Originally Posted by Xema

Quite right. And the ship owner will almost certainly want to ensure that all these folks are qualified and understand the power plant they will be operating. IOW, a substantial crew familiar with the ship will be needed.

I think this is a strong argument that a "bareboat" charter of a vessel of the type in question is impractical and unlikely.

Professional seafarers take over vessels with which they are not familiar regularly. They would always have a handover for preference, but that is not always an option. A handover may well not be very long (three to four days).

I don't know what legal structure might be adopted for the situation outlined by the OP. There are quite a number couple of possibilities but I think two are most likely.

The first is that the expedition leader would time charter a vessel ie charter a vessel with master and crew. In this scenario the actual owner would probably have responsibility for the operation of the vessel (including for maintenance, insurance etc) and the master and crew would ultimately report to the actual owner not the expedition leader. However, the master would act to the orders of the charterer as regards the activities to which the vessel is put.

However, another entirely practical possibility is that the expedition leader would want to have greater control, but not have the funding to buy a vessel outright. In such a scenario he might well demise charter a vessel: in this way he has total control of the vessel and the master and crew but does would not have to come up with the purchase price outright. Demise charters are commonly used in this way today. The actual owner would be someone with essentially a finance interest in the vessel but who wouldnt have wanted to run it day to day. Crewing issues and risk issues under this scenario are trivial and dealt with commonly in the industry. Risk issues are covered by insurance and crewing issues are covered by hiring crew off the previous operator and/or just having a handover/familarisation period.